I want to b elieve

[Aupmanyav]

the tyranny of choice

I suppose better than monotony of one.

 

[PureX]

I suggest you read again what I have written. What I have said has absolutely nothing to do with what you are saying. Take your time and read it as many times as you need.

Hint: I have never said that what I believe is true because I believe it.

I suggest that you consider your position more carefully, as you clearly indicated that you can know the truth, as pursuing it is stated as your ultimate goal. If you did not believe that you could gain it, then why would pursuing it be your ultimate goal?

To clarify my perspective, I think our ultimate goal in regards to "truth-seeking" should be the pursuit of honesty, rather than truth, as truth can never be verified by a human except in relative and often subjective terms and degrees. Whereas honesty does not presume itself to be the truth, but rather to be as truthful as is possible given the limitations of our relative and subjective human condition. What reasonable humans should be doing is pursuing rigorous honesty, rather than the delusion of gaining and possessing truths that we cannot actually verify, as we are limited to the realm of fact, not the realm of truth.

 

[PureX]

the tyranny of choice

... As opposed to the tyranny of certainty?

 

[Koldo]

I suggest that you consider your position more carefully, as you clearly indicated that you can know the truth, as pursuing it is stated as your ultimate goal. If you did not believe that you could gain it, then why would pursuing it be your ultimate goal?

I will correct you once again on this topic. Pursuing truth is not my ultimate goal. I have merely stated that it is as a goal in itself, not the ultimate goal in my life.

To clarify my perspective, I think our ultimate goal in regards to "truth-seeking" should be the pursuit of honesty, rather than truth, as truth can never be verified by a human except in relative and often subjective terms and degrees. Whereas honesty does not presume itself to be the truth, but rather to be as truthful as is possible given the limitations of our relative and subjective human condition. What reasonable humans should be doing is pursuing rigorous honesty, rather than the delusion of gaining and possessing truths that we cannot actually verify, as we are limited to the realm of fact, not the realm of truth.

The truth we acquire is, with minor exceptions such as the law of identity, always tentative. That should not, and as a matter of fact it has not, prevent us from seeking more knowledge.

 

[SalixIncendium]

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[Neb]

... As opposed to the tyranny of certainty?

of absolute certainty

 

[PureX]

of absolute certainty

Well, relative certainty is no longer certainty. Is it. I mean, by definition, one is either certain or one is not. So I assumed that the term certainly implied the absolute.

 

[Neb]

Well, relative certainty is no longer certainty.

Is it. I mean, by definition, one is either certain or one is not.



So I assumed that the term certainly implied the absolute.

you mean not knowing with absolute certainty and knowing with absolute certainty.

 

[PureX]

you mean not knowing with absolute certainty and knowing with absolute certainty.

Certainty is certain. It's already absolute. Anything that is less than certain to any degree is no longer certain, it's something less than certain. It's some lesser degree of relative certitude.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Certainty is certain. It's already absolute.

True. But in science, they grade certainty from Sigma 1 to 6, the degree of certainty. The higher is more certain. For example, existence of Higg's Boson, I think, is Sigma 5. The non-existence of God is Sigma 6 (beyond all doubts).

 

[PureX]

True. But in science, they grade certainty from Sigma 1 to 6, the degree of certainty. The higher is more certain. For example, existence of Higg's Boson, I think, is Sigma 5. The non-existence of God is Sigma 6 (beyond all doubts).

It's a misuse of language. There can only be degrees of surety, not degrees of certainty. Certainty refers to a state of full assuredness. Surety refers to the relative condition prior to achieving full assuredness (certainty).

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I was a Christian for a long time and became atheist. I got fed up with right wing Christianity. Lately though, I have been wanting something. I want to believe but do not want a Christian god. I am obsessing about it but am no closer to finding what I want. Any suggestions?

There are different paths of exploration.

The path of the sages -- start reading sacred texts from around the world. Don't look for what you disagree with, although approaching from an intellectual viewpoint is okay. But the idea is read it with the question, what can I learn from this. You'll find that even religions that believe some very silly things still contain within then crystals of wisdom.

The empirical path -- seek a personal encounter with the divine. There are many tools: prayer, meditation, ecstatic worship, sackcloth and ashes fasting in a yurt in lower Mongolia...

Trial and error -- hey, it's tried and true. You can study a religion in a book, but yu won't really understand it unless you give it a try and practice it. And shake things up a bit. You experiences one version of Christianity, but Christianity is a very big, big buffet. If you were mainstream Protestant, try Catholic. If you were Evangelical, find some ultra liberal mainline Protestant Church.

Expect your journey to take a long time. But God is an important enough thing that he/she/it deserves our best try. And it's not without danger. In fact I dare say you can't expect to undertake this trip without getting hurt somewhere along the way. It is a legitimate Quest.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

True. But in science, they grade certainty from Sigma 1 to 6, the degree of certainty. The higher is more certain. For example, existence of Higg's Boson, I think, is Sigma 5. The non-existence of God is Sigma 6 (beyond all doubts).

The non-existance of God is not beyond all doubts. Give us a break.

 

[Aupmanyav]

There can only be degrees of surety, not degrees of certainty. Certainty refers to a state of full assuredness. Surety refers to the relative condition prior to achieving full assuredness (certainty).

I agree to what you have written. Non-existence of God is a certainty (full assuredness) for people like me.

If you were mainstream Protestant, try Catholic. If you were Evangelical, find some ultra liberal mainline Protestant Church.

What IndigoChild5559 means is that you make your search but do not abandon Christianity. What if you like something other than Christianity? What if the truth lies beyond Christianity?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

What IndigoChild5559 means is that you make your search but do not abandon Christianity. What if you like something other than Christianity? What if the truth lies beyond Christianity?

I hope I wasn't unclear. I didn't mean to LIMIT the search to Christianity good heavens no. Just perhaps it may be premature to completely toss it out, given its many forms.

When I think of religion, I think of a love poem between me and that which upholds the universe, the source, the Divine, Tao, Hashem. The words of the poem are my own, no one can write them but me. But the form of the poem, whether it is a sonnet or a haiku, whether it is iambic pentameter or free verse, which metaphors and symbols are used... These are peculiar to the religion I follow. My religion is Judaism. But does it matter? Can a love poem not be just as beautiful in many different forms? This is why Judaism does not try to convert people to Judaism.

 

[PureX]

I agree to what you have written. Non-existence of God is a certainty (full assuredness) for people like me.

Except that you have no means of supporting your imagined certainty but biased observation and reasoning. (As is also true for those who are 'certain' that God does exist.)

What IndigoChild5559 means is that you make your search but do not abandon Christianity. What if you like something other than Christianity? What if the truth lies beyond Christianity?

We are each defining what Christianity means to us, anyway. Once we recognize this we are free to alter our definitions at will according to our own reasoning and desire.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Who has the burden of proof? Those who believe in something or those who want evidence before believing in something?

 

[Milton Platt]

No, because there is no way for any of us to determine what the truth is about the nature or existence of "God". From the human perspective, God exists as a human ideal. What exist of God beyond that is a mystery. And pretending that we do know when we don't is just dishonest self-delusion.

However, accepting that we do not know, but choosing to trust in the ideal, anyway, is an act of faith. And acting on faith can and does provide us with positive options in life that we would not otherwise have. So the goal in not the dishonest pretense of knowledge masquerading as "faith". The goal is to employ actual faith in the face of our unknowing.

I would be just fine with religion if it:
A). Did not pretend to be true
B). Did not proselytize
C). Did not try constantly to insert itself into government and education

Unfortunately, such is not the case.

I do not view any of the gods thus far proposed to be anywhere near ideal.

 

[Sammaiel]

Burden of proof...
it depends on the situation, I think.

Most of time is on the one proposing a statement.
But I would not go into a church or temple and demand evidences.

Separation of state and religion(s), and complete freedom within the limits of the law would be fine for me.

 

[tayla]

I was a Christian for a long time and became atheist. I got fed up with right wing Christianity. Lately though, I have been wanting something. I want to believe but do not want a Christian god. I am obsessing about it but am no closer to finding what I want. Any suggestions?

Here’s what we can know:

1. There is a God who has at least the same attributes as me (consciousness and its contents, sense of self, sense of morality, will, purpose, can perceive and enjoy beauty, hates immorality and injustice).
2. God personally interacts with my soul/spirit, and enlivens me, giving me a sense of purpose and hope; and provides deep intimate friendship.
3. God created this universe, the “physical realm”, without pain, suffering, death, and evil.
4. God created the “spiritual realm” with its souls and spirits.
5. The goal of all this creating is eternal utopia.