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If a tree falls and no one is around...

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
How so?
When the experiment is conducted,
no human interacts with the animals.

You're still abusing by misusing the word.

Hey, when I don't see you posting,
do you cease to exist?


A human plans the experiment, acquires the equipment from other humans, arranges it in the woods, gathers the data, and interprets it. There is quite simply no way to separate the observer from the object being observed.

The me you interact with online, is a version you hold in your mind. I have no way of knowing what happens to that version of me when you are not interacting with it.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
A human plans the experiment...
To assume that nothing exists when we don't observe
it isn't disprovable....IOW, it's "nicht einmal falsch".
This isn't useful, unlike assuming that the laws of physics
apply even when we aren't observing. How is this useful?
If we observe a process, & then stop observing, when
we return to observing, we see that the process continued
during our absence, as predicted.
If you assumed that things disappear or stop when we
don't observe it, this has no explanatory power, ie, it's
not useful. It's more the realm of religion.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
A human plans the experiment, acquires the equipment from other humans, arranges it in the woods, gathers the data, and interprets it. There is quite simply no way to separate the observer from the object being observed.

The me you interact with online, is a version you hold in your mind. I have no way of knowing what happens to that version of me when you are not interacting with it.

And if it had been an ant that brought the things to a spot and perceived using chemical signals, it would be all about ants.

That the observer is human is irrelevant. That the observer is even conscious seems irrelevant. The universe interacts with other aspects of the universe. Our consciousness is one small aspect of that.

Information is produced, transmitted, and interacts with a receiver all the time independent of humans. The only way humans intervene is that we want to learn about how the universe works, so we set up special situations to test our ideas. But the universe does what it does whether or not we know about it.

The point is that you exist even if my image of you in my mind does not. The same is true of the tree and the sound it produces.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Well, that is *one* interpretation, but it is far from being the only use of this thought experiment.

It is also about how words can be ambiguous and to get answers we need to ask precise questions. The word 'sound' is ambiguous, having both a physical meaning and a perceptual meaning.


No. No pressure waves have been made in this thought experiment.

And, for me, no perception of sound is experienced either. Nor, for that matter, a visual perception of a tree.


Oh, I strongly disagree. The one in my imagination is imaginary (sort of the origin of the words). A real tree falling in a real forest is a very different thing.



No, the tree in front of you is NOT the same as the model of it in your mind. The model is an approximation (probably a poor one) of the real tree. Don't confuse the picture with the subject of picture.


But there is no real tree in front of me now, falling in any real wood. We are talking about an abstraction, a tree, or a number of trees, that only exist for the purpose of this experiment. Sure, we can ask the thought experiment to tell us something about semantics, if we are so inclined. But I would still suggest that it's primary purpose is to get us thinking about what separates, and what unifies, the worlds external and internal to ourselves.

We are a species, incidentally, which is increasingly alienated from the natural world, and this in my opinion makes these questions all the more relevant. Because the antithesis of the observation that we are always destined to experience the world indirectly, at one, two, or more degrees of separation, is the recognition that there are some experiences which are so immersive, so immediate, that we lose all self consciousness and transcend, for a moment, all the limitations that divide us from the world around us. Those rare moments when we are in the world, and the world is in us, such that we are not aware of any boundaries.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
To assume that nothing exists when we don't observe
it isn't disprovable....IOW, it's "nicht einmal falsch".
This isn't useful, unlike assuming that the laws of physics
apply even when we aren't observing. How is this useful?
If we observe a process, & then stop observing, when
we return to observing, we see that the process continued
during our absence, as predicted.
If you assumed that things disappear or stop when we
don't observe it, this has no explanatory power, ie, it's
not useful. It's more the realm of religion.


I'm not making any such assumptions.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
And if it had been an ant that brought the things to a spot and perceived using chemical signals, it would be all about ants.

That the observer is human is irrelevant. That the observer is even conscious seems irrelevant. The universe interacts with other aspects of the universe. Our consciousness is one small aspect of that.

Information is produced, transmitted, and interacts with a receiver all the time independent of humans. The only way humans intervene is that we want to learn about how the universe works, so we set up special situations to test our ideas. But the universe does what it does whether or not we know about it.

The point is that you exist even if my image of you in my mind does not. The same is true of the tree and the sound it produces.


I don't for one minute doubt the existence of a world independent of human perception. But the issue here lies in the part of your text I've highlighted in bold. We want to learn about the world, and we have no way of observing it neutrally, as it would be if we were not there observing it. And this conundrum would apply if we were highly evolved ants, or alien visitors from Proxima B.

That I exist independently of you, is ultimately an article of faith on your part btw.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't for one minute doubt the existence of a world independent of human perception. But the issue here lies in the part of your text I've highlighted in bold. We want to learn about the world, and we have no way of observing it neutrally, as it would be if we were not there observing it. And this conundrum would apply if we were highly evolved ants, or alien visitors from Proxima B.

And it is far more than that. Our senses are limited. We are subject to optical (and other types of) illusions. So we *know* that we do not get the 'full picture' and that some of what we do get is simply wrong.

That is one reason why we need input from skeptics. Having the perspective of those from another culture helps to work against all sorts of biases.

It is why we need to test specifically for when our ideas are wrong. Rather than looking for confirmation, which can easily lead us astray, we should look for when ideas fail. By pushing the boundaries and testing even in situations that seem obvious, we help to prevent the types of errors in thinking we know humans are prone to.


That I exist independently of you, is ultimately an article of faith on your part btw.

But that you can surprise me with your responses makes it far less likely that you are a figment of my imagination.

No knowledge is certain, but some inspires much more confidence than others. The point of testing is not to know with 100%, but rather to increase confidence.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
But there is no real tree in front of me now, falling in any real wood. We are talking about an abstraction, a tree, or a number of trees, that only exist for the purpose of this experiment. Sure, we can ask the thought experiment to tell us something about semantics, if we are so inclined. But I would still suggest that it's primary purpose is to get us thinking about what separates, and what unifies, the worlds external and internal to ourselves.

Interesting. That has *never* been the focus of that thought experiment in my mind.

We are a species, incidentally, which is increasingly alienated from the natural world, and this in my opinion makes these questions all the more relevant. Because the antithesis of the observation that we are always destined to experience the world indirectly, at one, two, or more degrees of separation, is the recognition that there are some experiences which are so immersive, so immediate, that we lose all self consciousness and transcend, for a moment, all the limitations that divide us from the world around us. Those rare moments when we are in the world, and the world is in us, such that we are not aware of any boundaries.

I agree. But the fact that the experiences feel immersive does not mean they are true. We still experience the world separated by our senses and the processing our brains do to the sensory information.

That we feel like we have transcended does not imply that we actually have. Sometimes we just exchange one set of illusions for another.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
But there is no real tree in front of me now, falling in any real wood. We are talking about an abstraction, a tree, or a number of trees, that only exist for the purpose of this experiment.
OK. But we are asking *if* a real tree falls in a real forest with nobody around, does it make a sound?

The point is that the question is ambiguous: the word 'sound' refers to both the physical phenomenon of pressure waves in the air and the psychological phenomenon of our perception induced by said waves.

This ambiguity means the answer is yes for one interpretation and no for the other.

Sure, we can ask the thought experiment to tell us something about semantics, if we are so inclined. But I would still suggest that it's primary purpose is to get us thinking about what separates, and what unifies, the worlds external and internal to ourselves.
So, our senses and how we process their information?

Our 'internal' worlds are the result of our physical beings, which are in the 'external' world. I fail to see anything particularly deep here.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I know, reality sucks. But why do people hate reality sooo much that they deny it?

The problem is that stating "the universe is real" doesn't say much. In particular, with respect to biocentrism or other (sometimes even mainstream) views like that espoused by Lanza and Berman, one can say that there is an external reality independent of us while also claiming that what we perceive depends upon both our own perceptual and cognitive faculties as well as an intersubjective participatory "creative" component.
In short, that one can assert (and many have) that "the universe is real" and also that "our reality is inherently subjective".

In my personal experience, those that tend towards antirealist views are all physicists (not because such views are mainstream here as opposed to elsewhere, but a selection bias resulting from the fact that I don't interact often with e.g., geologists or paleoclimatologists). Most of the time, the antirealism here is due to an adherence of the so-called orthodox interpretation of QM, with the antirealist-type baggage of the Copenhagen interpretation(s). In other words, it's because the most used textbooks and courses still teach a simplified version of QM with a built-in, implicit interpretation that is taught as if it were known. Most of those with this view do not, I think, actually believe that "there is no quantum world" despite having heard this quoate (which Bohr is supposed to have said).
More serious are those in quantum foundations, where we find two camps taking explicit, deliberate stances on this matter. One the one hand, there are those whose acceptance of the many-worlds interpretation, Bohmian mechanics, and similar realist, ontological interpretations of quantum systems is due to a desire to explicitly reject the received antirealist tradition in QM and to eschew any adherence even to the formulation of QM (or at least its nomenclature and structure) that smacks of antirealist perspectives.
On the other hand, there are those whose view ranges all over the place yet has in common that quantum theory tells us clearly the world we experience cannot be made up of systems that are independent of observers. As Mermin put it (in)famously, "We now know that the moon is demonstrably not there when nobody looks" (he repeated this sentiment in another popular science article shortly after: Is the moon there when nobody looks?)

I've been meaning to write a post on this sort of idea, because most of the popular versions of how QM suggests that reality is determined by the observer are overly sensational and fail to adequately explain what kind of empirical and theoretical evidence could possibly support this sort of view.
So we have, for example, the Veiled Realilty of d'Espagnat, the agent-centric informational probability interpretation of the QBists, the more general information-theoretic interpretations, the pragmatists view, the modal view, the somewhat more traditional updated orthodox/Copenhagen view, the operationalist approach, the various relativists (including but not limited to Rovelli's Relational Quantum Mechanics), etc.
All these views involve accepting the idea that our most fundamental physical theories tell us that physical reality is in some sense observer dependent in a manner is more radical than the Kantian-type (in which we experience an observer-dependent reality of an external reality that is not shaped by our observations and experiences). Wheeler's participatory universe is not so much radical in and of itself as it is radical in both the name and the central thought experiments he used to elucidate this take (so to with his famous "it from bit"). Wheeler devised a now famous version of the two-slit experiment that involved light from distant galaxies, a quasar, and gravitational lensing. That's the basis for Delayed-choice experiments, in which it is supposedly shown that our decisions on what we decide to observe determine the nature of the phenomena and properties of systems (the simplistic way of stating this is something like "if we take the double slit experiment, and change the design, instead of just finding that we can either choose to learn which path an electron or photon or whatever takes OR choose to observe the interference pattern, we can choose to reveal EITHER characteristic of such systems AFTER it is supposed to have or have not traversed a particular path").
At the heart of the matter is the fact that QM was developed out of and based upon the phase space of classical mechanics. It is much more elegant and convenient when, in dealing with larger systems of any appreciable degree, to encode the information about the system not in terms of the actual position and momentum of the individual classical particles making it up, but a generalized coordinate system in which we care only about the degrees of freedom of the system.
The problem stems from the fact that, in the case of classical phase space, there is at least in principle a way to go back and forth between the phase space description and the classical Newtonian description, i.e., the abstract description and the one with a 1-1 correspondence between the "bodies" that make up the system (each with a definite position and momentum in "real" 3D space).
This isn't the case for QM. For both experimentalists and theorists, most of the work in QM concerns finding the right Hamiltonian for a given system. This means determining what the degrees of freedom of the system consist of and how best to encode them in the formalism.
That's not a classical question. It's not a classical question because in classical physics we start with the knowledge/assumption that the parts of the system we are interested have definite values at all time and we don't need to keep track of how we "prepare" the system to specify its state. In QM, all we have access to is a preparation procedure that we then end up calling the "state" of the system. So the question becomes how are we supposed to understand a particular encoding of degrees of freedom in terms of physical reality?
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
One is the experience of sound, the other is the physical makeup of sound.
But in that case, isn't one a reaction to sound, but that is not the definition of what sound is.

That is no different than to say that water is not just water because some people find it fun playing around in it, while others don't and therefore water can be different things. That doesn't make a lot of sense when talking about a definition of what something is.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
OK. But we are asking *if* a real tree falls in a real forest with nobody around, does it make a sound?

The point is that the question is ambiguous: the word 'sound' refers to both the physical phenomenon of pressure waves in the air and the psychological phenomenon of our perception induced by said waves.

This ambiguity means the answer is yes for one interpretation and no for the other.


So, our senses and how we process their information?

Our 'internal' worlds are the result of our physical beings, which are in the 'external' world. I fail to see anything particularly deep here.


Are you familiar with the position Christopher Fuchs has labelled Participatory Realism? Whereby objective reality is a collaborative enterprise, the 'emerging totality of what different observers experience'?*

*Sean Carroll

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1601.04360.pdf

Only one equation in this paper, so accessible to interested non physicists like me. It seems some theoretical physicists are actively trying to engage a wider audience in discussing the philosophical implications of their discoveries. Amen to that, I say.
 
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RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
And it is far more than that. Our senses are limited. We are subject to optical (and other types of) illusions. So we *know* that we do not get the 'full picture' and that some of what we do get is simply wrong.

That is one reason why we need input from skeptics. Having the perspective of those from another culture helps to work against all sorts of biases.

It is why we need to test specifically for when our ideas are wrong. Rather than looking for confirmation, which can easily lead us astray, we should look for when ideas fail. By pushing the boundaries and testing even in situations that seem obvious, we help to prevent the types of errors in thinking we know humans are prone to.




But that you can surprise me with your responses makes it far less likely that you are a figment of my imagination.

No knowledge is certain, but some inspires much more confidence than others. The point of testing is not to know with 100%, but rather to increase confidence.


Input from other cultures, views, perspectives, disciplines etc is always productive imo., in any field of human enquiry. That's why artists are so valuable; we are gifted the opportunity occasionally, to view the world as Cezanne saw it, or as Andy Warhol did. And to hear it's hidden rhythms and melodies as Tchaikovsky heard them, or Miles Davis.

This business of understanding the world is a collective endeavour, and no model or method of furthering our understanding should be dismissed out of hand, just because it's principles may conflict with the way we have learned or been trained to proceed. But of course, healthy scepticism is a valuable tool, a source of light to direct at our subject, though not the only light. Hence intuition, inspiration, and even revelation have their place alongside logic and reason.
 
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