If Apple makes a backdoor, iPhones WILL be hacked

[icehorse]

Does anyone still think it's a good idea for Apple to create a "backdoor"?

Late edit: So this thread is meant to focus on the geek / programmer perspective of this situation, not the legal perspective.

 

[Laika]

This thread may help.

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/apple-vs-the-government.185046/

 

[icehorse]

Thanks, I saw that thread. I thought this perspective was distinct from that discussion. But maybe not.

 

[HonestJoe]

What makes you so certain it will be "hacked". Apple would retain the technology to access the phone and you'd expect them to secure it along with all the other materials they have relevant to security of their devices. Anyone with ulterior motives who could get access to whatever Apple would have to create to break in to this phone would already have access to information that would probably provide much easier ways to "hack" Apple products.

The concern Apple is raising is that if they agree in this case, the authorities would start to ask for similar access in other cases, knowing that the ability to access locked phones now existed. I think Apple is worried about getting caught up in all sort of highly publicised legal and political cases so they want to drawn a line now.

 

[icehorse]

Software backdoors are created by programmers. Good programmers for sure, but still programmers. Hackers are also good (or great programmers). If one programmer creates a backdoor, another programmer can hack that backdoor.

As far as the legal precedent argument goes, there is another thread already discussing that. I was hoping to focus this thread purely on the geek perspective. Sorry, I should have tried to make that more clear.

 

[Mister Emu]

Anyone with ulterior motives who could get access to whatever Apple would have to create to break in to this phone would already have access to information that would probably provide much easier ways to "hack" Apple products.

Sufficient encryption is practically impossible to break with current technology. The creation of a backdoor by Apple would mean that interested parties now have a company provided vulnerability to attack.

 

[HonestJoe]

Sufficient encryption is practically impossible to break with current technology. The creation of a backdoor by Apple would mean that interested parties now have a company provided vulnerability to attack.

The request isn't about breaking any encryption, it's about removing the limited number of false passcodes before the data is wiped so the phone can be accessed using brute force techniques.

Theoretically, anyone with the relevant technical skills could try to do that but obviously Apple is obviously best placed since they'll have a better understanding of the relevant code. If Apple did do it in this case, that wouldn't make it any easier for anyone else to do the same in the future, it would only make it easier for Apple to do it in the future.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Apple would be smart to do it, because that would put them ahead of those who are already "picking the lock." There is no such thing as a secure system (only more secure), and Apple making this "backdoor" themselves can potentially reveal other security issues and exploitable entry points.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Sufficient encryption is practically impossible to break with current technology.

The thing is, that can, and will, eventually change in a second. People seem to think computers can be totally safe, and they aren't. Every system has holes just waiting to be found. It may be difficult to let yourself in, but it is never truly impossible.

 

[icehorse]

Apple would be smart to do it, because that would put them ahead of those who are already "picking the lock." There is no such thing as a secure system (only more secure), and Apple making this "backdoor" themselves can potentially reveal other security issues and exploitable entry points.

Agreed that computer systems are never totally secure. But the rest of what you're saying seems technically inaccurate.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Agreed that computer systems are never totally secure. But the rest of what you're saying seems technically inaccurate.

That they can find multiple exploits by looking for them for them?

 

[icehorse]

Apple already has some of the best security in the biz. The feds are asking them to weaken it. This will negatively impact ALL iPhone users.

 

[HonestJoe]

Software backdoors are created by programmers. Good programmers for sure, but still programmers. Hackers are also good (or great programmers). If one programmer creates a backdoor, another programmer can hack that backdoor.

You seem to be flinging around popular terminology without understanding what it means. The proposal is not to create a “back-door”, it is not to do anything that would directly impact any phone other than the single one the FBI has. There are legitimate concerns but they’re not the ones you’re imagining.

 

[Mister Emu]

The thing is, that can, and will, eventually change in a second.

Yes, with the introduction of quantum computing. Which may never happen. Which will lead to quantum encryption and we're back. Any increase in technology that can be used to crack modern encryption will be just as effective in creating encryption that the same technology will be practically unable to break through.

People seem to think computers can be totally safe, and they aren't. Every system has holes just waiting to be found. It may be difficult to let yourself in, but it is never truly impossible.

That is why I qualified practically. If the people trying to get in would die of natural causes before breaking through, they won't even try. They'll go after you for your password.

If Apple did do it in this case, that wouldn't make it any easier for anyone else to do the same in the future, it would only make it easier for Apple to do it in the future.

You were correct, it is not a backdoor. It is a neutered OS that bypasses security features.

As long as it doesn't leak out of Apple. Which if it exists is infinitely more possible than if they hadn't developed it.

As a technical note, I find it interesting that this vulnerability is far more effective in traditional investigations than in counter terrorism. Even if they win their case and get this crippled OS developed, the expected time to get information would be ~2 years. In 2 years anyone tied to the phone can be gone or have already acted. However in a criminal investigation you can come back 2 years after the crime and arrest someone.

 

[icehorse]

You guys seem to think that this won't establish a legal precedent.

 

[HonestJoe]

As long as it doesn't leak out of Apple. Which if it exists is infinitely more possible than if they hadn't developed it.

If Apple isn’t already sitting on hardware or software that can do this (say as part of their development or testing tools), they certainly hold the information and tools to most easily develop it. A leak of that would already pose almost as significant a security risk.

The key point is that nobody at Apple (or otherwise informed commentators) are rising general security as an issue. Their only stated concern is governmental overreach.

 

[HonestJoe]

You guys seem to think that this won't establish a legal precedent.

I thought you wanted a technical discussion rather than a legal one.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You guys seem to think that this won't establish a legal precedent.

We're talking about someone who is guilty of murder and who has connections with a group that wants to see us dead and destroy our way of life. It's not a generalized sweeping surveillance like the Patriot Act. He is an enemy, he has information, it is needed.

Yes, with the introduction of quantum computing. Which may never happen. Which will lead to quantum encryption and we're back. Any increase in technology that can be used to crack modern encryption will be just as effective in creating encryption that the same technology will be practically unable to break through.

Just trust me. I used to be a hacker. There is no such thing as a full-proof system. And from what I'm finding, there are already a number of exploits and hacks that have been found. It's just a fact that our government isn't exactly tech savy. They may be able to target the head of an ant with a bomb, but when it comes to computers and cyber security they suck. Anyone who says the phone will never be hacked is simply living in a fantasy, because within a decade it will be simple and easy to do, especially since the iPhone is so popular.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If Apple isn’t already sitting on hardware or software that can do this (say as part of their development or testing tools), they certainly hold the information and tools to most easily develop it. A leak of that would already pose almost as significant a security risk.

Not necessarily because once they get it, they can close it up and adjust it. Sure, it would take time and money, but it's very possible they find other ways to exploit the OS while they are doing it, which would only further enhance security.

 

[icehorse]

Shadow Wolf - I think I hear you to say: "iPhone hacking is inevitable, this individual case is so important that it's okay if it hastens such hacking"

Is that correct?