Ideology is Fantasy

[Audie]

Ideology is forced upon us. We are said to be given a "choice" and this "choice" is supposed to be proof that we are "free to choose" and is a perfect example of "democracy" at work. Then we are shown an red apple and then green apple and told these are our "choices". How is this "choice" or "freedom". It is just ritual and pure spectacle. Wizard of Oz crap. The political ideologies of the US are like this, we are given two or at most three "choices" as to what we are supposed to believe "left", "right" or "middle" and this is supposed to be "freedom"

Goodness, did you forget to eat your jello?

 

[The Reverend Bob]

What you are saying is you wish more people held ideologies you find preferable. You wish our illusions drove us in more positive directions

You were right in saying 'ideology is fantasy', just wrong to absolve yourself.

Self-preservation is non-ideological. It is sound and rational behavior. When I study human history, all our man made disasters, all our wars, the reason we have come to an impasse where it is impossible to get things done, all these things are rooted in certain things humanity hold dear. It isn't ideological to see these things, it is just observation.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

Goodness, did you forget to eat your jello?

I didn't order the jello today and the nurse told me I couldn't have any anyway because I refused to take my meds.

 

[Quintessence]

I admit that ideology arises out human need and desire. Like the need for comfort and/or security, the need to belong to something grander or bigger than oneself but that doesn't take away from the fact that all ideologies are subjective, that there is no inherent truth or falsehood in them. They are essentially religious in nature because people believe in them without requiring proof whether they can be true or false.

I think you're oversimplifying what it means for something to be true or false, and definitely oversimplifying what it means to be religious. Or put another way, your conceptions about what it means for something to be "true" or "false" seem to fall within a particular ideology that is itself a subjective response to your experiences. In my experience, ideologies speak to sacred truths that people deeply value. Whether or not they are "objectively true" is not the point and largely irrelevant. The proofs are people's experiences and the usefulness of the ideology in a given time period, culture, or region.

 

[Augustus]

Self-preservation is non-ideological. It is sound and rational behavior.

In the sense of avoiding a speeding car perhaps, in the sense you are proposing which involves cooperation on a global scale it certainly is.

You want other people to change their preferences and behaviours because believe this would be for your/the greater good. That is ideology.

When I study human history, all our man made disasters, all our wars, the reason we have come to an impasse where it is impossible to get things done, all these things are rooted in certain things humanity hold dear. It isn't ideological to see these things, it is just observation.

Most of them come from human nature. When you suggest humans should aim to transcend their nature, again, this is ideological.

Ideologies are just stories we tell ourselves to create meaning where none exists. The fundamental aspect of human cognition is the inability to make sense of the world without resorting to narratives, and is why we can never see the world 'just as it is'.

 

[Audie]

In the sense of avoiding a speeding car perhaps, in the sense you are proposing which involves cooperation on a global scale it certainly is.

You want other people to change their preferences and behaviours because believe this would be for your/the greater good. That is ideology.



Most of them come from human nature. When you suggest humans should aim to transcend their nature, again, this is ideological.

Ideologies are just stories we tell ourselves to create meaning where none exists. The fundamental aspect of human cognition is the inability to make sense of the world without resorting to narratives, and is why we can never see the world 'just as it is'.

It is no fantasy that the stories about achievement
thatvAsians and Jews tell themselves are self fulfilling.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

The fundamental aspect of human cognition is the inability to make sense of the world without resorting to narratives, and is why we can never see the world 'just as it is'.

And that might be a fatal flaw and an evolutionary dead end

 

[Audie]

And that might be a fatal flaw and an evolutionary dead end

How so?

 

[The Reverend Bob]

It is no fantasy that the stories about achievement
thatvAsians and Jews tell themselves are self fulfilling.

And the stories Christian tell themselves about Jesus is fulfilling to them. Might lack nutritional value but nevertheless they all google their stories up. What use is a personal story or a national narrative if because of it you are in danger of eating the trash can. I would rather put on the sun glasses, than eat that trash can.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

How so?

You means besides the political and religious divides and conflicts that adherence to ideology creates?

 

[Augustus]

And that might be a fatal flaw and an evolutionary dead end

It's certainly a dead end for your dreams of us seeing the world as it is

Well it's also our primary evolutionary advantage that enabled us to differentiate ourselves from the other apes, found civilisations, create modernity, etc. It did doom us to hubris and the propensity to think our species is collectively far smarter than we actually are.

Seeing the world as it really is would be a very fatal flaw as it would entail us rejecting all of our civilising myths in favour of whatever the 'reality' is for bags of sentient molecules fumbling around a purposeless universe doing things which don't matter in the slightest and will turn out to be completely futile in the long run.

 

[Augustus]

It is no fantasy that the stories about achievement
thatvAsians and Jews tell themselves are self fulfilling.

Yet they do rely on fictions that make certain types of achievement preferable to others.

 

[Audie]

You means besides the political and religious divides and conflicts that adherence to ideology creates?

No. I dont.

 

[Audie]

Yet they do rely on fictions that make certain types of achievement preferable to others.

And what fictions are those?

 

[The Reverend Bob]

No. I dont.

Because sometimes like the Prophetess Dear Abby told us, you have to stop living in a fantasy and you have to wake up and smell the coffee. You can put on the sunglasses or you can eat the trash can. I don't want to eat the trash can.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

And what fictions are those?

Have you ever seen The Jazz Singer?

 

[Nakosis]

Whether the ideology is political, cultural or religious/spiritual it is not something based on reality or on the here and now but on what people believe things should be or how things should be or are. Often ideology is used as a protective filter that saves us from seeing the vagaries of reality and give us the false comfort of an ordered universe. Even when ideologies accept the reality of the chaotic and unpredictable it is often looked at as something to be remedied or as something evil and sometimes as something to surrender to. Rather than putting on the glasses and seeing the world just as it is, we would rather eat the trash can because why not? We eat the trash everyday but in our ideological frame of mind we see the trash as filet mignon because the ubiquitous "they" "the authorities" and "the experts" tell us that it is filet mignon and "they know better than us" because after all "it is written...".

Let us take the ideology "democracy", a vague term that no one seems to be able to define precisely, people mention concepts like "freedom" (freedom from what?) or rights (often limited because too much "freedom" is a bad thing apparently) and "liberty". The ideology "democracy" like all other ideologies is nothing more than a baby's pacifier, given to you to suck on in order to keep you quiet when you want mother's milk but lacking in the nourishments you need. It is a promise to make you feel alright or give you meaning but that is all on the surface. You dine at the Cafe Ideology and you will find yourself munching on a Nothing Burger with a side of Word Salad while you await your turn to try the new and improved Bull**** Buffet.

My ideology is based on whatever makes me happy. If an idea makes me happy, go with it. If not, drop it.

Maybe the truth is important, I don't know. If it is not affecting my happiness, then probably not. Otherwise it is kind of hard for me to invest much into any specific ideology as it all seems a bit random. Most ideology seems hit and miss. Maybe that is your point. Kind of sort of works but no guarantees.

What makes me happy, pretty much tested over my life and found to be true.

Question I had though, without "ideology" what would you see in its place?

 

[Audie]

Because sometimes like the Prophetess Dear Abby told us, you have to stop living in a fantasy and you have to wake up and smell the coffee. You can put on the sunglasses or you can eat the trash can. I don't want to eat the trash can.

Ah, nowvI get it. You gotta stop n smell the roses, lest ye
jump offn that bridge before you burn it.

 

[Audie]

Have you ever seen The Jazz Singer?

Nope.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

Nope.

Ah, nowvI get it. You gotta stop n smell the roses, lest ye
jump offn that bridge before you burn it.

No, no, no! You have to smell the coffee before you can smell the roses. Because what if there are no roses because you didn't get your lazy *** up to water them because you didn't wake up to smell the coffee first? And how can you jump off the bridge if you didn't wake your lazy *** up to smell the coffee so you can go build the bridge? You always have to wake up and smell the coffee first. You either put on the sunglasses or you will eat the trash can. I do not want to eat the trash can. I don't understand why some prefer to eat the trash can. There is nothing good in the trash can.