Idolatry ("Shirk") vs excessive emphasis on Monotheism: the eye of the beholder

[Mohsen]

A very cool thread. so cool that I felt compelled to share this video I feel you guys (and gals) would find intriguing.

Such a polite conversation between a Jew and a Muslim !!!


Peace!

 

[Stormcry]

I think the whole point of Islamic monotheism is to revere God, not nature, not things composed of atoms that were created by God, not the stars or lightning or rain, or clouds, or moons,

So why do Muslims revere Black stone or is it composed of anti-matter?

 

[LuisDantas]

So why do Muslims revere Black stone or is it composed of anti-matter?

They claim that they do not.

Who can tell? Worship is such a deeply personal thing that it can be literally impossible to know what it means for other people.

 

[Stormcry]

Who can tell? Worship is such a deeply personal thing that it can be literally impossible to know what it means for other people

My comment was clearly in the context of empirical scientific perception, as he was talking about atoms, nature, lightning, clouds and so on.

I think we shouldn't be too considerate to the extent that we prefer to ignore the hypocrisy.

 

[LuisDantas]

It it hypocrisy? I guess it might be. I tend to assume that they are simply too conditioned to notice how unfounded their assumptions and accusations are.

 

[YmirGF]

An interesting thread @LuisDantas

I think you have hit on some rather telling points. I wholeheartedly agree that many people simply assume that Islam is very similar to Christianity without actually investigating either. That is likely because Muslim's tend to wax on about what a cool guy Jesus was and how a Muslim must believe in Jesus to be a Muslim. A lot of people just stop there and probably think, "Oh, Jesus too. Cool." What is odd is that the two religions may as well be talking about two completely different personalities.

Also, the misapprehensions Islam has about other faiths, core misunderstandings, does put so-called "interfaith dialogue" into question. How can meaningful discussion occur without basic understanding?

 

[PureX]

The downside of monotheism is that it promotes binary, and often extremist thinking by defining reality according to only two conceptual poles; the divine, and the human. Poles that then tend to stand in opposition to one another.

Religious Christianity is a kind of schizophrenic monotheism that also tends to suffer from this same binary excess.

But then they were both derived from the original mono-theological religion, Judaism.

 

[Muslim-UK]

A lot of people just stop there and probably think, "Oh, Jesus too. Cool." What is odd is that the two religions may as well be talking about two completely different personalities.

That's because early Christian and Jewish texts show there are 2 very different Jesus' being portrayed; one who has divine like abilities as found in some ambiguous verses of the NT and another very human Prophet, much like the Islamic narration found in texts banned from the Bible.

Also, the misapprehensions Islam has about other faiths, core misunderstandings, does put so-called "interfaith dialogue" into question. How can meaningful discussion occur without basic understanding?

You'd have to give an example for me to examine and respond.

 

[YmirGF]

That's because early Christian and Jewish texts show there are 2 very different Jesus' being portrayed; one who has divine like abilities as found in some ambiguous verses of the NT and another very human Prophet, much like the Islamic narration found in texts banned from the Bible.

I understand, but various texts were left out of the Bible for what, at the time, seemed like fairly solid reasons. Most were left out due to the unreliability of the texts. Any Muslim observer of the billions of hadiths should be able to readily understand these decisions.

You'd have to give an example for me to examine and respond.

One that has cropped up from time to time, of which I am particularly conversant, is the subject of meditation. Muslims seem to have a very poor grasp of meditation from either a Buddhist or Hindu perspective and have no real corresponding practice.

To a lesser extent, the Trinity, though I will readily agree that in a flock of Christians getting an intelligible answer out of them can be a bit unnerving, so, I'm willing to cut Muslims some slack there.

Also, there is the tendency to tar tens of millions of people for idolatry and/or being pagans, as if that was a bad thing, with only the skimpiest understanding of what is actually involved in their practices.

 

[Muslim-UK]

I understand, but various texts were left out of the Bible for what, at the time, seemed like fairly solid reasons. Most were left out due to the unreliability of the texts. Any Muslim observer of the billions of hadiths should be able to readily understand these decisions.

Scholars have long been telling us there is a clear and steady development of who Jesus pbuh was, going from Prophet in the Gospel of Mark to almost divine like being by the time we get to the last Gospel, John.

In Mark the story ends with a empty tomb, no resurrection narrative. He doesn't know who touched his robe Mark 5:30 and Luke 5:45, yet in the later Gospel of Matthew 9:22, he knows exactly who it is and addresses them directly. This and other instances shows clear development, and explains why a Jesus pbuh surviving attempts on his life would not fit the narrative, namely God becoming a man, dying and resurrecting as found in earlier Greek mythology.

One that has cropped up from time to time, of which I am particularly conversant, is the subject of meditation. Muslims seem to have a very poor grasp of meditation from either a Buddhist or Hindu perspective and have no real corresponding practice.

Breathing exercises to empty ones mind and be at internal peace is my limited understanding. I'm not sure how this draws criticism or leads to confusion from Muslims?

Also, there is the tendency to tar tens of millions of people for idolatry and/or being pagans, as if that was a bad thing, with only the skimpiest understanding of what is actually involved in their practices.

The God of Abraham pbuh makes it clear He is ONE. He alone created Time and Space as we know it and everything within it, including the known Universe. He alone is worthy of worship, and to Him alone will every single one of us return, and those that did not acknowledge and worship Him will be condemned unless His message did not reach them. Clearly Muslims are taught idolatry is unacceptable and thus a 'bad thing'. Perhaps you could explain why you think this is wrong, so we can add to the skimpy knowledge Islam has on the issue?

 

[Epic Beard Man]

A lot of reverence from the "black stone" has a lot to do with cultural fanatics. The Imams there probably encourage that but it is not religiously supported. It is cultural

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Regardless of your perception Muslims worship God......

In the words of the Holy Qur'an

Alhamdulilahi rabbll alamin

Not sure where the confusion is

 

[Tumah]

That's because early Christian and Jewish texts show there are 2 very different Jesus' being portrayed; one who has divine like abilities as found in some ambiguous verses of the NT and another very human Prophet, much like the Islamic narration found in texts banned from the Bible.

There are no Jewish texts about Jesus.

...at least not that put him in a positive light.

 

[Muslim-UK]

There are no Jewish texts about Jesus.

...at least not that put him in a positive light.

His brother James pbuh was a practising Jew who led a Community of believers and their letters and texts show, they regarded Jesus pbuh to be a Prophet of God, a Priestly Messiah.

 

[Tumah]

His brother James pbuh was a practising Jew who led a Community of believers and their letters and texts show, they regarded Jesus pbuh to be a Prophet of God, a Priestly Messiah.

I'll agree if you agree that Babism is an Islamic religion.

 

[Stormcry]

A lot of reverence from the "black stone" has a lot to do with cultural fanatics. The Imams there probably encourage that but it is not religiously supported. It is cultural

What about the whole structure of Kaaba? Why to circumambulate Kaaba? Why to revere things made up of matter?

 

[Epic Beard Man]

What about the whole structure of Kaaba? Why to circumambulate Kaaba? Why to revere things made up of matter?

The circumambulation to my knowledge extends from the tradition of Abraham. From my knowledge Abraham travelled to Mecca and built what is considered the Kaaba or "Beit'ullah" or House of God and Abraham was instructed by God to make that (Kaaba/Beit'ullah) a spiritual place for the believer to have that relationship with GOD. For example the following verse says:

"And (remember) when We showed Ibrahim the site of the (Sacred) House (the Kaaba at Makkah), saying: Ascribe not anything (in worship) with Me, and sanctify My House for those who circumambulate it, and those who stand up (for prayer), and those who bow (submit themselves with humility and obedience to Allah), and make prostration (in prayer). And proclaim to mankind the Hajj (pilgrimage). They will come to you on foot and on every lean camel, they will come from every deep and distant (wide) mountain highway (to perform Hajj)." (Al-Hajj, 22:26-27).

Muslims don't revere the bricks or the stones of the Kaaba, it is a tradition since Abraham, a spiritual center of sorts in remembrance of a tradition of Muslims who remember God. Muslims ascribe the circumambulation like the celestial bodies orbiting a great body but most certainly not revering it.