I want to know more....

[Spice]

-That Hinduism is just another religion, like the Abrahamic ones.
- that caste is fundamental to Hinduism
- that we're actually monotheistic, but don't know it
- that our temples operate like Christian churches
- that Brahman is the equivalent to the Abrahamic God
- that we worship idols
- that all Hindus think the same
- that Hindi is the language of Hinduism
- that anything goes in Hinduism
- that we're archaic, behind the times, too old, need to get modernized
- that we need saving
- that there is no conversion to Hinduism
- that we're patriarchal
- that arranged marriages are bad
- that all gurus are fake
- that we have no scriptures
- that the Bhagavad Gita is THE scripture of Hinduism

I "think" I understand that Hinduism is a very broad belief that is more "living" than "worshiping/practicing", but I want to know more. I've been told some of my personal beliefs are Hindu, yet it certainly isn't because I've studied. I have picked up and incorporated bits and pieces mindfully, but very little.

So......

If you'll be so kind as to expand on some of the above misconceptions as identified by Vinayaka. Please supply some food-for-thought.

 

[Vinayaka]

I "think" I understand that Hinduism is a very broad belief that is more "living" than "worshiping/practicing", but I want to know more. I've been told some of my personal beliefs are Hindu, yet it certainly isn't because I've studied. I have picked up and incorporated bits and pieces mindfully, but very little.

So......

If you'll be so kind as to expand on some of the above misconceptions as identified by Vinayaka. Please supply some food-for-thought.

Pick a couple that you'd like me to expand on. I don't want to write something that you know more than me about.

 

[Spice]

Pick a couple that you'd like me to expand on. I don't want to write something that you know more than me about.

That would be impossible! LOL
Okay, how about start with some comparisons by expanding on 1, 4, and 5.

How does Hinduism differ from the Abrahamic religions?

How do the temples play into the belief/practice?

How do the top rung of gods fit? The Trimurti - correct?

 

[Vinayaka]

That would be impossible! LOL
Okay, how about start with some comparisons by expanding on 1, 4, and 5.

How does Hinduism differ from the Abrahamic religions?

How do the temples play into the belief/practice?

How do the top rung of gods fit? The Trimurti - correct?

I can only give you my opinion, obviously, and there's a good chance other Hindus may arrive on the scene to tell you how wrong I am. Most of us respect those kinds of differences, but not all. Sure. Although the paradigms have many important differences, I'll highlight a couple. Hinduism is primarily about practice, not about belief. Therefore it isn't so book focused. Lots of Hindus used to be illiterate, and a few still are. The little old grandmother outside a massive stone temple in India selling a few hand-made garlands to buy some food for her grandchildren may well understand this faith better than you are I or any scholar ever could. She has caught the spirit of devotion and dharma, and the scholar is still going in mental circles that will only lead to more mental circles. Another very key factor is that reincarnation changes everything. Devout Hindus view themselves as souls with bodies, not bodies or minds with souls. Thinking you might be around for another 1000 lifetimes versus having one chance gives us the patience that comes with fully knowing you have many chances. Reincarnation and it's brother karma also explain why people are all so different, and why some folks suffer more than others.

Temples are houses of Siva, Ganesha, Shakti, etc. They are not social halls, but places where individuals commune with the deity, according to the way they personally feel more comfortable. These days some have morphed into social halls. We sit on the floor, the priest invokes the deity, and we leave happier and more content than we were when we entered. That's the purpose. It is Hinduism's psychologist.

The Trimurthi concept is rare in Hinduism. Western indologists, looking at it through their Abrahamic lens, selected it as a comparison to their trinity concept. (Because of the prefix 'tri') It has very little bearing on reality of Hinduism that is alive today. But because many people in the beginning pick up an encyclopedia to 'study' us, the concept has stuck around sadly. There is no top rung of Gods. The very term 'God' is Abrahamic. For most of us, including myself, are henotheists, believing in one supreme deity, with other important ones. Advaitha Vedantists believe in a constant force or cause called Brahman, from which all other deities, souls, matter, etc emanated. From formlessness into form. But it's a mistake to call Brahman God.

Feel free to ask me to be more specific on any of these points.

 

[Spice]

I can only give you my opinion, obviously, and there's a good chance other Hindus may arrive on the scene to tell you how wrong I am. Most of us respect those kinds of differences, but not all.

I had picked up on that. There seems to be a wide bearth in the -- what is the correct term? -- Faith? Belief? Practice?
???

Sure. Although the paradigms have many important differences, I'll highlight a couple. Hinduism is primarily about practice, not about belief. Therefore it isn't so book focused. Lots of Hindus used to be illiterate, and a few still are. The little old grandmother outside a massive stone temple in India selling a few hand-made garlands to buy some food for her grandchildren may well understand this faith better than you are I or any scholar ever could. She has caught the spirit of devotion and dharma,

A better understanding of dharma, please. Is it a result of living in the spirit of devotion? And how would this spirit be described? Or the devotion there of?

and the scholar is still going in mental circles that will only lead to more mental circles.

That reminds me of one of my favorite Bible verses in Ecclesiastes that says too much study is a waste.

Another very key factor is that reincarnation changes everything. Devout Hindus view themselves as souls with bodies, not bodies or minds with souls. Thinking you might be around for another 1000 lifetimes versus having one chance gives us the patience that comes with fully knowing you have many chances. Reincarnation and it's brother karma also explain why people are all so different, and why some folks suffer more than others.

This is where I apparently am fully Hindu! LOL Except I seem to see it clearly in the Bible. And this is one of the first things to rub me wrong with my Christian upbringing as a child. I "feel" past religions: Native American, Judaism, Norse, and I suppose Hinduism, along with a few unidentified but very, very intoned to nature.

Temples are houses of Siva, Ganesha, Shakti, etc. They are not social halls, but places where individuals commune with the deity, according to the way they personally feel more comfortable. These days some have morphed into social halls. We sit on the floor, the priest invokes the deity, and we leave happier and more content than we were when we entered. That's the purpose. It is Hinduism's psychologist.

So is each Temple dedicated to a certain deity, or are there certain times one attends Temple to commune with the deity they seek? If I am grasping the concept correctly, it would be somewhat equivalent to my sometimes needing to be among trees, sometimes on the river, sometimes talking to the birds, etc. On a sky day, I feel calmed by focusing on the clouds, or maybe the stars, though they're more difficult to ponder on with the modern world's light pollution.

The Trimurthi concept is rare in Hinduism. Western indologists, looking at it through their Abrahamic lens, selected it as a comparison to their trinity concept. (Because of the prefix 'tri') It has very little bearing on reality of Hinduism that is alive today. But because many people in the beginning pick up an encyclopedia to 'study' us, the concept has stuck around sadly. There is no top rung of Gods.

And this is why I've hit a barrier every time I've attempted to learn on my own. I have a copy of the Bhagavad Gita and have gotten about 1/3 through it, but it hasn't grabbed me. I have more note-worthy markings in the introduction than the actual text. I do "feel" 3:38 (Is that the proper way to identify a specific text?)
"As fire is concealed by smoke, as a mirror by dust, as an unborn babe by the womb, so is Knowledge concealed by ignorance."

Even reading The Bhagavad Gita, the Tao te Ching, The Dhammapada, or the Bible, I still relate to an unidentifiable, energy-based, mystic "deity" I call God. Although I've considered calling Him, SAM.... SomethingAwfullyMajestic. [wink]

The very term 'God' is Abrahamic. For most of us, including myself, are henotheists, believing in one supreme deity, with other important ones. Advaitha Vedantists believe in a constant force or cause called Brahman, from which all other deities, souls, matter, etc emanated. From formlessness into form. But it's a mistake to call Brahman God.

Okay, so although it would be mistake to call Brahman "God", Brahman still fits my personal nickname, SAM? And please, don't be offended, I am truly looking for a way I can relate new learning with an old brain. And I really would like to distinguish my deity from specifically the Abrahamic even if my foundation is Abrahamic.

Feel free to ask me to be more specific on any of these points.

Thank you! I will. But I'll try not to wear out that welcome in one day. I'll hit you up with Round 2 of Q & A perhaps later tonight.
Namaste

 

[Vinayaka]

I had picked up on that. There seems to be a wide bearth in the -- what is the correct term? -- Faith? Belief? Practice?
???
Yes there is a wide berth. Hindus are a tolerant lot, but most especially of other Hindus. There are exceptions.
A better understanding of dharma, please. Is it a result of living in the spirit of devotion? And how would this spirit be described? Or the devotion there of?
Dharma is often translated as 'duty', but it is more than that. Perhaps 'sacred duty' does it more justice. There are also 4 categories of dharma, the first simple being the order in the universe, related to Brahman, and the last being svadharma, or individual dharma, which implies that each soul has a sacred purpose to accomplish in each lifetime. In includes a lot of things, but most especially righteous action.
This is where I apparently am fully Hindu! LOL Except I seem to see it clearly in the Bible. And this is one of the first things to rub me wrong with my Christian upbringing as a child. I "feel" past religions: Native American, Judaism, Norse, and I suppose Hinduism, along with a few unidentified but very, very intoned to nature.
I definitely share your feel for nature.

So is each Temple dedicated to a certain deity, or are there certain times one attends Temple to commune with the deity they seek? If I am grasping the concept correctly, it would be somewhat equivalent to my sometimes needing to be among trees, sometimes on the river, sometimes talking to the birds, etc. On a sky day, I feel calmed by focusing on the clouds, or maybe the stars, though they're more difficult to ponder on with the modern world's light pollution.
People go to temples when they feel like it, but yes, to celebrate birthdays, to finish cycles, or just because the deity is calling on a particular day. People like myself go more regularly than most. It sometimes depends on the availability of temples, especially here in the west. But for the more mystical, it is the darshan they go for. Darshan is the vibration, the palpable (it can make you cry) energy some feel at a temple.

And this is why I've hit a barrier every time I've attempted to learn on my own. I have a copy of the Bhagavad Gita and have gotten about 1/3 through it, but it hasn't grabbed me. I have more note-worthy markings in the introduction than the actual text. I do "feel" 3:38 (Is that the proper way to identify a specific text?)
"As fire is concealed by smoke, as a mirror by dust, as an unborn babe by the womb, so is Knowledge concealed by ignorance."

Okay, so although it would be mistake to call Brahman "God", Brahman still fits my personal nickname, SAM? And please, don't be offended, I am truly looking for a way I can relate new learning with an old brain. And I really would like to distinguish my deity from specifically the Abrahamic even if my foundation is Abrahamic.

Thank you! I will. But I'll try not to wear out that welcome in one day. I'll hit you up with Round 2 of Q & A perhaps later tonight.
Namaste

 

[Vinayaka]

@ Spice ... Sorry, I got messed up with answering so many questions and formating.
... continued... I've never read the Gita. I consider the Upanishads for deep mystical insights, and Patanjali's Yoga Sutras as more important for myself. I also listen to the wise words of my Gurus.

I'm not sure about Brahman, and one of the reasons is it's not in words, it's in deeper mystical realisations.

 

[Spice]

@ Spice ... Sorry, I got messed up with answering so many questions and formating.

You have passed forward your format challenge. LOL

... continued... I've never read the Gita. I consider the Upanishads for deep mystical insights, and Patanjali's Yoga Sutras as more important for myself. I also listen to the wise words of my Gurus.

I'll have to check into the Sutras, but as you'll discover below, "mystic" and I aren't a team at this time.

Vinayaka:
Dharma is often translated as 'duty', but it is more than that. Perhaps 'sacred duty' does it more justice. There are also 4 categories of dharma, the first simple being the order in the universe, related to Brahman, and the last being svadharma, or individual dharma, which implies that each soul has a sacred purpose to accomplish in each lifetime. In includes a lot of things, but most especially righteous action.

Spice:
"Duty" or "Sacred duty" -- That certainly makes sense to me. The levels I can only imagine.

Vinayaka:
I definitely share your feel for nature.

Spice:
It's where I feel the most connected, nature and laughter with those I help. It was a great ESL class tonight!

Vinayaka:
People go to temples when they feel like it, but yes, to celebrate birthdays, to finish cycles, or just because the deity is calling on a particular day.

Spice:
So when you say deity, it doesn't necessarily mean Brahman, correct? So can any deity be found in any temple at any time?

Vinayaka:
People like myself go more regularly than most. It sometimes depends on the availability of temples, especially here in the west. But for the more mystical, it is the darshan they go for. Darshan is the vibration, the palpable (it can make you cry) energy some feel at a temple.

Spice:
I was under the impression that all Hinduism was mystical and deep meditation should not be attempted without proper training. This is the same with Native American mystics, as well, in my understanding. I do meditate, but I've never had a pull to seek the deeper levels. I do find them fascinating, though.

We'll see what specific questions I'll have tomorrow. Looking back over your misconception list, fortunately many I already know are incorrect.

I know all life is sacred in Hinduism, and I think I have a pretty good understanding the important symbolism in cows, but is the abstention of eating beef for all Hindus or only certain paths/sects?

Until tomorrow......
Namaste

 

[Vinayaka]

Spice:
It's where I feel the most connected, nature and laughter with those I help. It was a great ESL class tonight!
Are you teaching ESL, or taking ESL? If you're taking it, what is your first language?
Spice:
So when you say deity, it doesn't necessarily mean Brahman, correct? So can any deity be found in any temple at any time?
Brahman is never worshipped directly. Temples are dedicated to particular deities, and are often sectarian in nature. For example, the one I go to is a Ganesha temple with side shrines for Murugan, Sivan, and Bhairava. There s also a separate shrine for festival deities, and that's it. It's a Saiva temple. Another North Indian a temple nearby has Laksmi Narayan, Radha Krishnan, Hanumanji, the Saiva family, a lingam, Ganesha, and probably a few more. The two basic styles are what I call the central sanctum style and the stage style. So no, not all deities are found in all temples.
Spice:
I was under the impression that all Hinduism was mystical and deep meditation should not be attempted without proper training. This is the same with Native American mystics, as well, in my understanding. I do meditate, but I've never had a pull to seek the deeper levels. I do find them fascinating, though.
Some modern groups teach meditation first, like TM, but more traditional groups would see it as you see it ... I don't meditate personally, much, although my definition is strict. The very word 'meditation' conjures up a wide variety of practices.
I know all life is sacred in Hinduism, and I think I have a pretty good understanding the important symbolism in cows, but is the abstention of eating beef for all Hindus or only certain paths/sects?
I would say 95% of Hindus abstain from beef, and about 40% abstain from flesh of any creature.
Until tomorrow......
Namaste

 

[Spice]

Vinayaka:
Are you teaching ESL, or taking ESL? If you're taking it, what is your first language?
Spice:
I teach Mexican farm workers English and they're "trying" to teach me Spanish. We have such a good time.
Vinayaka:
Brahman is never worshipped directly. Temples are dedicated to particular deities, and are often sectarian in nature. For example, the one I go to is a Ganesha temple with side shrines for Murugan, Sivan, and Bhairava. There s also a separate shrine for festival deities, and that's it. It's a Saiva temple. Another North Indian a temple nearby has Laksmi Narayan, Radha Krishnan, Hanumanji, the Saiva family, a lingam, Ganesha, and probably a few more. The two basic styles are what I call the central sanctum style and the stage style. So no, not all deities are found in all temples.
Spice:
That's interesting. Now I have a better understanding of how the temples are used. Why is Brahman never worshipped directly? Would that be showing a lack of humility?
Vinayaka:
Some modern groups teach meditation first, like TM, but more traditional groups would see it as you see it ... I don't meditate personally, much, although my definition is strict. The very word 'meditation' conjures up a wide variety of practices.
Spice:
I stick with the "mindfulness" version of meditation. I do a little basic Tia-chi with a few of my favorite postures/movements having special meaning behind them. Otherwise my "meditation" is just losing myself in nature. Today's walk was especially filled with the breeze and the sound of it rushing over winter's dried grasses. The Martin's were calling their warnings as usual, but I'm sure they don't mean what it sounds like they're saying: de beer, de beer. LOL
Vinayaka:
I would say 95% of Hindus abstain from beef, and about 40% abstain from flesh of any creature.
Spice:
I certainly understand the commitment to being vegetarian, but it's not something I've ever considered. I lean more towards the Native American thought of no unnecessary killing, no waste, quick and clean, and always, always thank the spirit released by the kill. I don't hunt, so I do this in silent acknowledgement over meals. When in a large group gathering and someone gives the blessing, my mind is doing its own thing. Not that I am being disrespectful to the Christian concept, but taking it a step further as I see it, to how Jesus taught by word and more importantly by example -- keep prayers private and sincere.
Namaste

 

[Spice]

Is there a specific concept in how reincarnation works within Hinduism or is that another aspect filled with variety?

Human to human only? Karma spread out over multiple lives or directed to the next life in full, and continuing?

How do you perceive it to work?

 

[Vinayaka]

Is there a specific concept in how reincarnation works within Hinduism or is that another aspect filled with variety?

Human to human only? Karma spread out over multiple lives or directed to the next life in full, and continuing?

How do you perceive it to work?

Reincarnation does vary somewhat by sect, and I'm not familiar with all of the options. For me, it's human to human, with a couple of exceptions. The first exception is a person who is heavily addicted to drugs, and is very confused at the time of death, and may be so confused they don't know what kind of body to look for, and can spend one lifetime as a large mammal, like a family dog for instance. The second is in a sudden accident, when the soul has no time to prepare for it, which again, causes confusion.

Karma is a principle with regard to action, not a thing. But the word is also used in the way you expressed, like in 'my karma' which actually means the consequences of my (referring to the soul) actions due to the principle of karma. Those consequences can return in 5 seconds, 5 years, or 5 lifetimes. There is no set rule on how that works, other than it's balanced. The main thing, for me at least, in practice, is to fully realise that you're creating new karma all the time with your action. Therefore, act according to dharma.

Karma isn't eye for an eye, but it's something of equal impact. You can also spread it out over several actions, like 10 dimes are the same values as a dollar. So it can be mitigated somewhat, but not completely, by penance, or good works.

Again, this is all the teachings of my sampradaya, and, on rare occasion, my own insights.

 

[Vinayaka]

That's interesting. Now I have a better understanding of how the temples are used. Why is Brahman never worshipped directly? Would that be showing a lack of humility?

Brahman, in the sense it is generally used, is unmanifest, so there is 'nothing' to worship. Others would say any worship is worship of Brahman.

I certainly understand the commitment to being vegetarian, but it's not something I've ever considered.

I became vegetarian by experimenting, not due to philosophy. I felt better physically, and only later learned of the philosophical reasons. I did hunt, but gave it up after the first major kill. I carried guilt for a long time.

keep prayers private and sincere.
Namaste

Sacred is secret.
Thanks for the ESL info. Hope you learn some Spanish. My wife and I were transiting in San Francisco about 6 weeks back, and an overnight stay, and we went to an authentic Mexican restaurant. What fun, other than having some trouble ordering.