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If atheism is a 'lack of a position', then it can't be the default position

Acim

Revelation all the time
In this case, I think your statement ("we do") is false, and I would bet good money that you don't object when labels like "civilian" are applied to babies (e.g. "there were 10 civilian casualties in the air strike, including 2 infants").

You went with "ridiculous objections" and then conveyed the ideas of "non-smoker" and "vegetarian" along with civilian. I first tuned into the non-smoker idea and realized we really do put up ridiculous objections to that. I could explain that one easy, but I surely see ridiculousness around that. Then I thought of all the nuances for vegetarian and while I don't encounter that much (being a non-vegetarian), I still see some ridiculousness there. So, I responded, "uh, yeah we do."

In my experience, it is rather challenging to come up with a word that all agree on how it applies, even if you are coming from the dictionary when discussing that word. And that includes off-line discussions.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
And again, there is no third position. Belief is either held or not held.

It's interesting to say beliefs are held. Given that they in a word mean "acceptance." So it would mean you 'hold acceptance.'

Then there's the idea that if you are paying no attention to a particular belief, is it in that moment held? With regards to theism/atheism, I think it permeates worldview that much for it to be in play much of the time. But hard to conclude all the time. And thus when not held, or currently consciously aware of what you accept, what is that position?
 

buddhist

Well-Known Member
Even if one were to accept that premise(which I do not, but no matter...), You would have on one hand the people that have chosen to believe(theists) and everybody else(atheists).

This isn't a difficult concept.
No, I perceive theists on one hand (people who choose to believe), and a-theists on the other hand (people who choose to not believe); the third hand would be those who neither believe nor don't believe (people who do not choose at all).
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
I wonder. Isn't it instead (or better) defined in terms of theism?

Edited to add: on second thought, that is definitely the case. Not only that, but "god" itself is a concept better understood by deriving it from theism instead of the other way around. Theism is known to exist, has fairly clear properties and can be observed and studied. God, in truth, has neither of those defining attributes.

I would say the highlighted part is plausible for an atheist, but not (necessarily) for a theist. Kind of true for other mental constructs, but god(s) being the sort of all encompassing aspect(s) they are, it is or can be unlike other mental constructs.

To me, it's a bit like science, in how much science is all encompassing (of the material world), while science itself is not all that clear in properties and is really only observed and studied by philosophy of science. Even then, there is much (to) debate, of so called fundamentals. Like deduction is fundamental (I think) to scientific practice/research, yet that idea isn't found in "the" method. The word "deduction" either never appears when "scientific method" is brought up (as property of science) or is rarely. Yet, how deduction works, for science, is a matter of ongoing debate and discussion. Either way, deduction is not (readily) observed/observable.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
I Disagree, as an agnostic, you need to know the concept of God.
As an atheist, there is none.
I Have no concept of God..

I believe I've seen you express a concept of God, and what the Entity must be, for you to be convinced otherwise.
Which I see as begging the question of 'lack of belief.'

If I say money is my god, because I allow it to guide many to most of my decisions, it has what I see as power/influence over human affairs, and I appreciate it so much, I am figuratively worshipful of its existence. I am still learning about it, want more, and seemingly can't get enough.

And if you come along and say anything in vein of "no that's not God" that would indicate that you have a concept of god(s) that works for you, and that whatever my concept is, you think is erroneous. You may lack acceptance of money as (your) god, but would not really be accurate to say that there is no evidence of any god, when money has, I think, plenty of evidence for it. So, it then comes back to what concept of god(s) are you going with, i.e. entity that is beyond natural existence and (somehow, magically) has influence within natural existence.

In anyway, The certain thing is that the definition of God is something made by Human mind and is not something that you are born with.
Unlike our 5 senses, you don't need to "learn" how to see...
You don't need to "learn" what taste is.

With spiritual sight, and spiritual discernment along with healthy dose of genuine honesty, you don't need to "learn" to use them. They are always present. With a whole lot of brainwashing in another direction, whereby you think seeing occurs with physical eyes, then you may need to unlearn that nonsense, so that you can participate in actual Seeing.
 

McBell

Unbound
So you say. You have not presented any reasoning for those statements. I have discussed things with atheists , as well, irl, I'm very familiar with it
Then why are you intentionally misrepresenting it?
I mean, you claim you know it so well that your misrepresentations have to be intentional, right?
 

McBell

Unbound
No, I perceive theists on one hand (people who choose to believe), and a-theists on the other hand (people who choose to not believe); the third hand would be those who neither believe nor don't believe (people who do not choose at all).
So you divide the non-beliefers into two subgroups.
That does not create a third group like you claim.
It merely further categorizes one of the groups.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
With all that in mind, we can consider a “default” position. A new-born baby will from the moment of birth (actually a little before) begin to have the experiences of the world around them and will develop conscious and subconscious beliefs and understandings (however simplistic they will be). We don’t actually know precisely how babies think but I think it’s fair to conclude that they don’t start out with any belief in any defined theological beings. In that context, they can be described as atheist and give this is the starting point for all human beings, that can be seen as the default.

I had earlier post that brought up some/most of what I'm conveying here, but seeing as that wasn't touched, and we're on open forum, I'm glad to repeat what I said earlier. Some of it will be stuff I didn't say.

I do find it interesting when we talk about them babies, and reference it as a they group. When everyone reading this was in that group (without exception). But I think we've come to understand that no one (or very very very few) remember what it was like exactly to be them. So, we go with a whole lot of projection.

I think it all begins at conception. What it is exactly like from conception to birth, is agreed upon (I think) that no one knows/remembers. We can study it (life of a fetus) from the outside in, and make some interesting conclusions, none of which deal with beliefs of the fetus. But observably, a fetus is entirely dependent on what for a fetus would be a superhuman being for their existence (as a human), which has power/great influence over their physical being. Thus the second definition of god(s) from our dictionary comes into play. Whether a fetus is aware of that in words/concepts (as words) is not known, but I think most of us think not. Yet, aware of it as experience and is all that is being experienced, is also not known, but I find it not possible to get on board with idea that they are incapable of awareness, or even incapable of beliefs (when belief means accepting something exists).

Then there's birth onward, and we're really talking about a few days to a few weeks where the alleged lack is occurring. Yet, while that alleged lack is occurring, it is plausible (I would say likely in overwhelming majority of cases) that parents are de facto gods to the newborn. Nearly same ideas as a fetus apply to new born. Acceptance of something exists is growing in awareness (of newborns). From newborn perspective, it would be plausible that all that comes into contact with them are superhuman, even including fellow babies, but that would be a tougher road to be convincing of, as baby is growing in acceptance of 'equality' with that in play. Yet, if fellow baby is able to walk, and own self is not, then wow, that is superhuman.

But all of this is filtered through what it is, if anything, the baby is receiving, both in actuality and in conceptual understanding. So baby might desire food, but chances are very good they have no verbal conception of food, don't understand all the countless things adults are doing with food (every single day) and yet, here baby is seemingly desiring that. While adults are operating under premise of if baby don't eat, baby die. So, these superhuman beings around the baby are providing literally everything for the baby to survive.

Other than existence. Which is where the discussion gets either super duper obvious in what's being discussed or is esoteric. Yet, if baby is aware of existence itself and accepting of self as existing (even if not able to verbally explain that acceptance), then from certain theistic perspectives, they are experiencing fundamental nature of God(s). Cause there is currently no superhuman entity or even physical nature itself that is known to be responsible for existence. That's 'the given,' the 'well of course that's occurring.' Yet, that's the place where at least some theists start, and go from there in considering 'Nature of God.' A non-theist type will leave off the 'of God' part and go from there. But unless one is not paying close attention, one might not realize just how much everyone/anyone is deifying, providing (conceptual understanding) supreme influence to existence itself.

And from that theistic perspective, it is challenging to understand that a baby is not experiencing Nature of God, for the moment awareness of self occurs (even if not discernible to other beings outside), then baby is accepting of something that exists, namely own Self.
 

meghanwaterlillies

Well-Known Member
Atheism is often described as the ''default position''. There's a problem with this. If atheism is the ''default position'', then it is a position, from which a person would become a theist.

Atheism can't be both the ''default position'', and a ''non-position'' ,// or 'lack of belief'. If atheism were actually a 'lack of belief', per definition, then it is a non-position, not the ''default position''
Sometimes I would say they are worried about something or pretend to be ignorant of it sometimes there is a legitimate reasons yet they treat everyone else with darwinian principles, my favorite f you back. LOL
 
No, I perceive theists on one hand (people who choose to believe), and a-theists on the other hand (people who choose to not believe); the third hand would be those who neither believe nor don't believe (people who do not choose at all).
Then the problem seems to be that you don't understand what atheism means. Let me educate you. An atheist is one that does not believe in a deity. It doesn't matter why;that's just what the word means.Some atheists actively believe that no gods exist or are possible, while others admit gods might exist, yet are simply unconvinced that they do.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
Yeah, sure. Thanks for the reading the whole thing.
I'm leaving room in that sentence for things like you've described.

Very early in development, babies become aware of and respond to stimuli, both inside and outside of the womb. That's the beginning of cognition and each of those moments are part of the healthy baby's mental development. Those moments create consistent and logical patterns that the child will begin to expect and trust, which creates an environment where the capacity for belief can prosper. So, for example, the developing child can begin to believe that the sensations that it experiences are actually happening. Even before birth, babies in utero will develop sleep and behavior patterns that coincide with their mother's day cycles. This is one of the reasons why great changes to a mother's diet or physical habits during pregnancy are discouraged. And why consistent rearing practices after birth are encouraged. Those little minds must be nurtured and cared for in consistent ways. It is in stability that growth and development happen best.

I have no problem in stating that babies believe their body's desires and responses to things exist. I have no problem claiming that they believe that their cries will be answered. I have no qualms about agreeing that babies believe contact with human skin equates to safety and protection. I'm OK with that. I will not agree, however, that they are somehow magically capable of higher thought. I'm not sure that you're making that claim at all, but some people have attempted to claim that before so I'm just hedging my bets here.

Thing is, you're calling it higher thought. What you are describing itself could be considered higher thought. The idea that 'if I cry, I will be answered in a way that matches my desire.' That's some magical (higher) thinking going on there. Granted, baby isn't probably verbalizing to their own self words, like we possibly do when we sit back and contemplate on a subject. Yet, when we mediate on (anything), it can, rather easily, be coming to certain insights that may later be put into words, yet which during the experience may have not involved any words or concepts as words when they came to us (or from us).

Then there's the idea that babies are (observably) experiencing de facto gods (parents/caregivers) as what essentially the entirety of their experience entails (as babies).

It's not just in how they express themselves - they factually do not possess the capacity or ability to do certain things until their minds develop further. To claim otherwise is to be ignorant of child development and cognitive ability. There are thoughts, for example, that even a 6 year old is simply not capable of, not matter how advanced their education or rearing systems are. The reason that there are no gymnast infants, or driving infants, is the same reason that there are no infant scholars, or authors...

Again, I see you assuming that God(s) is (or are) higher thought(s). That's disputable. If thought to own self, that's still expression or conception via words. In a mystical type experience, that stuff is either not occurring or is taking backseat to experience (without need to express it, to own self).

There is plenty of spiritual messaging that advocates to become childlike. While that can have nefarious implications that I dunno, amount to become naive so we can mold you and manipulate you like a pawn, it also has what I see as self evident rationale at work, which is get away from your so called "educated view on how life works" and accept yourself at very basic level, where words you are familiar with (or use daily, currently) do not grasp Who You Are.

I keep wanting to interject mystical experiences I've had that I think may better explain all this, but instead I go with the intellectual appeal. I honestly believe (all) people have plenty of own mystical experiences, but perhaps write it off as unimportant and treat worldly affairs as 'what life today is really about for them' regardless of how mundane and uneventful that worldly life actually is.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
the third hand would be those who neither believe nor don't believe (people who do not choose at all).
No such thing. Anyone who does not believe, well, does not believe.

To the extent that belief is a choice, those who do not choose do not believe.
 

buddhist

Well-Known Member
Then the problem seems to be that you don't understand what atheism means. Let me educate you. An atheist is one that does not believe in a deity. It doesn't matter why;that's just what the word means.Some atheists actively believe that no gods exist or are possible, while others admit gods might exist, yet are simply unconvinced that they do.
Yes, and these atheists made a choice for their position.
 

buddhist

Well-Known Member
No such thing. Anyone who does not believe, well, does not believe.

To the extent that belief is a choice, those who do not choose do not believe.
I differentiate between choosing not to believe (an active decision), and not choosing at all (absence of choice or a "don't care" position).
 
Yes, and these atheists made a choice for their position.

Not all of them. People that have never been exposed to the idea of deities still don't believe in deities, and are by definition a(not)theists(one who believes in the existence of deities)

So for your case to have any merit at all you would need to both redefine what atheism means(maybe publish your own dictionary and hope it sticks?), as well as show that belief is a choice(a premise that runs directly contrary to everything we currently know about epistemology).

I will start holding my breath for that to happen straight away.
 

buddhist

Well-Known Member
Neither one ends with belief, so both are accurately described as "don't believe."
I disagree.

One might (actively) say "I am convinced that I do not believe that 1+1=3".
Another might (passively) say "I don't care, e.g. I do not believe, nor do I believe, that 1+1=3; it is not in my realm of concern".
 

buddhist

Well-Known Member
Not all of them. People that have never been exposed to the idea of deities still don't believe in deities, and are by definition a(not)theists(one who believes in the existence of deities)

So for your case to have any merit at all you would need to both redefine what atheism means(maybe publish your own dictionary and hope it sticks?), as well as show that belief is a choice(a premise that runs directly contrary to everything we currently know about epistemology).

I will start holding my breath for that to happen straight away.
If you prefer, I differentiate between two types of atheists then.
 

McBell

Unbound
I disagree.

One might (actively) say "I am convinced that I do not believe that 1+1=3".
Another might (passively) say "I don't care, e.g. I do not believe, nor do I believe, that 1+1=3; it is not in my realm of concern".
and yet still neither one believes....
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
Then the problem seems to be that you don't understand what atheism means. Let me educate you. An atheist is one that does not believe in a deity. It doesn't matter why;that's just what the word means.Some atheists actively believe that no gods exist or are possible, while others admit gods might exist, yet are simply unconvinced that they do.

And yet seemingly it matters (to atheists) why theists believe. Gotta have those debates, to understand why theists accept what they accept, and be sure to point out anything that appears to the atheist as irrational.

If I say I don't believe in: kaka-djidijdi
And you say what is "kaka-djidijdi?" And I say, I dunno, I don't believe in it. I don't have to explain myself.

Might you still wonder what it is I'm claiming I don't believe in, and that I gave symbolic existence to? If I said everyone on my block believes in "kaka-djidijdi" and I've discussed it with them enough to realize I don't believe it exists, doesn't that, at least a little bit, beg the question of what I believe about "kaka-djidijdi" and what I've heard about it, and how I understand it?
 
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