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If a tree falls and no one is around...

an anarchist

Your local loco.
If a tree falls and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound? I know it's an old question.

When I was 19 I read a book called Biocentrism. It asserts that it does not in fact make a sound absent of an observer.

Biocentrism says that consciousness and biological creatures are a key component in the existence of the universe, or something like that. It attempts to use quantum mechanics and the entanglement experiment to support the logic.

Here is an article written by the author where he talks about his theory.

‘Biocentrism’: How life creates the universe

Excerpt from the article.

Take the seemingly undeniable logic that your kitchen is always present, its contents assuming all their familiar shapes and colors whether or not you are in it. But consider: The shapes, colors, and forms known as your kitchen are seen as they are solely because photons of light from the overhead bulb bounce off the various objects and then interact with your brain through a complex set of retinal and neural intermediaries. But on its own, light doesn’t have any color, nor any brightness, nor any visual characteristics at all. It’s merely an electrical and magnetic phenomenon. So while you may think that the kitchen as you remember it was “there” in your absence, the unquestionable reality is that nothing remotely resembling what you can imagine could be present when a consciousness is not interacting.

Quantum physics comes to a similar conclusion. At night you click off the lights and leave for the bedroom. Of course the kitchen is there, unseen, all through the night. Right? But, in fact, the refrigerator, stove and everything else are composed of a shimmering swarm of matter/energy. The results of quantum physics, such as the two-slit experiment, tell us that not a single one of those subatomic particles actually occupies a definite place. Rather, they exist as a range of possibilities — as waves of probability — as the German physicist Max Born demonstrated back in 1926. They are statistical predictions — nothing but a likely outcome. In fact, outside of that idea, nothing is there! If they are not being observed, they cannot be thought of as having any real existence — either duration or a position in space. It is only in the presence of an observer — that is, when you go back in to get a drink of water — that the mind sets the scaffolding of these particles in place. Until it actually lays down the threads (somewhere in the haze of probabilities that represent the object’s range of possible values) they cannot be thought of as being either here or there, or having an actual position, a physical reality.

What are your guy's thoughts on the theory?
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Hearing is. Known studied a biological owned experience.

And as we live you cannot abstract your biological presence from the experience by inferring to irrational thought. Your owned non existence.

So you can think of a hearing biology that doesn't exist. What status would a fallen tree cause.

Vibration..shock wave not sound.

Reason a biological human who can't hear can feel the shock wave.

As a tree does fall you can't pretend what happens if a natural body falls to the ground hasn't fallen. As you chose the subject yourself.

As a thinker if I build artificial bodies and can hit one against the other. Rational says in law they never existed naturally. They cause a shock wave says the experience.

How you know that biology is a big con artist.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Yes the air pressure waves that we hear as sound are still created. The only time it won't make a sound is in vacuum.




Woo.
And it's not a scientific theory although it tries ny deception to be one.
Derrrr.

A human who cannot hear is a human who feels the pressure change. Not sound.

A human who hears doesn't hear pressure change just hears the tree hit making noise.

The tree wasn't making noise.
The ground wasn't making noise.

Shift mass pressure changes.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Derrrr.

A human who cannot hear is a human who feels the pressure change. Not sound.

A human who hears doesn't hear pressure change just hears the tree hit making noise.

The tree wasn't making noise.
The ground wasn't making noise.

Shift mass pressure changes.

Sound is air pressure waves detected by the ear drum.

As the tree falls (and lands) it branches and leaves move causing pressure (sound) waves, wood splits causing pressure (sound) waves, it strikes other objects causing pressure (sound) waves.

The tree is causing the movement in air and thus making the sound.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
If a tree falls and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound? I know it's an old question.

When I was 19 I read a book called Biocentrism. It asserts that it does not in fact make a sound absent of an observer.

Biocentrism says that consciousness and biological creatures are a key component in the existence of the universe, or something like that. It attempts to use quantum mechanics and the entanglement experiment to support the logic.

Here is an article written by the author where he talks about his theory.

‘Biocentrism’: How life creates the universe

Excerpt from the article.

Take the seemingly undeniable logic that your kitchen is always present, its contents assuming all their familiar shapes and colors whether or not you are in it. But consider: The shapes, colors, and forms known as your kitchen are seen as they are solely because photons of light from the overhead bulb bounce off the various objects and then interact with your brain through a complex set of retinal and neural intermediaries. But on its own, light doesn’t have any color, nor any brightness, nor any visual characteristics at all. It’s merely an electrical and magnetic phenomenon. So while you may think that the kitchen as you remember it was “there” in your absence, the unquestionable reality is that nothing remotely resembling what you can imagine could be present when a consciousness is not interacting.

Quantum physics comes to a similar conclusion. At night you click off the lights and leave for the bedroom. Of course the kitchen is there, unseen, all through the night. Right? But, in fact, the refrigerator, stove and everything else are composed of a shimmering swarm of matter/energy. The results of quantum physics, such as the two-slit experiment, tell us that not a single one of those subatomic particles actually occupies a definite place. Rather, they exist as a range of possibilities — as waves of probability — as the German physicist Max Born demonstrated back in 1926. They are statistical predictions — nothing but a likely outcome. In fact, outside of that idea, nothing is there! If they are not being observed, they cannot be thought of as having any real existence — either duration or a position in space. It is only in the presence of an observer — that is, when you go back in to get a drink of water — that the mind sets the scaffolding of these particles in place. Until it actually lays down the threads (somewhere in the haze of probabilities that represent the object’s range of possible values) they cannot be thought of as being either here or there, or having an actual position, a physical reality.

What are your guy's thoughts on the theory?
There seems to be a conflation of terms here. It is true that light of a certain wavelength does not intrinsically have a colour, because the term "colour" relates to the sensation created in the eye of the observer, rather than to anything intrinsic to light. But that is not to say that this light has no intrinsic properties in the absence of an observer, at least when it interacts.

The issue of "sound" with the tree in the forest is just a language problem because, unlike the situation with "colour" and "light", we use the term "sound" to denote both the sensation we perceive and the physical pressure wave in the air that our ears detect. So yes the tree makes a sound in the sense of the pressure wave, regardless of any observer.

Where this gets non-trivial, I suppose, is with quantum mechanics. According to the relational interpretation (Carlo Rovelli et al), QM entities can only be said to have properties when they interact with one another. In between interactions, the properties are undefined. Note, however, that interaction does not have to be with a conscious observer of any kind.

Note also that this does not mean these entities are not real in between interactions. I agree entirely with @Heyo that to do science one has to believe there is an objective reality out there, independent of observation, or at least such that whenever and by whomever it is ever observed, it behaves consistently. That, after all, is all we can ever mean by "reality" in the first place.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
It's unscientific. An axiom of science is that the universe is real. Any hypothesis denying that is not scientific.

Yeah, but real is no different than God. You can't observe either.
And the axiom has its limits for the everyday world for what is real in practice based on what other axioms you accept. Or if you use another axiom for science.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
There seems to be a conflation of terms here. It is true that light of a certain wavelength does not intrinsically have a colour, because the term "colour" relates to the sensation created in the eye of the observer, rather than to anything intrinsic to light. But that is not to say that this light has no intrinsic properties in the absence of an observer, at least when it interacts.

The issue of "sound" with the tree in the forest is just a language problem because, unlike the situation with "colour" and "light", we use the term "sound" to denote both the sensation we perceive and the physical pressure wave in the air that our ears detect. So yes the tree makes a sound in the sense of the pressure wave, regardless of any observer.

Where this gets non-trivial, I suppose, is with quantum mechanics. According to the relational interpretation (Carlo Rovelli et al), QM entities can only be said to have properties when they interact with one another. In between interactions, the properties are undefined. Note, however, that interaction does not have to be with a conscious observer of any kind.

Note also that this does not mean these entities are not real in between interactions. I agree entirely with @Heyo that to do science one has to believe there is an objective reality out there, independent of observation, or at least such that whenever and by whomever it is ever observed, it behaves consistently. That, after all, is all we can ever mean by "reality" in the first place.

Well, I don't use that axiom about objective reality, because I can't do this:
"But that is not to say that this light has no intrinsic properties in the absence of an observer, at least when it interacts."
How do you know that if you are needed to know that? In effect you are saying that you know something, that you don't know.

We are playing different philosophies of science and you are not a "we" and neither am I a "we".
In effect we are doing to 2 different base versions of philosophy:
"philosophy, (from Greek, by way of Latin, philosophia, “love of wisdom”) the rational, abstract, and methodical consideration of reality as a whole or of fundamental dimensions of human existence and experience. philosophy | Definition, Systems, Fields, Schools, & Biographies"

You: The whole is independent of the observer.
Me: That sentence requires an observer.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Things continue to do what they are doing and exist whether we observe them or not.
A clocks hands continue to move when we are out of the room. A camera will still work remotely on auto setting. Or as a camera trap without conscious intervention.
Biology, intelligence nor consciousness are needed.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Things continue to do what they are doing and exist whether we observe them or not.
A clocks hands continue to move when we are out of the room. A camera will still work remotely on auto setting. Or as a camera trap without conscious intervention.
Biology, intelligence nor consciousness are needed.

You couldn't say that unless you are a part of the world.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
If a tree falls and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound? I know it's an old question.

When I was 19 I read a book called Biocentrism. It asserts that it does not in fact make a sound absent of an observer.

Biocentrism says that consciousness and biological creatures are a key component in the existence of the universe, or something like that. It attempts to use quantum mechanics and the entanglement experiment to support the logic.

Here is an article written by the author where he talks about his theory.

‘Biocentrism’: How life creates the universe

Excerpt from the article.

Take the seemingly undeniable logic that your kitchen is always present, its contents assuming all their familiar shapes and colors whether or not you are in it. But consider: The shapes, colors, and forms known as your kitchen are seen as they are solely because photons of light from the overhead bulb bounce off the various objects and then interact with your brain through a complex set of retinal and neural intermediaries. But on its own, light doesn’t have any color, nor any brightness, nor any visual characteristics at all. It’s merely an electrical and magnetic phenomenon. So while you may think that the kitchen as you remember it was “there” in your absence, the unquestionable reality is that nothing remotely resembling what you can imagine could be present when a consciousness is not interacting.

Quantum physics comes to a similar conclusion. At night you click off the lights and leave for the bedroom. Of course the kitchen is there, unseen, all through the night. Right? But, in fact, the refrigerator, stove and everything else are composed of a shimmering swarm of matter/energy. The results of quantum physics, such as the two-slit experiment, tell us that not a single one of those subatomic particles actually occupies a definite place. Rather, they exist as a range of possibilities — as waves of probability — as the German physicist Max Born demonstrated back in 1926. They are statistical predictions — nothing but a likely outcome. In fact, outside of that idea, nothing is there! If they are not being observed, they cannot be thought of as having any real existence — either duration or a position in space. It is only in the presence of an observer — that is, when you go back in to get a drink of water — that the mind sets the scaffolding of these particles in place. Until it actually lays down the threads (somewhere in the haze of probabilities that represent the object’s range of possible values) they cannot be thought of as being either here or there, or having an actual position, a physical reality.

What are your guy's thoughts on the theory?
This depends entirely on whether or not you define sound as the product of what happens when waves in the air interact with an organ or apparatus capable of interpreting that information as sound, or if you define sound as waves in the air that are capable of BEING picked up by an organ or apparatus capable of interpreting that information as sound. The question becomes extremely easy if you just delineate the definition of sound into two separate categories along these lines.

For example, we could say that EXPLICIT SOUND is the interpretation of waves in the air in an organ or apparatus, and IMPLICIT SOUND is the waves in the air themselves.

So, if a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound?
The answer is it makes an IMPLICIT sound, but not an EXPLICIT sound.

Simple!
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
This depends entirely on whether or not you define sound as the product of what happens when waves in the air interact with an organ or apparatus capable of interpreting that information as sound, or if you define sound as waves in the air that are capable of BEING picked up by an organ or apparatus capable of interpreting that information as sound. The question becomes extremely easy if you just delineate the definition of sound into two separate categories along these lines.

For example, we could say that EXPLICIT SOUND is the interpretation of waves in the air in an organ or apparatus, and IMPLICIT SOUND is the waves in the air themselves.

So, if a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound?
The answer is it makes an IMPLICIT sound, but not an EXPLICIT sound.

Simple!

Both cases require an explicit human to make sense. If you can remove humans from being in the world as parts of the world, you would have a point, but nobody have being able to do that in the strong sense of that all of the world is independent of humans.

Indeed the sentence; "All of the world is independent of humans" requires a human.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Both cases require an explicit human to make sense. If you can remove humans from being in the world as parts of the world, you would have a point, but nobody have being able to do that in the strong sense of that all of the world is independent of humans.

Indeed the sentence; "All of the world is independent of humans" requires a human.
You could say that the waves (implicit sound) do not require a human to make sense.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
You could say that the waves (implicit sound) do not require a human to make sense.

But the notion of implicit requires a human, because you are saying this: To make sense doesn't require qa human. but to make sense requires a human, because making sense happens in a human.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
But the notion of implicit requires a human, because you are saying this: To make sense doesn't require qa human. but to make sense requires a human, because making sense happens in a human.
The Universe is capable of existing in spite of - or sometimes even in direct contradiction to - our ability to make sense of it.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
In the Universe, I assume.

All claims of the whole requires someone to make the claim. Start there and then explain how that works including humans, but not just humans.
Don't start by excluding humans, because to claim you can exclude humans contradicts that excluding requires a human.
 
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