I respect first responders.

[an anarchist]

@Revoltingest
All of your exposing corrupt and dirty cops has inspired me to make this thread. Not that I disagree with you or anything about the problems people have related to the police. I just want to share another perspective.

I am an anarchist. So, often times people will be like "So! You must not want any police or firemen or anything, huh?" This is not true. In a hypothetical anarchist society, there will still be the need for essential services. Anarchists simply argue that government is not required for essential services, such as first responders.

I'm very familiar with the life of a cop. My pops is the oldest patrol officer in town, been in law enforcement for decades. Just last night he was venting to me that he came across a marine who was riding a motorcycle and hit a semi. My dad was complaining how bloody his clothes got as he unsuccessfully tried to resuscitate the tore up corpse of the marine. Then he stated, as usual, "And I got to live with all these images in my head!" Just last night he was telling me this. This is just one of dozens of times he has come home from work and has shared the most disturbing experiences. He won't go to therapy despite my constant urging. Being a cop will definitely make you need therapy.

I have law enforcement training. My dad put me in a program as a teenager and I could've been in the border patrol by 18 instead of the usual age of 21 thanks to my certification. And it's true, corrupt practices are there. I was literally trained on how to take advantage of the fact that most citizens are unaware that they can refuse to have their car or person searched in many cases. Us kids were literally taught by law enforcement agents how to properly intimidate civilians into allowing us to search their car and stuff even when we don't have probable cause. That was when a light bulb first went off in my head that maybe that line of work wasn't for me.

Regardless. I don't think government should exist, right? But absent of government, the individuals who make up the essential services monopolized by government currently would still exist. Even though people work for the government and are statists, I can still respect some aspects of what they do, such as cops.

My dad is no political philosopher. He's not questioning whether government is inherently immoral and how we can bring about a stateless society. He recognizes a need that society has that he can help with, so he is a cop. I respect that, even if he works for the filthy government.

@Revoltingest , and others, I wonder, do you respect cops? I actually do, ironically enough.

 

[Revoltingest]

@Revoltingest , and others, I wonder, do you respect cops? I actually do, ironically enough.

Merely being in a particular profession, eg, cop, soldier,
teacher, President, doesn't mean they deserve respect.
I reserve it for worthy individuals.
And as you so clearly pointed out about police training,
it involves coercion, trickery, & intentional illegal acts.
Bad cops aren't just the ones who are bad all the time.
Being a "bad cop" includes the ones who only occasionally
commit or merely enable others' crimes.

 

[an anarchist]

Merely being in a particular profession, eg, cop, soldier,
teacher, President, doesn't mean they deserve respect.
I reserve it for worthy individuals.
And as you so clearly pointed out about police training,
it involves coercion, trickery, & intentional illegal acts.
Bad cops aren't just the ones who are bad all the time.
Being a "bad cop" includes the ones who only occasionally
commit or merely enable others' crimes.

I suppose it'd be possible to classify all cops as "bad cops". Well it'd be easy for me to accept that, as an anarchist. They enforce all the laws, moral and immoral alike. I'm quite sure my dad has arrested potheads over the years before it's legalization. Their checks are from taxes, which I view as theft. And many other ways I can go at it to justify my calling all cops "bad cops"

 

[an anarchist]

I suppose it'd be possible to classify all cops as "bad cops". Well it'd be easy for me to accept that, as an anarchist. They enforce all the laws, moral and immoral alike. I'm quite sure my dad has arrested potheads over the years before it's legalization. Their checks are from taxes, which I view as theft. And many other ways I can go at it to justify my calling all cops "bad cops"

But at the same time, I can call all cops good cops, no?
Well, let me think about it actually. I remember in my training when another light bulb went off. We were in the classroom and the BP agent asked us in which order we prioritize life. There was: law enforcement agents life, civilians life, and bad guys life. I raised my hand and said "The civilians life comes first, then the law enforcement agents life, and then the bad guys life." And I was wrong! They said "No! Your life, and the life of other agents, ALWAYS comes before the lives of civilians."
So I was gonna say that officers are hypothetically gonna put their life's on the line for you. Which is still true. But I know they are also trained not to prioritize civilians. Being told that in the classroom was a pivotal moment of understanding.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Merely being in a particular profession, eg, cop, soldier,
teacher, President, doesn't mean they deserve respect.
I reserve it for worthy individuals.

I once read something that has stuck with me since, because I found it profoundly true: "Being a soldier or a cop doesn't automatically make you a hero or villain. Often, your actions are merely a function of the orders you're given."

 

[Revoltingest]

I suppose it'd be possible to classify all cops as "bad cops".

I don't go that far.
I'll venture that 50%+ are bad.

Well it'd be easy for me to accept that, as an anarchist. They enforce all the laws, moral and immoral alike. I'm quite sure my dad has arrested potheads over the years before it's legalization. Their checks are from taxes, which I view as theft. And many other ways I can go at it to justify my calling all cops "bad cops"

Government & taxes are useful evils.
And they inexorably arise.
So the issue isn't should government exist,
but rather how do we get it to serve us
instead of itself.

 

[Revoltingest]

Often, your actions are merely a function of the orders you're given."

....and orders refused.

 

[Debater Slayer]

....and orders refused.

And the majority simply don't or can't refuse orders, which means many "heroes" could have just as well done atrocious things on a different day under different orders.

 

[Revoltingest]

And the majority simply don't or can't refuse orders, which means many "heroes" could have just as well done atrocious things on a different day under different orders.

Fortunately, individuals can choose otherwise.

 

[an anarchist]

Fortunately, individuals can choose otherwise.

What's that old saying?

"What if there was a war and nobody showed up?"

 

[Revoltingest]

What's that old saying?

"What if there was a war and nobody showed up?"

Of course, most march to orders.
They say things like....
"Duty!"
"Social contract!"
"Be a man!"
"It's the law!"

The individual can choose otherwise.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yes, I respect cops. I respect all people who are doing their jobs to the best of their ability and serve their community. Obviously there's individuals who fail at that. The cops here I've interacted with, including federal marshals, are pretty professional and caring in my experience. They were usually kind, even if they couldn't help me in the ways I wanted. They're just people. I think demonizing cops in general is just disgusting.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

But at the same time, I can call all cops good cops, no?
Well, let me think about it actually. I remember in my training when another light bulb went off. We were in the classroom and the BP agent asked us in which order we prioritize life. There was: law enforcement agents life, civilians life, and bad guys life. I raised my hand and said "The civilians life comes first, then the law enforcement agents life, and then the bad guys life." And I was wrong! They said "No! Your life, and the life of other agents, ALWAYS comes before the lives of civilians."
So I was gonna say that officers are hypothetically gonna put their life's on the line for you. Which is still true. But I know they are also trained not to prioritize civilians. Being told that in the classroom was a pivotal moment of understanding.

Some of that attitude is still in line with an attitude of service.

When I was doing race marshalling, they emphasized that we shouldn't put ourselves at risk even to help an injured driver, because if we get hurt, suddenly there are two victims instead of one, but one less person to help.

However, my impression is that a lot of cops go beyond this to a "thin blue line" tribalistic mentality, where their allegiance is to the police rather than to the public that they're supposed to serve.

 

[averageJOE]

You can "respect" cops all you want, but the reality is is that they are trained to NEVER respect or trust you. They are trained, from day one at their academy and throughout their careers, to place their own safety and the safety of their fellow cops above all others. They will not hesitate to disrespect you, humiliate you, and strip you of all your dignity all in the name of "officer safety".

I spent 11 years in the Military Police. Half the soldiers in my Unit were cops in their full time jobs. I trained with cops from many, many departments from different states. I had the unfortunate privilege of getting tot listen to all these cops, from all these different departments, tell each other stories that they would NEVER tell their spouses and families. And I'm not talking about horrific stories of finding a dead baby. No...they would go on and on and on and on telling stories about knowingly and proudly abusing people, falsely arresting people, harassing people, and so on. AND gave each other advice on who to fabricate reports on said actions.

So yeah..."respect" them all you want. In their minds, they don't serve you, me, or the community. They only serve themselves and each other. That's just the reality.


I

 

[SomeRandom]

I respect first responders (and I typically include ambulance workers and firefighters when I say this) insofar as they have made a conscious decision to be in a profession that is inherently dangerous. Both physically and mentally.

I think that decision is worthy of some semblance of respect

But, I don’t think that respect should go into blind hero worship.
Nor do I think criticising police actions should wander into demonisation.

I see this mentality of conflating those thoughts, in both sides. I think it’s far more complex.

For example. Just recently in my country a police officer tasered a 93 year old woman, severely injuring her. This occurred because she (presumably in a state of dementia) held out a knife in a “threatening way.”
The officer in question has since been stood down, is now not getting paid as is my current understanding (finally some good news, eh @Revoltingest?) and has since been charged with various crimes.
Said officer has rightly been vilified in our local and national news media and many are calling him “scum” and “dog.” (Which are among the most polite insults I’ve heard regarding this case, trust me lol)

I think this instance calls into question the police procedures and what ought to change about police training in my country. I do not think it is a reflection of the whole of the police force. But it is most certainly a terribly ugly blight in urgent need of repair.

I could also point to various stories regarding local heroism. Police and other emergency services going above and beyond to help out locals in need during our worst disasters (hurricanes, floods, national fires etc) of which there are an abundance of stories to choose from.

Do I think this requires me to hero worship said responders? No. I can praise those individual actions whilst maintaining a safe distance.

It’s not an either or thing. And I think we need to establish proper boundaries when it comes to discussions such as this

 

[Revoltingest]

I respect first responders (and I typically include ambulance workers and firefighters when I say this) insofar as they have made a conscious decision to be in a profession that is inherently dangerous. Both physically and mentally.

I think that decision is worthy of some semblance of respect

But, I don’t think that respect should go into blind hero worship.
Nor do I think criticising police actions should wander into demonisation.

I see this mentality of conflating those thoughts, in both sides. I think it’s far more complex.

For example. Just recently in my country a police officer tasered a 93 year old woman, severely injuring her. This occurred because she (presumably in a state of dementia) held out a knife in a “threatening way.”
The officer in question has since been stood down, is now not getting paid as is my current understanding (finally some good news, eh @Revoltingest?) and has since been charged with various crimes.
Said officer has rightly been vilified in our local and national news media and many are calling him “scum” and “dog.” (Which are among the most polite insults I’ve heard regarding this case, trust me lol)

How dangerous?

What are America’s most dangerous jobs? Search our database of deadliest occupations

People who tend livestock are among those who face the most danger. How does your profession rank for workplace death rates?

www.usatoday.com

Do tree trimmers, farmers, loggers, roofers deserve more respect
because their jobs are more dangerous?

I think this instance calls into question the police procedures and what ought to change about police training in my country. I do not think it is a reflection of the whole of the police force. But it is most certainly a terribly ugly blight in urgent need of repair.

I could also point to various stories regarding local heroism. Police and other emergency services going above and beyond to help out locals in need during our worst disasters (hurricanes, floods, national fires etc) of which there are an abundance of stories to choose from.

Do I think this requires me to hero worship said responders? No. I can praise those individual actions whilst maintaining a safe distance.

It’s not an either or thing. And I think we need to establish proper boundaries when it comes to discussions such as this

 

[SomeRandom]

How dangerous?

What are America’s most dangerous jobs? Search our database of deadliest occupations

People who tend livestock are among those who face the most danger. How does your profession rank for workplace death rates?

www.usatoday.com

Do tree trimmers, farmers, loggers, roofers deserve more respect
because their jobs are more dangerous?

I’d argue this to be the case.
Anyone willing to put themselves in harms way just for a job is worthy of respect
And perhaps a little sympathy, as the case may be lol