I Think We Misunderstood Jesus

[WalterTrull]

You did not notice even one detail in the snake story that does not ring true?

I guess you're going to have to tell me. With multiple translations, I'm afraid I just go with the major points

 

[Audie]

I guess you're going to have to tell me. With multiple translations, I'm afraid I just go with the major points

You do know there are no poisonous snakes on that island?

That is like a major detail.

Pick your translation, and post it.

Dont forget to say what it might mean to you if the
story is phony.

And think about why you might want to defend the
story, before you start in. Lets be objective here?

 

[Audie]

Don't you choose what evidence to believe? which observations are legitimate?

Do you think that is the same thing?
That is is no more than a choice, whether or not
to believe that sailors on C Columbus voyage saw
a mermaid? Choose this, choose that, it is all the same?

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Emm. There's an ultimatum. You have to have faith. He healed the leaper and raised the dead "because" they had faith on his father. I usually think of good people doing things for others despite their differences. You think jesus would help a satanist?

Yes I think so. He would give him the shortcut to satan.

Hm? Went over my head. Heal him to go straight to himself?

I think he meant Jesus WOULDN'T heal the satanist, and let him die... that way he'd be along to Satan (hell) more quickly - supposed as the more favorable outcome for the satanist.

In that light, Jesus probably welcomed satanists - they gave him a chance to take a break from the tiresome work of miracle-making.

 

[WalterTrull]

You do know there are no poisonous snakes on that island?

Yeah, Maybe. These folks thinks it's the wrong island. Maybe, I don't know. It's just not an important incident to my beliefs.

 

[stvdv]

I dunno. "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils" Seems like pretty positive stuff to me.

Emm. There's an ultimatum. You have to have faith. He healed the leaper and raised the dead "because" they had faith on his father. I usually think of good people doing things for others despite their differences. You think jesus would help a satanist?

Yes I think so. He would give him the shortcut to satan.

Hm? Went over my head. Heal him to go straight to himself?

When I lost my way, and when I don't have a map with me, I ask someone for directions.

It's a "Love thy neighbor as thyself" thing.

If I want a "Spicy Devil Cocktail Brandy"(satan) I don't want them to give me bread+wine (Jesus)

Correct?

So the best way to help a satanist is to give him directions how to get to satan, hence my reply "Yes he would help by giving him the shortcut to satan"

Jesus would be the perfect one to ask for the "shortcut to satan", if the Bible is correct "Jesus saw satan", correct?

The satanist should not ask me, because I don't even believe in satan, let alone seen him

 

[stvdv]

I think he meant Jesus WOULDN'T heal the satanist, and let him die... that way he'd be along to Satan (hell) more quickly - supposed as the more favorable outcome for the satanist.
In that light, Jesus probably welcomed satanists - they gave him a chance to take a break from the tiresome work of miracle-making.

You read my mind quite well. Jesus is all about respect, so no healing.
I didn't even consider satanist to be sick though, I thought he just lost the road, so asking Jesus for "shortcut to his Master Satan"

I think Jesus is the right one to ask, as Jesus has seen Satan (according to Bible)

Now thinking of it, this is really fun "Jesus is the way", even if you want to go to Satan.

 

[MJFlores]

John 14:6


It gets quoted alot by sort of fundie Christians to explain why Christianity, and ONLY Christianity is saved.

Isn't that interesting though.

2 Kings 2:5-12 Elijah is taken directly to Heaven
Genesis 5:24 and Hebrews 11:5 both seem to say that Enoch got taken by God

So these people came to Heaven with God, yet somehow they weren't saved?

For that matter all of the other OT leaders such as Moses, Abraham, and the like, also not saved apparently.

Is it possible we misread this?

Let's get a few more quotes before declaring that only those who belong to the Christian fanclub are saved:

Matthew 19:23-26


Not Christianity. Not even Jesus. God is the one to save us.

Hold up, before Jesus said nobody comes to the father except through him. Is this a contradiction?

Not really. Jesus also says in John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

So, something's going on other than what we've led to believe. From what we have here, unlike many religions it does not appear that membership is actually the key point. So what is?

Belief in Jesus? Or for that matter, following the path of Jesus? (I mean, Muslims say they believe Jesus was a person, but they certainly don't follow his path)

Belief in God? (That would effectively save Christians, Jews, and probably Hindus)

Belief in some sort of concept, like grace? (That might effectively save even atheists)

Or is it more important to simply be a member of the Christian fanclub called the church, even if you don't actually strongly believe in Jesus or God, and are basically a nihilist? Is simply being baptised enough for salvation?

Thoughts?

There are different kinds of "Christians" as there are different kinds of trees in the forest. They have different beliefs about this and about that. They have divided themselves in different denominations, each have different belief systems either concocted out of the blue, in order words "man made"

Matthew 15:8-9 New International Version (NIV)
“‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’”

So it would be inappropriate to say that "ONLY Christianity is saved" - when these religions have an outward form from the original Christianity which the Lord Jesus Christ have established. In fact, the Lord Jesus Christ doesn't know these "Christians" when the Day of Judgement comes.

Matthew 7:21-23 New International Version (NIV)
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Elijah and Enoch were taken up to heaven because they have found favor with the Lord God and it was the will of God that they have to enjoy heaven without experiencing death. With regards to Noah to the prophet Malachi they are still buried and most likely their bones have turned to dusts, waiting for salvation.

Acts 2:29,34 New International Version (NIV)
“Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day.

For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,

“‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand

So when people say, that when good people die they go straight to heaven while wicked people go straight down to hell is pure rubbish. Think about King David who did not ascend to heaven - what made people think that they are better than David?

When we die, we are buried and wait for the Day of Judgement - and at that time the books will be opened:

Revelation 20:11-13 New International Version (NIV)
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

Only then people who are not dead in Christ shall be judged accordingly - whether this person was from another religion, an atheist, a polytheist or something else.

How about those who are in Christ? Well before the last trumpet sound this will happen:

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 New International Version (NIV)
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 New International Version (NIV)
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Those who are in Christ will no longer be judged. They will no longer have to wait for the books to be opened. They will be taken up to heaven - dead or alive - when the Lord Jesus once again is sent by the Lord God.

These are my thoughts to your thread. Thank you.

 

[Audie]

Yeah, Maybe. These folks thinks it's the wrong island. Maybe, I don't know. It's just not an important incident to my beliefs.

We sure are different. I cannot just choose to believe things,
I have to have a reason.

And, I cannot just leave things alone. I have to prod and twist
and look at it this way, and that. For lo, I learned first from my Mom and then from my own experience that you to not know
at first, if something is big, or small.

The most insignificant seeming thing can loom huge.
I referred to a piece of adhesive tape at the watergate
hotel.

The night watchman saw it, thought it insignificant, and
just pulled it off. When he came back, though-there it was again. Alarm-burglars caught-Nixon resigned.

He could have just said the tape was not important
(to his beliefs )

I decided to dissect the snake story. Nothing about
it makes sense. It isnt even a good lie.

If it had happened, the story would make sense.
But it doesnt.

Could it be you actually dont want to know that?

 

[WalterTrull]

Could it be you actually dont want to know that?

I don't think anyone "knows". There are all kinds of claims. I suppose I could believe the snake story if I wanted, but it would be a sort of "iffy" belief now. Actually, while I guess I'd heard about this before, I'd never bothered to research it, because it just wasn't that important. I'm sure the bible, along with innumerable ancient writings, have many embellishments, and probably a few outright fabrications. The "gist" of the accounts, however, along with current scientific claims and personal observations, lead me to my present philosophy. I notice the tape, but if it's not on my door, I might mention it to someone else or leave a note, but then I'll just move on.

 

[Etritonakin]

John 14:6


It gets quoted alot by sort of fundie Christians to explain why Christianity, and ONLY Christianity is saved.

Isn't that interesting though.

2 Kings 2:5-12 Elijah is taken directly to Heaven
Genesis 5:24 and Hebrews 11:5 both seem to say that Enoch got taken by God

So these people came to Heaven with God, yet somehow they weren't saved?

For that matter all of the other OT leaders such as Moses, Abraham, and the like, also not saved apparently.

Is it possible we misread this?

Let's get a few more quotes before declaring that only those who belong to the Christian fanclub are saved:

Matthew 19:23-26


Not Christianity. Not even Jesus. God is the one to save us.

Hold up, before Jesus said nobody comes to the father except through him. Is this a contradiction?

Not really. Jesus also says in John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

So, something's going on other than what we've led to believe. From what we have here, unlike many religions it does not appear that membership is actually the key point. So what is?

Belief in Jesus? Or for that matter, following the path of Jesus? (I mean, Muslims say they believe Jesus was a person, but they certainly don't follow his path)

Belief in God? (That would effectively save Christians, Jews, and probably Hindus)

Belief in some sort of concept, like grace? (That might effectively save even atheists)

Or is it more important to simply be a member of the Christian fanclub called the church, even if you don't actually strongly believe in Jesus or God, and are basically a nihilist? Is simply being baptised enough for salvation?

Thoughts?

First...... The Word who became Christ is the "God" who has always dealt with men. He has always gone forth from the Father -as Melchizedek, I AM, Christ, etc. -and it was his back parts of his glorious body that Moses saw. So -all have always been called to the Father through the being who became Christ.

Secondly..... There are three heavens spoken of in the bible. The sky/atmosphere, space/"the heavens", and where the throne of God presently resides/the "third heaven".

Elijah was taken into the sky -and was later seen on Earth.

Here is one discussing the third heaven in the NT....
2 Cor 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Only those "in Christ" at the time -which CAN apply to those called in the Old Testament -will be resurrected at his return -and "the rest of the dead" a thousand years later to the judgment -which is not all bad -and even those who have not done good works "will be saved.... yet so as by fire".

Finally, the meek shall initially inherit the earth at the return of Christ -and will reign with him on earth as kings and priests for the first thousand years, but all -including all who have later been made meek -will inherit the entire creation -"the heavens" which are described in scripture as having been "created not in vain" but "formed to be inhabited"

 

[Audie]

I don't think anyone "knows". There are all kinds of claims. I suppose I could believe the snake story if I wanted, but it would be a sort of "iffy" belief now. Actually, while I guess I'd heard about this before, I'd never bothered to research it, because it just wasn't that important. I'm sure the bible, along with innumerable ancient writings, have many embellishments, and probably a few outright fabrications. The "gist" of the accounts, however, along with current scientific claims and personal observations, lead me to my present philosophy. I notice the tape, but if it's not on my door, I might mention it to someone else or leave a note, but then I'll just move on.

The "know" is about why I would say it is an obvious phony,
which you dont seem to want to know.

I cannot comprehend how you or anyone could say that
they would believe if if they wanted to.

"Did not bother... did not seem important".
As I mentioned, what is or is not big / important is not
always so apparent at a glance. I am not good at
just glossing over.

I am wondering what you see in the OT account that
matches with science. The 6 day poof, the flood and
some several others absolutely do not. Fanciful tales.
No basis in reality.

As a testament, the thing is full laden with perjury.

What "gist" is there to believe in?

I guess left to you, the Watergate burglars would have
gotten away with it? I dont get that degree of slackadasical either in ones job or philosophy.

 

[Politesse]

John 14:6


It gets quoted alot by sort of fundie Christians to explain why Christianity, and ONLY Christianity is saved.

Isn't that interesting though.

2 Kings 2:5-12 Elijah is taken directly to Heaven
Genesis 5:24 and Hebrews 11:5 both seem to say that Enoch got taken by God

So these people came to Heaven with God, yet somehow they weren't saved?

For that matter all of the other OT leaders such as Moses, Abraham, and the like, also not saved apparently.

Is it possible we misread this?

Let's get a few more quotes before declaring that only those who belong to the Christian fanclub are saved:

Matthew 19:23-26


Not Christianity. Not even Jesus. God is the one to save us.

Hold up, before Jesus said nobody comes to the father except through him. Is this a contradiction?

Not really. Jesus also says in John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

So, something's going on other than what we've led to believe. From what we have here, unlike many religions it does not appear that membership is actually the key point. So what is?

Belief in Jesus? Or for that matter, following the path of Jesus? (I mean, Muslims say they believe Jesus was a person, but they certainly don't follow his path)

Belief in God? (That would effectively save Christians, Jews, and probably Hindus)

Belief in some sort of concept, like grace? (That might effectively save even atheists)

Or is it more important to simply be a member of the Christian fanclub called the church, even if you don't actually strongly believe in Jesus or God, and are basically a nihilist? Is simply being baptised enough for salvation?

Thoughts?

I think that Jesus saves whomever he wills. I personally believe that this means everyone, given his other teachings, but even if you aren't a universalist, I've never understood any perspective which says salvation is only for members of a Super Special Club. If salvation is purely by the will of one who while we were yet sinners voluntarily took flesh and died for our sakes, that makes me feel good about our collective prospects. So what if one only enters the Kingdom of Heaven through Christ? Christ loves all, and is in all, and is a very present refuge in all troubles. He is not hard to find. He finds you.

 

[WalterTrull]

I cannot comprehend how you or anyone could say that they would believe if if they wanted to.

To get anywhere, you have to choose a direction, even if you're not sure about it.

The 6 day poof, the flood and
some several others absolutely do not. Fanciful tales.

I think the creation metaphor is interesting. Days are obviously not our days. I think they are levels, stages of creation. Equating to our concept of time doesn't work very well. Each phase could last millions of years or seconds. I like the flood metaphor, although I certainly haven't deciphered all of it. The difference between clean and unclean beasts is interesting.

What "gist" is there to believe in?

The "gist" is that the universe is mental.

I guess left to you, the Watergate burglars would have gotten away with it?

Possibly. The robbery itself wasn't all that big a deal. The big deal was Nixon lying under oath.

 

[Audie]

To get anywhere, you have to choose a direction, even if you're not sure about it.


I think the creation metaphor is interesting. Days are obviously not our days. I think they are levels, stages of creation. Equating to our concept of time doesn't work very well. Each phase could last millions of years or seconds. I like the flood metaphor, although I certainly haven't deciphered all of it. The difference between clean and unclean beasts is interesting.


The "gist" is that the universe is mental.


Possibly. The robbery itself wasn't all that big a deal. The big deal was Nixon lying under oath.

I dont think that choosing to believe is deciding on a direction.

The "direction" is toward finding out what the deal is.
dont you think?

Investigating a claim or event, being open to
discovery, that is great! Of course one is not
sure. That is why we investigate. To find out.
Not just "choose" an answer, no heed to whether
it is the right choice.

Choosing to believe is self deception. Does not work for me.

Some think genesis is all metaphor, and as such, ok,
I guess, sorta. Takes a lot of Procrustean bed
stuff to get a fit. And, doubt very much that they
had "metaphor" in mind.

There are a lot of more or less similar stories from
around the world, Why tell "metaphors"? I think
they were saying what they really believe(d).

"The universe is mental"? huh?

The reason I mentioned watergate is, you think
the snake story is no big deal. It is not, in itself.
But, things like that put the lie to the rest of the
"testament". (look up the word, testament)
To me, perjury v reliable testimony seems like
a big deal.

The tape is an example of a little thing that turned
into a big thing. I KNOW the burglary itself was
just a second rate one. What it revealed was what was important.

The point, for me, is that if one glosses over things
esp ones that seem wrong or out of place, you
do not discover what lies behind them, which in
some cases are real important.

If you dont care if nothing in the bible is actually true
other than where identifies real people and places,
why bother with it at all?

 

[WalterTrull]

"The universe is mental"? huh?

Gonna respond to your post piecemeal - lotta things going on and I don't care much for long posts.

“Our father who art in heaven” indicates to me that the source of our being is mental.
Dr. Richard Conn Henry thinks so too. Mental Universe (a pdf)

 

[WalterTrull]

Investigating a claim or event, being open to
discovery, that is great! Of course one is not sure. That is why we investigate. To find out.
Not just "choose" an answer, no heed to whether it is the right choice.

I agree. However, we “choose” to believe an investigation is needed. Usually this is because we “choose” to believe something is wrong. Maybe we “choose” to disbelieve testimony. All I'm saying is that we have to make choices to move in any direction.

 

[WalterTrull]

If you dont care if nothing in the bible is actually true other than where identifies real people and places, why bother with it at all?

Not sure I follow the above.
The bible is a collection of many different writings, by many different people. Some of the histories I just can’t wade through. I don’t know if they are accurate or not. I find metaphorical truth in quite a few of the passages though. Others, I don’t understand at all. I do find a central theme or truth that I appreciate.

 

[Audie]

Not sure I follow the above.
The bible is a collection of many different writings, by many different people. Some of the histories I just can’t wade through. I don’t know if they are accurate or not. I find metaphorical truth in quite a few of the passages though. Others, I don’t understand at all. I do find a central theme or truth that I appreciate.

I suppose all of that is so. It just seems very
vague, very thin soup. Low information density.
Low reliability.

There's much better stuff out there. I dont get
why people spend so much time on that book,
unless they think it is the key to eternal life,
a notion I dont buy.

Any more than I think that "allah" will have me
hanging by my hair in eternal fire, for my daily
sin of going about with my hair uncovered.

 

[WalterTrull]

The point, for me, is that if one glosses over things esp ones that seem wrong or out of place, you do not discover what lies behind them, which in some cases are real important.

Again, I totally agree. This is why I am slowly building a philosophy based on science, metaphorical implications, personal observations, bits and pieces from this forum, and many other factors.