I think you CAN fail at meditation

[Sirona]

Concerning a thread in the Buddhist forum claiming you can't fail at meditation - I think you CAN .

I think the biggest problem especially for Westerners it's that they're driven by an attitude of "reward". The "reward" of meditation is enlightenment, and if you're not enlightened, you "failed". I think many people are not used to the thought of doing things for the sake of just doing them.

The second problem I see is about "theoretical" Buddhists, people who may bandy big words about Buddhist doctine and may consider themselves learned while being unwilling or afraid at actually looking at their interior life.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Indeed. Many begin meditation with an expectation of something happening.

There is nothing to expect.

Just be.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Concerning a thread in the Buddhist forum claiming you can't fail at meditation - I think you CAN .

I think the biggest problem especially for Westerners it's that they're driven by an attitude of "reward". The "reward" of meditation is enlightenment, and if you're not enlightened, you "failed". I think many people are not used to the thought of doing things for the sake of just doing them.

The second problem I see is about "theoretical" Buddhists, people who may bandy big words about Buddhist doctine and may consider themselves learned while being unwilling or afraid at actually looking at their interior life.

Failure is meditation.

Makes you focus more.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Failure is meditation.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Please expand.

 

[Yazata]

Concerning a thread in the Buddhist forum claiming you can't fail at meditation - I think you CAN .

I'm inclined to agree. Of course that depends on there being some criterion for success and failure in meditation.

In Buddhism there are basically two sorts of meditation (with infinite variations): Mindfulness and Concentration. I can imagine (in my case it's more than imagination) not being particularly successful at either of them. Of course in a sense that might not really be failure at all, just how the twisty path goes.

I think the biggest problem especially for Westerners it's that they're driven by an attitude of "reward". The "reward" of meditation is enlightenment, and if you're not enlightened, you "failed". I think many people are not used to the thought of doing things for the sake of just doing them.

There would seem to have to be some reward or purpose in doing it. Otherwise, what's the point?

As for me (I don't pretend to be an authority on this stuff) meditation in the Buddhist sense is kind of a path without a final goal. The path becomes its own reward, so to speak. That includes the inevitable ups and downs.

That may be less true for Hindus who seek oneness with the Godhead or some sort of ultimate transcendent experience. Hindu meditation seems more goal-directed. (I might be wrong about that.)

The second problem I see is about "theoretical" Buddhists, people who may bandy big words about Buddhist doctine and may consider themselves learned while being unwilling or afraid at actually looking at their interior life.

Yes, that's a valid point.

 

[Secret Chief]

Perhaps it depends on whether one has set a goal?

 

[Vinidra]

I totally agree. I cannot meditate. ADHD brain refuses to cooperate, and believe me, I have tried many, many times.

 

[Vinayaka]

I totally agree. I cannot meditate. ADHD brain refuses to cooperate, and believe me, I have tried many, many times.

Neither can I, in the classical sense. There are several activities I can do that other people would say is meditation, but since I go by my definitions, then no. I can sit perfectly still for half an hour or more, but that's not meditation. Still, it's a start.

 

[Vinidra]

Neither can I, in the classical sense. There are several activities I can do that other people would say is meditation, but since I go by my definitions, then no. I can sit perfectly still for half an hour or more, but that's not meditation. Still, it's a start.

I'm still working on the sitting still part.

 

[Vinayaka]

I'm still working on the sitting still part.

Yes, it's really hard. I started at 5 minutes as a goal, and worked my way up.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The "reward" of meditation is enlightenment, and if you're not enlightened, you "failed". I think many people are not used to the thought of doing things for the sake of just doing them.

Meditation is for a purpose. There is no meditation without a purpose. Meditation could be to free the mind from monkey thought for some times or it could to find answer to a question.

I'm still working on the sitting still part.

Try the walking meditation or lying-down meditation, sofa meditation. One can meditate in any position. But yes, stillness is necessary, cannot be forced (let the monkeys have their fun), comes with practice.

 

[ajay0]

One can fail at meditation, while being an expert scholar or having precise scholarly knowledge of religion and spirituality.This is because meditation as an exercise is much harder than study and contemplation of spiritual knowledge.


In Hinduism, Sravana ( reading or hearing discourses on knowledge), Manana ( contemplation) and Nidhidhyasana ( application of knowledge learnt as in meditation) are considered as the stages of spiritual process.

Sravana as in reading or listening to spiritual knowledge is easy. Contemplation of it is harder, as it is a harder exercise. Hence contemplation of knowledge is considered to be a hundred times more spiritually meritorious than sravana or reading/listening.

Meditation on the other hand, is more harder than reflection, and this is why meditation is considered a greater spiritual austerity than mere reflection or contemplation.

It is obviously that which is harder to accomplish that yields the best results. Hence performance of meditation yields the best results. Shankaracharya also states similarly in this regard...


"Reflection (manana) is hundred times superior to listening (sravana); meditation (nididhyasana) is hundred times superior to reflection; nirvikalpaka samadhi is infinitely superior. ~ Sankaracharya



The Yoga Vasishta also considers meditation to be highly meritorious as shown below...

Meditation is the offering, meditation is the water offered to the deity to wash his hands and feet, self-knowledge gained through meditation is the flower — indeed all these are directed towards meditation. The Self is not realized by any means other than meditation.

If one is able to meditate even for thirteen seconds, even if one is ignorant, one attains the merit of giving away a cow in charity. If one does so for one hundred and one seconds, the merit is that of performing a sacred rite. If the duration is twelve minutes, the merit is a thousand fold. If the duration is of a day, one dwells in the highest realm.

This is the supreme yoga, this is the supreme kriya (action or service). One who practices this mode of worship is worshipped by the gods and the demons and all other beings. However, this is external worship. ~ Yoga Vasistha

 

[ameyAtmA]

Meditation is not necessarily solely a voluntary effort.

Grace of the ParaBramhan' (bhagvad-krupA) plays a grand role in arriving at the meditative stage. It is about the kundalini Devi rising to a point. Everything else is a pre-requisite and all sadhana is pre-requisite preparation. No sadhana goes waste.

 

[Yes Man]

Having skimmed through that original Lion's Roar article you are referencing to here, I think they're just trying to be encouraging to people and say that "failure" and distractions are a normal part of the process and to not give up too easily when approaching a meditative practice. The other problem I think we have is that the term 'meditation' in our culture is its really too broad a term to speak about meaningfully. I'm not sure what kind of meditation was being alluded to in the original article. Even within this thread, I can see number of different meditation techniques being mentioned without any extensive definitions of these techniques and their larger purpose within their respective traditions. Thus arises the issue of today when spiritual practice is appropriated and removed from its original cultural context and spiritual traditions.

In Buddhism there are basically two sorts of meditation (with infinite variations)

Appreciate you bringing this up, because I feel like the cultural dialogue about meditation almost never acknowledges this, thus leading to watered-down discussions that don't really talk about the philosophical background of specific practices. I can only speak of my limited experience in Soto Zen with teachers emphasizing the unity of goal and practice when meditating. Which probably contrasts against more concentrative practices in other traditions.

There would seem to have to be some reward or purpose in doing it. Otherwise, what's the point?

I think what is being alluded to in the original post is the utilitarian trend, especially in the West, of people asking "What do I get out of this?" as opposed to "Why is this spiritual practice good and ethical to do?"

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. especially in the West, of people asking "What do I get out of this?" as opposed to "Why is this spiritual practice good and ethical to do?"

People can get answers to their questions when they think with concentration during meditation or just calmness, peace of mind without monkey thoughts. Is not that good? Yes, ethical behavior keeps the mind at peace, that is why Yama and Niyama (Abstentions and observations) are recommended in Hindu medication.

 

[Jainarayan]

I can’t meditate in the traditional sense either. That used to bother me but I stopped letting it. Sometimes I drift into deep thought or let my mind wander.

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

Concerning a thread in the Buddhist forum claiming you can't fail at meditation - I think you CAN .

Indeed you can fail at meditation if you think you can. Thankfully we have an unlimited number of retries.

It is obviously that which is harder to accomplish that yields the best results.

In my experience, meditation stops being hard once you realize how easy it is. Of course, success is not usually all or nothing in meditation. It's not quite like flipping on a light switch, but with persistence and an authentic drive to witness the divine, things will start to happen and happen more frequently.