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Ideology and Biased Narratives in the Personal Work of Academics

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Recently, I have been reading and listening to some material from Steven Pinker, Jordan Peterson, and Sam Harris. While the three have many ideological differences among themselves, I have found a common thread to be self-congratulatory exaltation of "Western culture," an ill-defined term that has no rigorous definition, while propagating notions of "human progress" in different forms—especially in Pinker's case. Harris mixes his own progress narrative, or what I call an anti-theistic "salvation" narrative, with anti-religious views and sweeping generalizations about how humanity would supposedly be so much better off without religion.

What I find especially concerning about the conspicuously ideological bent of these narratives is that Pinker and Peterson try to present their ideas behind a scientific veneer, and although both have a considerable volume of academic work, those specific claims are separate from both psychologists' expertise and not based on any rigorous science. Peterson frequently leans into Jungian psychoanalysis, for example, even though it is now widely considered by academics to be pseudoscientific or at least not up to modern scientific standards (understandably, given how long ago Jung lived), and he has been criticized by some experts and academics for making unfounded and inaccurate claims about more than one subject, such as philosophy (e.g., positing the existence of a conspiracy against "Western culture" from "posmodern neo-Marxists," the latter being an oxymoronic term) and biology (e.g., his now-notorious argument for social hierarchy among humans based on lobsters' biology).

Pinker, on the other hand, has received a fair share of criticism for his arguments about supposed "progress," including from fellow academics. Much like Peterson, his expertise in his field didn't prevent him from giving a heavily ideological view of human affairs rather than an impartial, evidence-based perspective. Getting into each of his inaccurate claims (although he also makes some accurate ones) would require multiple threads, but the synopsis is that, much like a few other high-profile anti-religious figures, Pinker believes in quasi-millenarian human progress that is supposedly rooted in "Enlightenment values" and taps into multiple historically and scientifically dubious notions to that end.

Harris has a PhD in neuroscience but has run thought experiments where torture and a nuclear first strike would supposedly be justified, and he has made many simplistic claims about religious belief in addition to, again, leaning into notions of superiority of "Western culture" to "Eastern culture" (both equally ill-defined terms).

The first question I'm asking myself here is that if these highly prolific academics who claim to champion "reason," "science," "skepticism," etc., are so prone to advancing their own ideology and personal narratives despite evidence to the contrary, are we really "progressing" beyond our human nature that includes irrationality, tribalism, and bias? Peer review within academic and scholarly communities reins in so much of these biases, sure, but such narratives are often published in books that don't have to abide by academic standards or stand the test of peer review. The result is that flimsy and unevidenced arguments could be presented as "rational" and "scientific" to the average person even though they don't withstand rigorous scrutiny, and starkly ideological and tribalistic narratives (e.g., about "Western culture" versus other cultures or religion versus irreligion) are thrown into the mix as if they were objective truths rather than merely another personal opinion.

In your view, how can the average person distinguish between evidenced claims from an expert and unevidenced, personal opinions that some could give weight just because they're espoused in a book by an expert in a given field? When or how can an average person confidently point to some of the (personal rather than academic) work of someone like Steven Pinker, a widely respected psychologist in terms of research, and say that at least some of it is based on ideology and not rigorous, peer-reviewed science or reliable historical knowledge?

Tagging @Augustus, @Rival, and @exchemist because I suspect they might find this subject interesting.
 
The first question I'm asking myself here is that if these highly prolific academics who claim to champion "reason," "science," "skepticism," etc., are so prone to advancing their own ideology and personal narratives despite evidence to the contrary, are we really "progressing" beyond our human nature that includes irrationality, tribalism, and bias?

As an advocate of the tragic view of humanity, I have no expectation that we can overcome our nature.

We are just animals after all, nothing exceptional about us.


Humanists today, who claim to take a wholly secular view of things, scoff at mysticism and religion. But the unique status of humans is hard to defend, and even to understand, when it is cut off from any idea of transcendence. In a strictly naturalistic view – one in which the world is taken on its own terms, without reference to a creator or any spiritual realm – there is no hierarchy of value with humans at the top. There are simply multifarious animals, each with their own needs. Human uniqueness is a myth inherited from religion, which humanists have recycled into science...

When contemporary humanists invoke the idea of progress they are mixing together two different myths: a Socratic myth of reason and a Christian myth of salvation. If the resulting body of ideas is incoherent, that is the source of its appeal. Humanists believe that humanity improves along with the growth of knowledge, but the belief that the increase of knowledge goes with advances in civilization is an act of faith. They see the realization of human potential as the goal of history, when rational inquiry shows history to have no goal. They exalt nature, while insisting that humankind – an accident of nature – can overcome the natural limits that shape the lives of other animals. Plainly absurd, this nonsense gives meaning to the lives of people who believe they have left all myths behind. To expect humanists to give up their myths would be unreasonable. Like cheap music, the myth of progress lifts the spirits as it numbs the brain. The fact that rational humanity shows no sign of ever arriving only makes humanists cling more fervently to the conviction that humankind will someday be redeemed from unreason. Like believers in flying saucers, they interpret the non-event as confirming their faith...

Science is a solvent of illusion, and among the illusions it dissolves are those of humanism. Human knowledge increases, while human irrationality stays the same. Scientific inquiry may be an embodiment of reason, but what such inquiry demonstrates is that humans are not rational animals...

Modern myths are myths of salvation stated in secular terms. What both kinds of myths have in common is that they answer to a need for meaning that cannot be denied. In order to survive, humans have invented science. Pursued consistently, scientific inquiry acts to undermine myth. But life without myth is impossible, so science has become a channel for myths – chief among them, a myth of salvation through science. When truth is at odds with meaning, it is meaning that wins. Why this should be so is a delicate question. Why is meaning so important? Why do humans need a reason to live? Is it because they could not endure life if they did not believe it contained hidden significance?
The silence of animals: On progress and other modern myths


In your view, how can the average person distinguish between evidenced claims from an expert and unevidenced, personal opinions that some could give weight just because they're espoused in a book by an expert in a given field? When or how can an average person confidently point to some of the (personal rather than academic) work of someone like Steven Pinker, a widely respected psychologist in terms of research, and say that at least some of it is based on ideology and not rigorous, peer-reviewed science or reliable historical knowledge?

In general, we can’t really, at least not consistently. Obviously on some issues we may notice, but we can’t be consistently rational.

Most people “outsource” a lot of their thinking to those they deem credible and more knowledgeable on a given issue. We tend to find people we “like” on topics and give them a lot of abiiity to influence us. Tbh we often have no ability to evaluate competing arguments made by experts in a field and just pick a side.

This is not necessarily a bad thing, just a fact if life that we have neither the time nor cognitive ability to do everything ourselves. As such we often designate proxies as “go to” sources on particular topics.

If such proxies stray outside their expertise, they may still have undue influence as we often don’t really know or notice.
 

Orbit

I'm a planet
Recently, I have been reading and listening to some material from Steven Pinker, Jordan Peterson, and Sam Harris. While the three have many ideological differences among themselves, I have found a common thread to be self-congratulatory exaltation of "Western culture," an ill-defined term that has no rigorous definition, while propagating notions of "human progress" in different forms—especially in Pinker's case. Harris mixes his own progress narrative, or what I call an anti-theistic "salvation" narrative, with anti-religious views and sweeping generalizations about how humanity would supposedly be so much better off without religion.

What I find especially concerning about the conspicuously ideological bent of these narratives is that Pinker and Peterson try to present their ideas behind a scientific veneer, and although both have a considerable volume of academic work, those specific claims are separate from both psychologists' expertise and not based on any rigorous science. Peterson frequently leans into Jungian psychoanalysis, for example, even though it is now widely considered by academics to be pseudoscientific or at least not up to modern scientific standards (understandably, given how long ago Jung lived), and he has been criticized by some experts and academics for making unfounded and inaccurate claims about more than one subject, such as philosophy (e.g., positing the existence of a conspiracy against "Western culture" from "posmodern neo-Marxists," the latter being an oxymoronic term) and biology (e.g., his now-notorious argument for social hierarchy among humans based on lobsters' biology).

Pinker, on the other hand, has received a fair share of criticism for his arguments about supposed "progress," including from fellow academics. Much like Peterson, his expertise in his field didn't prevent him from giving a heavily ideological view of human affairs rather than an impartial, evidence-based perspective. Getting into each of his inaccurate claims (although he also makes some accurate ones) would require multiple threads, but the synopsis is that, much like a few other high-profile anti-religious figures, Pinker believes in quasi-millenarian human progress that is supposedly rooted in "Enlightenment values" and taps into multiple historically and scientifically dubious notions to that end.

Harris has a PhD in neuroscience but has run thought experiments where torture and a nuclear first strike would supposedly be justified, and he has made many simplistic claims about religious belief in addition to, again, leaning into notions of superiority of "Western culture" to "Eastern culture" (both equally ill-defined terms).

The first question I'm asking myself here is that if these highly prolific academics who claim to champion "reason," "science," "skepticism," etc., are so prone to advancing their own ideology and personal narratives despite evidence to the contrary, are we really "progressing" beyond our human nature that includes irrationality, tribalism, and bias? Peer review within academic and scholarly communities reins in so much of these biases, sure, but such narratives are often published in books that don't have to abide by academic standards or stand the test of peer review. The result is that flimsy and unevidenced arguments could be presented as "rational" and "scientific" to the average person even though they don't withstand rigorous scrutiny, and starkly ideological and tribalistic narratives (e.g., about "Western culture" versus other cultures or religion versus irreligion) are thrown into the mix as if they were objective truths rather than merely another personal opinion.

In your view, how can the average person distinguish between evidenced claims from an expert and unevidenced, personal opinions that some could give weight just because they're espoused in a book by an expert in a given field? When or how can an average person confidently point to some of the (personal rather than academic) work of someone like Steven Pinker, a widely respected psychologist in terms of research, and say that at least some of it is based on ideology and not rigorous, peer-reviewed science or reliable historical knowledge?

Tagging @Augustus, @Rival, and @exchemist because I suspect they might find this subject interesting.

The common thread that I notice is that each of your three example academics stray outside of their field of expertise and make pronouncements about areas outside of their training, Harris especially. Jordan Peterson is a train wreck, imo commenting on all kinds of social issues where he has not had any training in analyzing society. His pronouncements about gender issues are especially suspect as he is not a gender scholar nor a sociologist. I'm not as familiar with Pinker, so maybe you can enlighten me there.

Academics are people in general, subject to all the flaws that people in general are subject to; but in the main I think most adhere to the scientific method in good faith, to the best of their ability given their social location and historical context. There will always be academics who are more interested in being public figures than in doing solid work; they capture the public imagination. Timothy Leary comes to mind.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
The common thread that I notice is that each of your three example academics stray outside of their field of expertise and make pronouncements about areas outside of their training...
Yup.

I think there's also something to be said for how fame (or notoriety) ungrounds folks. The academics I've worked with are basically unknowns outside of nerd circles. They're not trying to be mainstream celebrities, or stir up trouble outside of their auspices. They're all very grounded people. I'm not going to pretend my experience in this counts for much, but I look at folks like some of these celebrities and can't help but think of them as very bad examples of how scientists typically operate.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Oh, and to add:
In your view, how can the average person distinguish between evidenced claims from an expert and unevidenced, personal opinions that some could give weight just because they're espoused in a book by an expert in a given field?
Talk to a librarian or media specialist. Seriously. As someone who grew up surrounded by those types and by libraries, this is absolutely a media specialist area of expertise. They are all about helping folks navigate sources of information and how to be discerning regarding them.
 

Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I listen to a lot of Sam Harris and have no trouble distinguishing between Sam Harris the academic and Sam Harris the opinionator when he’s speaking. I also can’t say I’ve ever heard him champion the West and put down the East. I think I’d be incredibly aware of any such comments as half my family is from Asia. Perhaps what you’re referring to is his criticism of Islam, which he often uses as an example of religion run amok.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Apples and oranges.

Jordan Peterson is a deeply dishonest hack. Harris is an opinionated scholar with often brilliant insights and who has the courage to point out often seriously underappreciated, real challenges. Pinker seems to be more of a "pure" academic far as I know.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I listen to a lot of Sam Harris and have no trouble distinguishing between Sam Harris the academic and Sam Harris the opinionator when he’s speaking. I also can’t say I’ve ever heard him champion the West and put down the East. I think I’d be incredibly aware of any such comments as half my family is from Asia. Perhaps what you’re referring to is his criticism of Islam, which he often uses as an example of religion run amok.
For all his insight into the matter of religion, Harris seems not to have a very good sense of how different religion can be (and is) from the Abrahamics. And of course, he has no qualms about pointing out the trouble of Islam.

I feel very grateful for him for taking that rather bothersome but very necessary task.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
I listen to a lot of Sam Harris and have no trouble distinguishing between Sam Harris the academic and Sam Harris the opinionator when he’s speaking. I also can’t say I’ve ever heard him champion the West and put down the East. I think I’d be incredibly aware of any such comments as half my family is from Asia. Perhaps what you’re referring to is his criticism of Islam, which he often uses as an example of religion run amok.

No, not merely his criticism of Islam as a religion, although that also has its share of problems mainly because he ignores or attacks moderates (such as by calling them inconsistent and accusing them of shielding extremism) and talks about Islam, a large and highly diverse religion with many sects, as if it were monolithic and reducible to literalist and fundamentalist strains.

This is an example of how he has brought "culture" into his arguments before:


I don't think it's possible to cite a specific part of that video as the only relevant one, because I think all of it ties into the point I made about Harris. Instead of considering why some countries currently have specific problems, he boils their issues down to "culture" and overlooks or denies the effects of various other factors (which, in their own turn, contribute to shaping cultures as well) while promoting a rhetorically softened and more presentable version of what, in my view, is essentially a variety of Western supremacism.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
No, not merely his criticism of Islam as a religion, although that also has its share of problems mainly because he ignores or attacks moderates (such as by calling them inconsistent and accusing them of shielding extremism) and talks about Islam, a large and highly diverse religion with many sects, as if it were monolithic and reducible to literalist and fundamentalist strains.

This is an example of how he has brought "culture" into his arguments before:


I don't think it's possible to cite a specific part of that video as the only relevant one, because I think all of it ties into the point I made about Harris. Instead of considering why some countries currently have specific problems, he boils their issues down to "culture" and overlooks or denies the effects of various other factors (which, in their own turn, contribute to shaping cultures as well) while promoting a rhetorically softened and more presentable version of what, in my view, is essentially a variety of Western supremacism.
Without hopefully missing the point here, I'm pushing aside the specific examples of Harris, Pinker and Peterson (I'll declare I'm not a fan of Harris or Peterson, and have experience with Pinker only in a very specific realm, as he writes on education, a topic I still engage with to a decently detailed level despite no longer working in education.

I think there are a couple of different things at play generally.
One is a basically idealistic position on a topic. So, assume you had a blank slate country to run, what political, cultural and religious systems would you see as 'best'? It's subjective, of course, and not a choice you'll ever face in real life. But I think it's a reasonable enough thought exercise to consider this. I suspect it's something you've engaged with too.

The second is more a pragmatic position on a topic. So, great...you've decided Marxism is the 'best' economic system, but considering the current position of a given country, how do you move towards this? Again, I suspect it is something you have thought about, as you've expressed reservations about violence, which would seem less idealistic than Marx, and more a nod to the pain and suffering this move to the 'ideal' would cause.

To me, Peterson and Harris deal more with the ideal, and less with pragmatic real-life (and therefore flawed) examples and challenges. That is based on listening to them, but I won't pretend I consume all (or even close to most) of their content. It's just a subset I've engaged with.

So...I guess it's possible that you could see it as Western supremacism, and in some senses I don't think either man would actually disagree with you. But I don't think you should quickly dismiss it as such. Unless you disagree that it's possible and somewhat unavoidable to consider which systems of law, economics, government and religion are 'the best'. Or at least how you might go about identifying those that are not the best.

When you start comparing these guys ideals and high level thoughts to specific and more nuanced instances, I think there are a lot of wholes, and/or over-generalisations, which is why I don't find them especially compelling.

I'd be interested to engage in any specific arguments any of the three make, if you like, since I think it's challenging at best to have an overarching view on their 'value', as they do comment on wideranging things both within and without their professional areas of expertise.
Nor do I think expertise is compelling in any simple sense. A psychologist talking about thinking is perhaps interesting, and nuanced, but if he's running contrary to other pyschologists on an issue, any simple appeal to expertise becomes obviously problematic.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
About shielding extremism, @Debater Slayer , I would love to learn that Sam Harris is mistaken.

I do not expect that to ever happen, though. Granted, I lack direct experience of Muslim communities, let alone of them all. But I have looked for indirect evidence left and right and it is all just so disappointing. Besides, I do know for a fact that Brazil's Christianity does in fact shield extremism without even thinking much of it. Mainly, it seems, out of accommodation; it is a real headache to choose not to shield that extremism.
 
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