I need to be a nonbeliever to set myself free. Could someone help me?

[idav]

I am completely undecided when it comes to the existence of God and the afterlife. I see nothing more than an ongoing debate of various religious and secular views. Many different people have many different answers. Some people are materialists who think that once you die, that is it. Some think that there is a God out there watching and judging you.

But I see no definite answer here. So that means I am open to all the various views of the afterlife and God. This means I am, unfortunately, open to the possibility of Christianity being true. This is a most hated religion to me that I wish to not be open to at all as a possibility. That way, I won't have to worry about going to hell over every little thing I do wrong in this God's eyes.

I detest Christianity so much because the Christian God is no way to develop a personal spiritual relationship with anybody. Someone who judges your way of life you like to enjoy as sinful is a sure way to turn someone off and reject you. That is no way to make friends. That will only make enemies. But a God who supports your way of life and is completely cool with you having parties, sex, etc. would be the most awesome God of all.

I have no desire whatsoever to live for others or to serve anybody. That would include this Christian God. I am only here to be happy and to have a wonderful time. That is the only life worth living to me. The God I would obviously want would be one who is on my side and is completely fine with me living as I want as long as I don't harm/torture others.

He would be a God who would be fine with me having a wonderful time here in this life and then send me up to his heavenly kingdom for all eternity which would be an even greater life that is far more blissful, fun, etc. I would prefer to have that personal God I mentioned because I obviously don't want to die. I want to live on happy for eternity. But at the same time, I wish to not believe in the Christian God or any other condemning God. Any other way of living that does not allow me to be happy, have a wonderful time, and live as I want is simply a life not worth living to me at all. It is a detestable life I would wish to have nothing to do with.

This would be a personal God meant for me who is completely fine with me being the judge of myself and my own way of life. He would allow me to set my own personal goals and expectations rather than expecting and demanding me to meet his commands. Therefore, the best bet is for me to either become a full materialist where I don't believe in any God at all, or to somehow believe in this personal God I have created.

That way, I would have escaped the horrible possibility of Christianity and other religions that condemn you and your personal way of life. But I don't know how to get there. I am completely stuck in this undecided mindset and I am not sure any argument presented will convince me since there will always be other people with their arguments.

But I am at least willing to try. So I will engage in a debate here as a means to try and convince me. Hopefully it works out in my favor and hopefully I will finally be completely free from all that religious dogma out there that condemns you and makes you obey certain rules.

I tend towards pantheism which to me reconciles theism and atheism. I don't want people to be convinced but at least be more knowledgeable that their are more ways to look at god and the world that can relate to science in very profound ways. Science has found God just doesn't have a way to say it, atomic power, time dilation and quantum mechanics are a few scientific clues as to the power of it all.

 

[SomeRandom]

I.have.read.all.the.debates.I.could,.but.I.still.remain.undecided...I.thought.that.there.might.be.some.way.to.get.me.out.of.this.undecided.mindset.and.to.actually.become.fully.convinced.of.scientific.materialism.or.some.other.view.of.God/afterlife.that.does.not.involve.condeming.religious.dogma.

Look it's up to you to become decided. No one can really do that for you. I'm sorry, but if you are unconvinced from both sides, there's not a whole lot anyone can really do about that.
But religion, philosophy and beliefs require some modicum of feeling. They are not scientific disciplines.
The only time one can truly view things 100% rationally is when one is conducting scientific research. But that's because it's a requirement of the job. And even then, 100% rationality is not guaranteed. We are all human. You have to let your feelings come into the equation or nothing will ever satisfy you. Life is not rational, humans are not rational even death is not rational (more or less.) Why do you expect this of debates regarding religions and the afterlife?

Perhaps seek out different religions or other philosophies. Christianity and materialism aren't the be all end all. Even dogma isn't a particularly clear cut thing. Or just be an agnostic. It's up to you.

 

[jonathan180iq]

The debate I wish to have is one that tries to convince me that Christianity and all other condemning religions are false

Name three things about any religious view that you KNOW to be true... If you can't do that then you have a problem, without anyone having to tell you anything at all.

People shouldn't have to convince you that something is true or false. We humans impart value onto things based on our preferences and biases. There's a reason that people worship trees, believe in sasquatch, ancient aliens, and magic healing hand powers... We are a delusional lot of weirdos. None of those things have any real validity to them, but that doesn't stop millions of people from basing their lives around them... Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Jainism, Tai Chi, Yoga, Crystal Healing, Chakras, Wiccans, Jews, Scientologists, Raelians... all of these people believe in things that are not based in reality at all. But so what? If you want to believe in a personal god who only wants what's best for you, and doesn't limit you actions in a condemning way, then do it. Create your own brand of Christianity and roll with it. How else do you think it came to pass that so many denominations exist? You won't be the first person to create their own personal version of a religion - and you certainly won't be the last.

I would prefer to have that personal God I mentioned because I obviously don't want to die.

I hate to break it to you, but you're going to die anyway. We're all going to die one day. You might as well accept that and come to terms with it so you can finally start living.

I want to live on happy for eternity. But at the same time, I wish to not believe in the Christian God or any other condemning God.

Name one historical figure who has lived for eternity...

You can't do that, can you? Since there's no evidence than eternal life is even a thing, don't you think it's a little silly to hold out hope for it?

These things aren't real, man... You're essentially saying that you want an eternal life (something that doesn't exist) and that you want to achieve it by believing in a god that you find more appealing. (There's also no good evidence that gods exist at all...) So this whole thought process is really irrelevant, don't you think?

Any other way of living that does not allow me to be happy, have a wonderful time, and live as I want is simply a life not worth living to me at all.

So live however you want... What's the dilemma?

It is a detestable life I would wish to have nothing to do with.

Then have nothing to do with it...

You do realize that it's you who is keeping you from this supposed dream life of yours, right? No one is stopping you from doing anything. There's no god who reaches down and tugs your shirt in the opposite direction when you start to "go down the wrong path." All trepidations and anxieties and hesitations on your part are entirely of your own creation.

 

[Tabu]

You say you want to break free , but are looking for an attractive cage to fit in (religions).
Just have a spiritual connection with God , and check if your thoughts , words and deeds are beneficial to yourself ,to your immediate and distant surroundings , happiness will automatically follow.

 

[Reggie Miller]

I disagree. If hell was actually created then why did god create it?

What does your research tell you in answer to that question?

 

[Luciferi Baphomet]

What does your research tell you in answer to that question?

What research?

 

[RedDragon94]

It appears to me that you seem to hate dogma and so on. I think it's totally beyond my ability to prove anything to you. Also, even as a total atheist you will still have dogma I presume, unless you become a total nihilist. If you think murder, child molestation, racism and classism are all wrong, then you have dogma. You live, brother, in a world of rules and you will end up following them whether consciously or not.

I know this is going back, but I feel it needs to be said for clarity's sake. The only thing I would add to this debate is this, dogma =/= reason & morality.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

I am completely undecided when it comes to the existence of God and the afterlife. I see nothing more than an ongoing debate of various religious and secular views. Many different people have many different answers. Some people are materialists who think that once you die, that is it. Some think that there is a God out there watching and judging you.

But I see no definite answer here. So that means I am open to all the various views of the afterlife and God. This means I am, unfortunately, open to the possibility of Christianity being true. This is a most hated religion to me that I wish to not be open to at all as a possibility. That way, I won't have to worry about going to hell over every little thing I do wrong in this God's eyes.

I detest Christianity so much because the Christian God is no way to develop a personal spiritual relationship with anybody. Someone who judges your way of life you like to enjoy as sinful is a sure way to turn someone off and reject you. That is no way to make friends. That will only make enemies. But a God who supports your way of life and is completely cool with you having parties, sex, etc. would be the most awesome God of all.

I have no desire whatsoever to live for others or to serve anybody. That would include this Christian God. I am only here to be happy and to have a wonderful time. That is the only life worth living to me. The God I would obviously want would be one who is on my side and is completely fine with me living as I want as long as I don't harm/torture others.

He would be a God who would be fine with me having a wonderful time here in this life and then send me up to his heavenly kingdom for all eternity which would be an even greater life that is far more blissful, fun, etc. I would prefer to have that personal God I mentioned because I obviously don't want to die. I want to live on happy for eternity. But at the same time, I wish to not believe in the Christian God or any other condemning God. Any other way of living that does not allow me to be happy, have a wonderful time, and live as I want is simply a life not worth living to me at all. It is a detestable life I would wish to have nothing to do with.

This would be a personal God meant for me who is completely fine with me being the judge of myself and my own way of life. He would allow me to set my own personal goals and expectations rather than expecting and demanding me to meet his commands. Therefore, the best bet is for me to either become a full materialist where I don't believe in any God at all, or to somehow believe in this personal God I have created.

That way, I would have escaped the horrible possibility of Christianity and other religions that condemn you and your personal way of life. But I don't know how to get there. I am completely stuck in this undecided mindset and I am not sure any argument presented will convince me since there will always be other people with their arguments.

But I am at least willing to try. So I will engage in a debate here as a means to try and convince me. Hopefully it works out in my favor and hopefully I will finally be completely free from all that religious dogma out there that condemns you and makes you obey certain rules.

You aren't ready. Everything about this post suggests you still believe but are simply mad at a deity that is very real to you. No amount of reason can assail blind faith.

 

[Reggie Miller]

What research?

Oh. Then we've established that you need to research your question.

 

[Luciferi Baphomet]

Oh. Then we've established that you need to research your question.

K then.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

Look it's up to you to become decided. No one can really do that for you. I'm sorry, but if you are unconvinced from both sides, there's not a whole lot anyone can really do about that.
But religion, philosophy and beliefs require some modicum of feeling. They are not scientific disciplines.
The only time one can truly view things 100% rationally is when one is conducting scientific research. But that's because it's a requirement of the job. And even then, 100% rationality is not guaranteed. We are all human. You have to let your feelings come into the equation or nothing will ever satisfy you. Life is not rational, humans are not rational even death is not rational (more or less.) Why do you expect this of debates regarding religions and the afterlife?

Perhaps seek out different religions or other philosophies. Christianity and materialism aren't the be all end all. Even dogma isn't a particularly clear cut thing. Or just be an agnostic. It's up to you.

Since feelings are irrational, then there is no reason whatsoever to rely and go by them when it comes to deciding what is true. As long as the rational conclusion to something is around 80 or 90% likely to be true, then I would be convinced of that. Scientific materialists say that their conclusion that God/afterlife does not exist is a rational conclusion that is in that high percentage area.

But I have looked and looked and I just don't see that. Like I said, I see nothing more than a philosophical debate. Materialism is a philosophy and I just don't see how it is the definite rational answer I would be looking for.

Name three things about any religious view that you KNOW to be true... If you can't do that then you have a problem, without anyone having to tell you anything at all.

People shouldn't have to convince you that something is true or false. We humans impart value onto things based on our preferences and biases. There's a reason that people worship trees, believe in sasquatch, ancient aliens, and magic healing hand powers... We are a delusional lot of weirdos. None of those things have any real validity to them, but that doesn't stop millions of people from basing their lives around them... Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Jainism, Tai Chi, Yoga, Crystal Healing, Chakras, Wiccans, Jews, Scientologists, Raelians... all of these people believe in things that are not based in reality at all. But so what? If you want to believe in a personal god who only wants what's best for you, and doesn't limit you actions in a condemning way, then do it. Create your own brand of Christianity and roll with it. How else do you think it came to pass that so many denominations exist? You won't be the first person to create their own personal version of a religion - and you certainly won't be the last.


I hate to break it to you, but you're going to die anyway. We're all going to die one day. You might as well accept that and come to terms with it so you can finally start living.


Name one historical figure who has lived for eternity...

You can't do that, can you? Since there's no evidence than eternal life is even a thing, don't you think it's a little silly to hold out hope for it?

These things aren't real, man... You're essentially saying that you want an eternal life (something that doesn't exist) and that you want to achieve it by believing in a god that you find more appealing. (There's also no good evidence that gods exist at all...) So this whole thought process is really irrelevant, don't you think?


So live however you want... What's the dilemma?


Then have nothing to do with it...

You do realize that it's you who is keeping you from this supposed dream life of yours, right? No one is stopping you from doing anything. There's no god who reaches down and tugs your shirt in the opposite direction when you start to "go down the wrong path." All trepidations and anxieties and hesitations on your part are entirely of your own creation.

I don't believe anything to be true when it comes to any view of the afterlife, God, and the paranormal. Like I said, I am completely undecided and open to all views. But for me to believe anything based on feeling is irrational. Since there is no reason to believe based on how I feel and what I want to be true, then there is no way I can believe what I want. Lastly, you say that there is no afterlife. But, again, I am undecided and do not know.

You aren't ready. Everything about this post suggests you still believe but are simply mad at a deity that is very real to you. No amount of reason can assail blind faith.

How is being undecided blind faith? How is it believing anything? I clearly said I don't believe anything and am completely open to all views. I am just simply mad at this Christian God in case He is real. I never said that I believe He is real. If a rich person was aware of the possibility (a possibility that could be very likely, but not sure) that all of his/her money would be taken away from him/her, then it makes perfect sense for him/her to be angry knowing this. But it does not mean that he/she actually believes that his/her money would be taken away.

 

[SomeRandom]

Since feelings are irrational, then there is no reason whatsoever to rely and go by them when it comes to deciding what is true. As long as the rational conclusion to something is around 80 or 90% likely to be true, then I would be convinced of that. Scientific materialists say that their conclusion that God/afterlife does not exist is a rational conclusion that is in that high percentage area.

But I have looked and looked and I just don't see that. Like I said, I see nothing more than a philosophical debate. Materialism is a philosophy and I just don't see how it is the definite rational answer I would be looking for.

Belief in the after life, belief in the supernatural, belief in God is not scientific. It is not based on science or data or reason. Conversely the opposite is true but for a different reason. Since there's not physical evidence for God or the afterlife then many scientists would not believe in such things.
Because they are skeptical by nature they want to see things not just believe in them.

But both sides rely on emotion to an extent. Neither position is wholly scientific. After all there are many Scientists with varying religious and philosophical beliefs seperate to their work.

One cannot ever decide anything without emotion.
Say a pregnant lady has cancer and must abort in order to receive life saving treatment. Both options are entirely dependent on her emotions. Sure she is receiving professional advice but her decision will depend on many factors. Her beliefs her upbringing and how she views her life. Even the belief in the afterlife or lack there of.

One cannot possibly decide things based entirely on rationality. To think in such a manner is unreasonable and ironically irrational.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

Belief in the after life, belief in the supernatural, belief in God is not scientific. It is not based on science or data or reason. Conversely the opposite is true but for a different reason. Since there's not physical evidence for God or the afterlife then many scientists would not believe in such things.
Because they are skeptical by nature they want to see things not just believe in them.

But both sides rely on emotion to an extent. Neither position is wholly scientific. After all there are many Scientists with varying religious and philosophical beliefs seperate to their work.

One cannot ever decide anything without emotion.
Say a pregnant lady has cancer and must abort in order to receive life saving treatment. Both options are entirely dependent on her emotions. Sure she is receiving professional advice but her decision will depend on many factors. Her beliefs her upbringing and how she views her life. Even the belief in the afterlife or lack there of.

One cannot possibly decide things based entirely on rationality. To think in such a manner is unreasonable and ironically irrational.

When it comes to materialism, I just see a correlation between brain and consciousness. Yes, damaging the brain does damage certain mental states, but that doesn't rule out the possibility that the brain is as what Stuart Hameroff or Roger Penrose says it could be.

As for deciding if materialism is true or if the afterlife/paranormal is true, that does not require any emotional judgment at all. This is instead a purely rational case. The scenario you've presented is emotional since it is a moral decision as to whether the mother should kill the baby to save her life or not.

But when it comes to things such as determining if the Earth is flat or not, there needn't be any emotional judgment here at all. Even if your mind was conditioned to liken to a certain worldview due to your upbringing and conditioning, you can still completely look past all of that and see things from a purely rational point of view.

In other words, even though you might feel a certain worldview is true due to your upbringing or conditioning, you can simply acknowledge that feeling as being irrational and look past it and determine what is actually true with a purely rational mindset.

 

[SomeRandom]

When it comes to materialism, I just see a correlation between brain and consciousness. Yes, damaging the brain does damage certain mental states, but that doesn't rule out the possibility that the brain is as what Stuart Hameroff or Roger Penrose says it could be.

As for deciding if materialism is true or if the afterlife/paranormal is true, that does not require any emotional judgment at all. This is instead a purely rational case. The scenario you've presented is emotional since it is a moral decision as to whether the mother should kill the baby to save her life or not.

But when it comes to things such as determining if the Earth is flat or not, there needn't be any emotional judgment here at all. Even if your mind was conditioned to liken to a certain worldview due to your upbringing and conditioning, you can still completely look past all of that and see things from a purely rational point of view.

In other words, even though you might feel a certain worldview is true due to your upbringing or conditioning, you can simply acknowledge that feeling as being irrational and look past it and determine what is actually true with a purely rational mindset.

Not necessarily. The scenario also takes into account human instinct. Humans are instinctively protective of their young, even willing to die for them. This is a natural phenomenon. It is not rational, but scientifically proven in any case. So does every mother who dies for her child do so because of emotions, because of upbringing or because we are merely following our own survival strategy? Is it a combination? All? None?
And abortion is only a morality concern for pro life Christians. Many faiths see such scenarios as either dependent upon nuance or even ethical.

Morality and ethics are human constructs and can be subject to all sorts of irrationality or rationality, depending on your point of view. For example a Christian might say murder is against God's word and therefore immoral. A secularist might say murder is not congruent to overall human survival and is therefore not acceptable in society (except for self defense) and perpetrated by individuals who pose an overall threat to the community. Therefore the logical conclusion would be to isolate said individual through prison. But in saying that, as a tribal species, murder used to be common for a number of reasons. Jostling for control, territorial disputes and possibly mating rights (albeit killing in that scenario might have been more incidental.)
So if we survived thousands of years with that threat anyway, why is it not acceptable in civilized society? Isolating Psychopaths and sociopaths is a logical thing to do. But they are not the only ones to commit murder. What of crimes of passion? Those hearken back to our hunter gatherer days. Are we punishing sexual selection mechanisms? If we purely go by logic and reason, then instinct should not control us like that. But it does, often.
Why do we think of such a crime as "bad" or "immoral?" Nature does it on a regular basis, there is no real morality with nature, it just is what it is. So do we find such acts distasteful and then rationalize it by using words like ethics, morality and overall safety?

The earth is demonstratively not flat. God, the afterlife and things are supernatural. By definition they are outside of the realms of science, data and evidence even. You cannot definitively prove one way or the other, you can only decide for yourself. This inherently has some modicum of feelings involved. Atheists are humans, they feel, they rationalize and they think like humans. Not like robots. Same is said of the religious. Though they may be more prone to going by what they feel. Philosophy is somewhere in the middle. Not necessarily rational, but not necessarily fueled by emotions. It's a way of figuring out the world, one's place in it and how one feels about the impending mortality of oneself.

 

[Deeje]

I don't need a God. All I would want is an eternal blissful heaven the way I want it to be and for me to be happy in for all eternity. I would definitely want to believe in that. But if that goal cannot be attained, then I would want to be convinced of materialism. If I had the choice to just die and be nothing more or to have Christianity and other condemning religions to be true, I would choose to die and be nothing more.

What sort of religious upbringing could make a person that selfish?
All I hear is "I want" like some three year old throwing a tantrum.

What about what God wants? Is that important to you at all? Did it ever occur to you that there are valid reasons for everything that God does? He tells us the whole story in the Bible from start to finish, and allows us to be part of his defense. We can counter all those claims that the devil has made in accusing God of being a heartless despot with no love for his human children, but not if we have been fed all the wrong information. If you begin with a wrong premise, then everything you think is based on a faulty foundation. Go outside, close the door, turn around and start knocking....this time with no pre-conceived ideas about anything, and with a willingness to put aside your own concerns and learn about the real issues of the situation we all find ourselves in....its not all about us.

I have no dogma carried by any religious beliefs. I just simply have my own personal moral view that if I were to go out harming and torturing other innocent people, that would be wrong. It would be a view that I would of had all along, religious or not.

Then doesn't that show that you have no wicked intentions concerning your fellow humans? How is that a bad thing? We are all made in God's image and a conscience goes along with that. If you have a working conscience, be grateful! That is a great start!

But anyway, don't you think there could be a way to convince me through a debate? I know this can be done. Some people have managed to be convinced through debates and I see no reason why I should be an exception.

Lets do it. Ask your questions and see how the Bible answers....it just may surprise you how wrong your original ideas really are........the God you paint is not the God of the Bible...he is the product of some sick religion. He is not all about punishment and judgment.....he is all about love and mercy. He wants "all to attain to repentance" so that he can shower faithful ones with all the blessings you seek. (2 Peter 3:9)

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

What sort of religious upbringing could make a person that selfish?
All I hear is "I want" like some three year old throwing a tantrum.

What about what God wants? Is that important to you at all? Did it ever occur to you that there are valid reasons for everything that God does? He tells us the whole story in the Bible from start to finish, and allows us to be part of his defense. We can counter all those claims that the devil has made in accusing God of being a heartless despot with no love for his human children, but not if we have been fed all the wrong information. If you begin with a wrong premise, then everything you think is based on a faulty foundation. Go outside, close the door, turn around and start knocking....this time with no pre-conceived ideas about anything, and with a willingness to put aside your own concerns and learn about the real issues of the situation we all find ourselves in....its not all about us.


Then doesn't that show that you have no wicked intentions concerning your fellow humans? How is that a bad thing? We are all made in God's image and a conscience goes along with that. If you have a working conscience, be grateful! That is a great start!



Lets do it. Ask your questions and see how the Bible answers....it just may surprise you how wrong your original ideas really are........the God you paint is not the God of the Bible...he is the product of some sick religion. He is not all about punishment and judgment.....he is all about love and mercy. He wants "all to attain to repentance" so that he can shower faithful ones with all the blessings you seek. (2 Peter 3:9)

Think of a cool and calm respectful individual who just wishes to live their own personal way of life that they want. I wouldn't consider that a spoiled child. Just simply someone who is focused on their own ways, judgments, goals, etc. and detached from everyone else and their judgments/opinions. I am detached and don't care about what this God of the Bible wants. I am only here to be happy and to have a wonderful time. That's the only life worth living to me.

It does not matter how you try to justify God as all loving and all just through a debate, that will never justify Him sending someone kind like me to hell. I am a kind person and that is all that should be expected of me. I should not be expected to dedicate my life or to serve anybody. To judge me as sinful because of that is plain wrong and judgmental of me on God's part.

Like I said, I have absolutely no desire whatsoever to live for or to serve anybody. There should be no problems with that as long as I am not going out harming and torturing other innocent people. The fact that this God would harm and torture me over my way of life by sending me to hell is the serious problem here. The fault is not with me, but with this God.

It is said that only very very few will manage to make it to God's heavenly kingdom and that there will be millions upon millions sent to hell. That's not because there are so many harmful and cruel wicked people in the world, but rather because we are all akin to poor and pitiful innocent children with a small dirt spot on our shoes not welcome and condemned to eternal torture just because we made a small dirt stain of sin in a filthy rich father's mansion that he wishes to keep perfectly polished.

 

[Deeje]

Think of a cool and calm respectful individual who just wishes to live their own personal way of life that they want. I wouldn't consider that a spoiled child. Just simply someone who is focused on their own ways, judgments, goals, etc. and detached from everyone else and their judgments/opinions. I am detached and don't care about what this God of the Bible wants. I am only here to be happy and to have a wonderful time. That's the only life worth living to me.

These, to me, are the words of a very immature person. Can I ask how old you are?
"Me-ism" is what is killing the world. Who do you know that is living a wonderful trouble free life? Even those who have it all materially, worry about an economic downturn where they could lose everything they have. The wealthiest people are not the happiest....it is the spiritual people who have the most joy. Materialism is empty.

It does not matter how you try to justify God as all loving and all just through a debate, that will never justify Him sending someone kind like me to hell.

There is no "hell"...that concept was invented by the church to keep the ignorant masses in check.
The Bible's "hell" (sheol, hades) is man's common grave....nothing more. There is no one alive in there. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)

I am a kind person and that is all that should be expected of me. I should not be expected to dedicate my life or to serve anybody. To judge me as sinful because of that is plain wrong and judgmental of me on God's part.

"So listen up God...these are the terms of my life and nothing less will be acceptable...OK" Very mature.

Like I said, I have absolutely no desire whatsoever to live for or to serve anybody. There should be no problems with that as long as I am not going out harming and torturing other innocent people. The fact that this God would harm and torture me over my way of life by sending me to hell is the serious problem here. The fault is not with me, but with this God.

Do you even want to know how wrong you are about this "hell" you speak of? "It's all God's fault" is a winey reply from someone who has never considered the options. Learn what the Bible says, not what religion teaches.

It is said that only very very few will manage to make it to God's heavenly kingdom and that there will be millions upon millions sent to hell. That's not because there are so many harmful and cruel wicked people in the world, but rather because we are all akin to poor and pitiful innocent children with a small dirt spot on our shoes not welcome and condemned to eternal torture just because we made a small dirt stain of sin in a filthy rich father's mansion that he wishes to keep perfectly polished.

Again, do you want to know how wrong you are about this "hell" hangup of yours?

Can I ask that you please read through your post and observe how many contradictions you have made including those in your OP? You don't want a debate at all......you just want someone to tell you how to have your cake and eat it too. Sorry, that is a fantasy worthy of Walt Disney.

When you want to get into a real debate and to consider the possibilities......just let me know.

 

[SomeRandom]

There is no "hell"...that concept was invented by the church to keep the ignorant masses in check.
The Bible's "hell" (sheol, hades) is man's common grave....nothing more. There is no one alive in there. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)

Not to derail the thread or anything, but is this an official JW stance?
Merely curious.

 

[Deeje]

Not to derail the thread or anything, but is this an official JW stance?
Merely curious.

It is what the Bible teaches...so yes.

 

[SomeRandom]

It is what the Bible teaches...so yes.

Interesting.