I'd like to learn about Islam

[alpaca]

Hey everyone, this is my first post so I apologize in advance if I go about this clumsily. If I have too many questions, don't sweat it, I'd appreciate any answers to any questions.

I come from agnostic parents, who came from Christian, Hindu and atheist parents. I've never had a reason to explore religion further than my own intuitive belief that there is one God. Recently, though, I've taken to learning about Islam, which I think is severely misunderstood in the West (and perhaps by some of its own adherents).

I've read a bit of Karen Armstrong's take on it as being inherently tolerant and reasonable, and she paints a less than "fundamentalist" picture of it. Do you agree with her outlook, if you've heard of her (I'd like to hear your side whether or not you're a Muslim)? Do you think that the prophet Muhammad would approve of later spiritual teachers?

I'd like to know, too, what the Hadith means to you. Why is it essential to try to imitate the prophet Muhammad? Are the traditions essential to becoming closer to God, or are they one way to do so? Is imitating Jesus alright as well, are they seen as the same sort of man, or did Muhammad's ways replace those of Jesus as those to be imitated? I understand that the actions are not ends, but rather a means to an end: becoming closer to the ineffable presence of God by purifying the mind and making one humble. What if they become mundane and obligatory-- is it better to stop performing them until they become spiritual again?

What does the tree of knowledge mean? This is a more basic question that applies to all of the Abrahamic religions I suppose. Why is knowledge bad if it makes man into free, moral creatures? Why was God upset that Adam and Eve ate from it when it put the tree there and knew that by forbiding it in particular, they'd end up eating its fruit? God is omniscient. Do you suppose that this story is symbolic of the first moral humans in the line of evolution (I understand that some Muslims believe in evol. and some don't)?

I actually find Islam a very intriguing, beautiful religion when not practiced by extremists. I could ALMOST call myself a Muslim, because I think it's very possible that Muhammad received revelation from God. However, there are so many rules for my Western, secular, philosophically subjectivist-type mind I like to draw people, and there are a few Hadiths that say I will be called upon to breath life into them. Then perhaps be sent to hell I have also been reading about emerging evidence of a "homosexual gene," which puts gays in an awfully tough position.

At the same time, the highly structured and morally responsible nature of Islam, as well as its respect for science, is very appealing to me-- perhaps because I've never been given structure.

Anyway, I'd love to hear your take on these subjects.

Kim

 

[alpaca]

Any thoughts at all to share? I don't mind whether it's opinion or generally accepted interpretation. Am i off about the tree of knowledge (not sure if it's the same as I understand it from Christianity)? I know you are reading this

 

[kai]

hello and welcome try reading through the threads in the Islamic section, there are lots of interesting things there you may want to post some questions there also.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam/

 

[alpaca]

Thanks! I have looked through the Islam section and found everything pretty interesting, but I'd like to get some more specific questions answered. If this thread's more appropriate for that section, is there any way for me to move it?

 

[kai]

dont worry about it, anyway i am sure it will draw the attention of some knowledgable people

 

[maro]

Hi Kim , and welcome to the forum dear

I've read a bit of Karen Armstrong's take on it as being inherently tolerant and reasonable, and she paints a less than "fundamentalist" picture of it. Do you agree with her outlook, if you've heard of her (I'd like to hear your side whether or not you're a Muslim)?

This the first time for me to hear of her , so i can't answer this one

Do you think that the prophet Muhammad would approve of later spiritual teachers?

As muslims , we believe prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was the last prophet and messenger to humanity....if by spiritual teacher , you mean some one who claims to be a prophet...so the answer is no...if you mean someone who Reminds people with god and his attributes..so the answer is yes

I'd like to know, too, what the Hadith means to you.

The authentic hadith is an integral part of our religion...both the quran and the hadith are revealations...the difference is that the quran (the arabic) is the litteral word of allah..while al hadith are the words of prophet Muhammad (PBUH)

[53:3] Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire.

[4] It is no less than inspiration sent down to him (Quran)

Why is it essential to try to imitate the prophet Muhammad?

because of this

[33:21] Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the praise of Allah.

Are the traditions essential to becoming closer to God, or are they one way to do so?

if you mean the rituals of worship , like the daily five prayers , fasting the month of Ramadan....So , yes sure

Is imitating Jesus alright as well, are they seen as the same sort of man, or did Muhammad's ways replace those of Jesus as those to be imitated?

yes sure , muslims should imitate all the prophets of Allah..They all believed in One god and they all had the same message to deliver

I understand that the actions are not ends, but rather a means to an end: becoming closer to the ineffable presence of God by purifying the mind and making one humble. What if they become mundane and obligatory-- is it better to stop performing them until they become spiritual again?

i guess stoping the rituals /actions is not a very good choice to make them spiritual..The right thing is to keep praying to God and struggle to raise the spirituality and humbleness

What does the tree of knowledge mean? This is a more basic question that applies to all of the Abrahamic religions I suppose. Why is knowledge bad if it makes man into free, moral creatures? Why was God upset that Adam and Eve ate from it when it put the tree there and knew that by forbiding it in particular, they'd end up eating its fruit? God is omniscient. Do you suppose that this story is symbolic of the first moral humans in the line of evolution (I understand that some Muslims believe in evol. and some don't)?

I never read in any islamic source that the tree of Adam was the tree of knowledge , and i don't think any muslim would dare to say such a thing for a very simple reason, this is the place of knowledge in Islam: Read !

However, there are so many rules for my Western, secular, philosophically subjectivist-type mind I like to draw people, and there are a few Hadiths that say I will be called upon to breath life into them. Then perhaps be sent to hell

sorry , i don't understand

I have also been reading about emerging evidence of a "homosexual gene," which puts gays in an awfully tough position.

okay , when the evidence fully emerges inshallah..we may discuss the issue

Feel free to ask about anything else ,dear

 

[Peace]

Welcome dear Kim Sorry for not seeing this before. You can ask your questions at Islam DIR. In addition to what my sister maro, below are some beneficial links as an answer to what you asked.

I'd like to know, too, what the Hadith means to you. Why is it essential to try to imitate the prophet Muhammad? Are the traditions essential to becoming closer to God, or are they one way to do so? Is imitating Jesus alright as well, are they seen as the same sort of man, or did Muhammad's ways replace those of Jesus as those to be imitated? I understand that the actions are not ends, but rather a means to an end: becoming closer to the ineffable presence of God by purifying the mind and making one humble. What if they become mundane and obligatory-- is it better to stop performing them until they become spiritual again?

Reading Islam.com - Ask About Islam

What does the tree of knowledge mean? This is a more basic question that applies to all of the Abrahamic religions I suppose. Why is knowledge bad if it makes man into free, moral creatures? Why was God upset that Adam and Eve ate from it when it put the tree there and knew that by forbiding it in particular, they'd end up eating its fruit? God is omniscient. Do you suppose that this story is symbolic of the first moral humans in the line of evolution (I understand that some Muslims believe in evol. and some don't)?

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...kAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE&cid=1195032880070



All you questions are welcomed! You could even ask any question you have to the scholars at IslamOnline.net- Home - Islam, Muslim, News, Shari`ah, Society, Family, Culture, Arts, Science

"We will live by the Quran"​

 

[alpaca]

Thanks, the links will be really helpful, because I probably should talk to a scholar about more debatable concepts. I'll also be visiting a mosque again pretty soon so i might be able to talk an an imam.

 

[alpaca]

Sorry about being confusing, Maro. I meant that I've read certain Hadiths that say that it is frowned upon to draw living things (if I recall correctly, the prophet said that artists will be called upon on the day of judgment and asked to breathe life into their creations, which of course they won't be able to do). If you like, i can find the specific Hadiths.

This is difficult for me to understand, especially since I've been drawing since i was little and never meant any harm. I think that the idea behind this ruling is that there's the danger of such art to be worshiped as idols. I know that a lot of the rules are based on intention (if you have a bad intention while drawing or listening to certain music, then this is also haram).

Another thing I'm having a hard time understanding is the concept of Hell, that anyone could deserve to go there. People act the way they do because of how they grew up, their genes and their reasoning skills. If you've read about determinism (I highly recommend reading about it, I've heard of Muslim determinists) then it seems like there's little room for free will. How does it work-- did God set in motion the natural laws and then the result is the development of all kinds of different people? Not everyone will think the same or have the same sense of morality. A lot of people commit crime because of some injustice that happened to them when they were little, and they don't desire to change, or think they can. What if they don't have any sense of right or wrong? Why do they deserve to go to Hell-- or do you think that God will be very merciful on the day of judgment?

Thanks very much for answering questions so far, and I look forward to hearing from you

 

[TashaN]

Thanks! I have looked through the Islam section and found everything pretty interesting, but I'd like to get some more specific questions answered. If this thread's more appropriate for that section, is there any way for me to move it?

I have moved the thread for you to the Islam section so it can draw the attention of all the Muslims there.

 

[TashaN]

Sorry about being confusing, Maro. I meant that I've read certain Hadiths that say that it is frowned upon to draw living things (if I recall correctly, the prophet said that artists will be called upon on the day of judgment and asked to breathe life into their creations, which of course they won't be able to do). If you like, i can find the specific Hadiths.

This is difficult for me to understand, especially since I've been drawing since i was little and never meant any harm. I think that the idea behind this ruling is that there's the danger of such art to be worshiped as idols. I know that a lot of the rules are based on intention (if you have a bad intention while drawing or listening to certain music, then this is also haram).

Yeah, i got what you mean. I'm a Muslim and my rommates as well. He always used to draw, and share his drawing, and we enjoy his drawing. We have a very talented muslim sister here in the forums as well who is really good with drawing.

There is nothing wrong with drawing. That hadith, based on my understanding, and the opinion of the scholars i have encountered mean that it's not allowed to make idols, like the ones the arabs had before Islam around the Ka'aba in Mekkah. There are always some logic behind the rulings in Islam whether we were be able to find out about them or not. Regarding the case you have mentioned. It's a sad story. It started long time a go, before the time of Prophet Noah. There were pious men whom people respected and loved so much that after they passed away, people made idols/statues which looks like those pious men. They did it just to remember those pious men and to remind themselves that they always have to be good like them. Then, after many generations, people started forgetting why these idols were created in the first place, and started worshipping them till Prophet Noah came and told them that these idols are useless. They can't bring benefit, nor do harm, and can't even protect itself. Then if you are familiar with the story, you know the rest and what happened after that with Noah and his people.

That's why, it became forbidden to make such things because people might forget and start worshipping it. That's of course one part of the answer of why it's not allowed, and i'm sure there are many other reasons. If you are still not satisfied with the short story of Noah and his people i have just mentioned, i can bring for you the whole story in details if you are interested.

I hope that answered somehow your question. I'm not a scholar but i'm just trying to help.

Another thing I'm having a hard time understanding is the concept of Hell, that anyone could deserve to go there. People act the way they do because of how they grew up, their genes and their reasoning skills. If you've read about determinism (I highly recommend reading about it, I've heard of Muslim determinists) then it seems like there's little room for free will. How does it work-- did God set in motion the natural laws and then the result is the development of all kinds of different people? Not everyone will think the same or have the same sense of morality. A lot of people commit crime because of some injustice that happened to them when they were little, and they don't desire to change, or think they can. What if they don't have any sense of right or wrong? Why do they deserve to go to Hell-- or do you think that God will be very merciful on the day of judgment?

Believe me when i say this, when it comes to this issue, it's really not easy to give a quick answer or an answer which is based on a short verse from the Quran or a certain hadith.

Even though i was born as a Muslim, but i was having these types of questions as well, and i didn't ignore them, but i kept reading more and more till i found a perfect explaination for this issue--i won't call it an answer because what might have satisfied me might not do so with you--and it was a great one, in my opinion. I found it in a book for an american professor who converted to Islam. The book is Losing My Religion: A Call For Help by Jeffrey Lang.

The author is an American mathematician, currently a professor in the Department of Mathematics at the University of Kansas. Lang was born in a Roman Catholic family. Although he went to a Roman Catholic school, by the time Jeffrey was 16, he was an atheist. He converted to Islam in the early 1980s, and admits that he finds much spiritual satisfaction being a Muslim.

Jeffrey Lang - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He has three books and i have all of them with me. They are amongst the best books i have ever purchased.

The book i refer you to regarding this matter you are asking about has a review here:

Amazon.com: Losing My Religion: A Call For Help: Jeffrey Lang: Books

I'll quote part of the first review there:

Have you ever felt out of place in the Mosque? Ever feel you couldn't really express yourself freely in the Muslim community? Ever wonder about issues such as pre-destination versus free-will, or the purpose of life and suffering? Ever question whether the Prophet (s) REALLY said this or that hadith? Ever feel a conflict between the need to submit to God and the need to rationally explore Islam? Ever wonder why Imams and Scholars never really seem to answer difficult questions, but criticize those who ask or brush them aside?

If so, you are not alone, and could benefit from LOSING MY RELIGION: A CALL FOR HELP. Throughout the book, Lang, tackles such difficult questions and comments put forth to him by second generation Muslim Americans (and Canadians), converts, doubters, apostates, evangelists, and others. He uses the Qu'ran, the hadith, and numerous resources from both Muslim and Non-Muslim scholars of Islam, but most importantly, he also uses reason. What results is a rare book which squarely addresses issues facing the Muslim community, with a particular emphasis on current Mosque culture and the place of rationality in Muslim thought and discourse.

Its important to note at the outset that Lang is not some Muslim hack or discontent who wishes to change the religion to suit his desires. Reading the book, it is quite clear that he is a devout Muslim who takes his religion, including the rituals very seriously (he prays regularly, and very often in the Mosque). His compassion, love and concern for his family and his mother also shine through.

If you ever decided to buy this book "which i'm sure you will never ever regret" then all what you have to do is to turn into page 132 in that book and read through till page 147. He was answering many questions in that book regarding the issues you have mentioned. I loved that he took a modern approach to tackle these difficult issues rather than the traditional answers we used to get which might suit some people, but not others, especially those from a western background. I'm sure once you finish reading that book, you will hurry and buy the other two.

Thanks very much for answering questions so far, and I look forward to hearing from you

You are most welcome. If you have more questions please don't hesitate to ask whatever that question was and we will try to help with the best of our abilities.

 

[maro]

Sorry about being confusing, Maro. I meant that I've read certain Hadiths that say that it is frowned upon to draw living things (if I recall correctly, the prophet said that artists will be called upon on the day of judgment and asked to breathe life into their creations, which of course they won't be able to do). If you like, i can find the specific Hadiths.

This is difficult for me to understand, especially since I've been drawing since i was little and never meant any harm. I think that the idea behind this ruling is that there's the danger of such art to be worshiped as idols. I know that a lot of the rules are based on intention (if you have a bad intention while drawing or listening to certain music, then this is also haram).

Hope this will be helpful : Drawing from an Islamic Perspective - IslamonLine.net - Ask The Scholar

Another thing I'm having a hard time understanding is the concept of Hell, that anyone could deserve to go there. People act the way they do because of how they grew up, their genes and their reasoning skills. If you've read about determinism (I highly recommend reading about it, I've heard of Muslim determinists) then it seems like there's little room for free will. How does it work-- did God set in motion the natural laws and then the result is the development of all kinds of different people? Not everyone will think the same or have the same sense of morality.

i am reading a book that is called : A contemporary Approach to understand the quran by Dr. Mostafa Mahmoud..the second chapter of the book is called :Free will or predestination..starting from page 35...Mostafa Mahmoud The Quran An Attempt at Modern Reading ... i recommend reading it , it might be helpful inshallah

and btw ,there is nothing called muslim determinists , because determinism demolishes what Islam is all about

A lot of people commit crime because of some injustice that happened to them when they were little, and they don't desire to change, or think they can. What if they don't have any sense of right or wrong? Why do they deserve to go to Hell-- or do you think that God will be very merciful on the day of judgment?

As muslims we belive Allah is all merciful and just..and that his mercy always prevails his wrath..that's why we don't spend much time arguing how the judgment is going to be..we put our trust in Allah , and then start acting for our own judgment...I recommend reading the story of Prophet Yusef from the quran (chapter 12)...if you read about the hardships he had to go through during his early childhood..you would say i wouldn't blame him if he turned to be a serial killer (God frorbid)..but look what he turned to be...the quran is teaching us that there is a free factor inside us that can and should defeat all circumstances..and that we should start bearing the responsibility of our choices instead of being apologetic

Thanks very much for answering questions so far, and I look forward to hearing from you

You are most welcome

 

[alpaca]

I'll be sure to read Jeffery Lang's thoughts on the matter. I've found that whenever I get stuck on an idea, it always helps to read a scholarly work on the subject.
Plus I really enjoy the writings of Ibn Arabi, though his interpretations are probably debatable. I know little about the different sects of Islam-- why are they there? Is it okay just to call oneself Muslim and not a part of either/a part of both? I was also wondering what makes one officially Muslim. There was a moment in time when I believed in all of Muhammad's teachings, but now I've gotten to questioning them again and I think I would need much more time to fully understand what Islam is. It's a very gradual process of learning for me, but I've stopped drinking and eating meat, as well as become more helpful around the house, so i like the effect that the teachings have on me. So, does this mean i was a muslim at one point? I already believe in one God-- it's the writings i need to study more.
Thanks for your help!i'll be gone for a week in alaska starting tomorrow but i'll come back to talk more about it.

Kim

 

[loulou]

hello Kim,
I'm so glade to see how far you got in your understanding of Islam...i wish you all the best!!
what makes a muslim offciallly muslim is to say Shahada; that is that their no God but Allah & that Mouhammed peace be upon him is his last massenger to mankind...after that you can declare yourself muslim..
i wish you all the best

 

[Zophius]

I'm not a Muslim, just a longtime student of Islam. So I can't tell you how to be a Muslim, but I may be able to give some pointers on things that will be useful to you.

I know little about the different sects of Islam-- why are they there?

This is a big question for a discussion board! The big split between Sunni and Shi'i Islam began as a political dispute over the succession to Muhammad but later became associated with different theological orientations. (The Kharijis had a similar origin, but there are few of them around anymore.) Shi'i Islam is a bit like Protestantism in that it went through many divisive doctrinal debates and tended to splinter into factions as time went on. Thus most of the distinct sects in Islam are on the Shi'i side: Ithna'asharis, Isma'ilis, Nusayris - not to mention groups that broke away from Islam entirely like the Druze.

Sunni Islam has produced fewer major "sects" as such, but there is a divergence between exoteric tendencies (those that focus on a literal reading of the Qur'an and shar'iah and upholding the collective moral order) and esoteric ones (those that focus on finding the deeper meaning of texts, which may not correspond to their literal meaning at all, and on achieving a personal experience of the divine). I think most Islam combines the two to one extent or another, but that the ideal types are probably Sa'udi Wahhabism at the exoteric end and Sufism at the other. (There are also Sufis in Shi'i Islam, so it's a pretty complex situation.) As for where these tendencies come from, they may be inherent in any kind of monotheism: both Judaism and Christianity have produced a similar division between outward-looking orthodoxy and inward-looking mysticism. Somehow I think you will find the Sufis more appealing than the Wahhabis.

As for further reading... Karen Armstrong is very readable, but I feel her scholarship is suspect. If you are looking for an excellent introductory book on the very early days of Islam, I'd recommend H. Montgomery Watt, Muhammad: Prophet and Statesman. If you really want to understand how Islam evolved into all its different varieties after Muhammad, the single best source I know of is Marshall Hodgson, The Venture of Islam (there are 3 volumes, but vol. 1 covers the crucial early centuries). This is very dense and complex history, so don't tackle it until you have a decent grasp of the basics. Finally, if you like Ibn 'Arabi and are interested in learning more about Sufism in general, Annemarie Schimmel's Mystical Dimensions in Islam comes highly recommended.

God bless you on your spiritual path.

 

[maro]

. I know little about the different sects of Islam-- why are they there? Is it okay just to call oneself Muslim and not a part of either/a part of both?

you may check this : http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam/56949-sect-islam-do-i-join.html

I was also wondering what makes one officially Muslim.

The pillars of Imân are six: they are to believe in Allâh, in His angels, in His books, in His messengers, the Last Day, and to believe in the divine decree it’s good and bad from Allâh


The pillars of Islam are five : http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam/40552-pillars-islam.html?highlight=pillars

It's a very gradual process of learning for me, but I've stopped drinking and eating meat, as well as become more helpful around the house, so i like the effect that the teachings have on me.

Eating meat is not forbidden in islam ,Kim. Only Pork

So, does this mean i was a muslim at one point? I already believe in one God-- it's the writings i need to study more.

Allah knows who is a muslim and who isn't , but i believe that you have a muslim heart dear ,Mashallah Take your time in the study and don't forget to always ask allah for guidance for youself , and for your muslim sisters and brothers here on RF...supplication is sometimes magic

 

[Sahar]

Another thing I'm having a hard time understanding is the concept of Hell, that anyone could deserve to go there. People act the way they do because of how they grew up, their genes and their reasoning skills. If you've read about determinism (I highly recommend reading about it, I've heard of Muslim determinists) then it seems like there's little room for free will. How does it work-- did God set in motion the natural laws and then the result is the development of all kinds of different people? Not everyone will think the same or have the same sense of morality. A lot of people commit crime because of some injustice that happened to them when they were little....

I believe we are able to choose how to perceive and respond to the different circumstances. A person may fail to achieve his goal once, twice...etc. and here he can choose to surrender or to be positive and try again and again until he reaches his goal. We are able to choose to surrender to our circumstances and use them as excuses for our failure or overcome them. Positivity is a choice.
You, me, and every body else can sense this in our daily life. How to perceive the circumstances is a matter of free will. Every circumstance we are put in is a test and a lot of times we make our own circumstances by our hands.
A person who doesn't earn enough salary to provide a good life for his kids, can earn more money through illegal ways, steal or can improve himself, search for another work....etc.
Life is the sum of everyday tests.

 

[Peace]

It's a very gradual process of learning for me, but I've stopped drinking and eating meat,

Eating meat is not forbidden in islam ,Kim. Only Pork

May be she is talking about meat which is not slaughtered in an Islamic way.

"We will live by the Quran" ​

 

[alpaca]

Yep, that is the meat I was talking about I have no idea how to get meat that was slaughtered in an Islamic way, but I don't really feel the need to eat meat, especially since I'd prefer not to be a part of an animal's suffering. I do still eat fish because I don't feel as bad about that.. i hope that's ok.

Thanks again for the comments and reading suggestions. I'm going to a Mosque, God willing, in about an hour. I'll be bringing some questions with me, and still I don't really know what to expect. It's intimidating going into a place where you don't know the proper ediquette, what to expect, etc. But I'm sure I'll learn a lot from it.

Kim

 

[Peace]

Yep, that is the meat I was talking about I have no idea how to get meat that was slaughtered in an Islamic way, but I don't really feel the need to eat meat, especially since I'd prefer not to be a part of an animal's suffering. I do still eat fish because I don't feel as bad about that.. i hope that's ok.

Thanks again for the comments and reading suggestions. I'm going to a Mosque, God willing, in about an hour. I'll be bringing some questions with me, and still I don't really know what to expect. It's intimidating going into a place where you don't know the proper ediquette, what to expect, etc. But I'm sure I'll learn a lot from it.

Kim

Yeah sure you can eat fish wherever you are
I wish you all the best in your spiritual journey. Please feel at ease to ask any question you have. And don't forget to share with us your mosque experience

All the best,
Peace