If atheism is a 'lack of a position', then it can't be the default position

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Then I disagree with your definition of "atheism".

Welcome to the discussion that the rest of us have been having.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I disagree. I am consistent with this definition of the word "atheism": a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity (source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atheism)

"disbelief" means the act of disbelieving : mental rejection of something as untrue (source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/disbelief)

Expanded, "atheism" therefore means "an action of mental rejection in the existence of deity". Whereas my third position involves no action nor mental rejection.

"Mental rejection in the existence of deity"... as in rejection of a single god?

Most theists meet that criterion; I haven't met a theist yet who doesn't disbelieve in at least a few gods.

Do you think that theists can be atheists?

 

[buddhist]

"Mental rejection in the existence of deity"... as in rejection of a single god?

Most theists meet that criterion; I haven't met a theist yet who doesn't disbelieve in at least a few gods.

Do you think that theists can be atheists?

Sure, a theist can be atheist in regards to other deities.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Sure, a theist can be atheist in regards to other deities.

Not "in regards to other deities"; I'm talking about the label "atheist" without any qualifiers. Do you see any inherent contradiction in the statement "that theist is an atheist"?

 

[buddhist]

Not "in regards to other deities"; I'm talking about the label "atheist" without any qualifiers. Do you see any inherent contradiction in the statement "that theist is an atheist"?

Without qualifiers, of course there is a contradiction.

 

[Acim]

It doe snot hinge on choice because choice is irrelevant.
You are either a theist or an atheist.
Does not matter why.
Does not matter your choice.
You are either one or the other.

I would say this is incorrect, because you can be both. For sure can be both in one lifetime, but it is still "you" that is being both.
This idea that beliefs don't involve choice is odd. I believe the Cubs will win tonight. I could choose to believe Cleveland will win tonight. I believe it's possible Cleveland will win, but I choose to believe (accept) a Cubs victory in game 2. Though might get rained out, so may not happen tonight. I choose to believe it could get rained out.

While being an atheist (yesterday) and being an atheist (next week), today you could be a theist. Believe in the existence of a god. Yesterday, you did not. When you come to learn that what you today deem to be god(s) is not god(s), then next week, that might have you show up as an atheist. Because you chose to not believe what you identify as god(s) is god(s). How exactly you made that determination would seem to rest on understanding what god(s) are, thus having belief / conception in god(s), but because beliefs are chosen, you choose to not believe it is god(s).

In the moment a theist is immersed in whatever, but let's say materialistic explanation for how life came to be in the universe, and is accepting of all claims being made, do they cease to be a theist? I'm thinking most would say not. But if taking what I'm getting here to a logical extreme, then I would argue it is a choice to disbelieve in god(s) that is plausible determining factor of what makes for atheism and theism. Such that today, I could reasonably choose to be either-or umpteen dozen times. And if that is the case, then what was I today?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Without qualifiers, of course there is a contradiction.

Okay. Then it seems to me that your definition needs some work.

 

[buddhist]

Okay. Then it seems to me that your definition needs some work.

How so?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

How so?

Because it implies that anyone who rejects even a single god is an atheist, so it implies that most theists are atheists.

 

[buddhist]

Because it implies that anyone who rejects even a single god is an atheist, so it implies that most theists are atheists.

I've no problem with that. Like I've said previously, I'd also add the position that there are some who neither rejects nor not-rejects god(s).

 

[Segev Moran]

I thought that the commonly accepted definition for "atheist" is "There is no God", not "I don't think that the definitions of God are true".

You'd be wrong.
The accepted definition of an Atheist is one who doesn't believe in the existence of a spiritual deity or for that matter, any spiritual claims.
Usually, The Atheist will have a more Skeptic POV that usually makes one act in a secular world view.
Regardless of that, The fact I don't think there is a God, might be weird because that will mean that I actually have a concept of God in my mind.. which I don't..
That's why I tried explaining that when an Atheist say s/he doesn't believe there is a God, It refers to any God that might be defined (As long as it is not secular).
I Can use a phrase like "Oh my God" to make a point.. this doesn't mean I actually believe there is a God ( Certainly not mine )
What you think that represents Atheism is actually nicked as "Hard Atheist", which is basically an Atheist with the addition that claims that s/he is sure there is no God.
I Can tell you I have talked with thousands of Atheist so far, and a mere few ever claimed they Know for a fact there is no God in any form or definition.
For that matter, I Can never prove that a Deist is wrong.
What i can say though, That if indeed God is an Entity that created everything and has no impact what so ever on our existence besides being the creator, it has no meaning if there is a God or not, so to me its an Irrelevant question (And to most Atheists I know).

Hope that made things a bit more clear
Cheers

 

[buddhist]

You'd be wrong.
The accepted definition of an Atheist is one who doesn't believe in the existence of a spiritual deity or for that matter, any spiritual claims.
Usually, The Atheist will have a more Skeptic POV that usually makes one act in a secular world view.
Regardless of that, The fact I don't think there is a God, might be weird because that will mean that I actually have a concept of God in my mind.. which I don't..
That's why I tried explaining that when an Atheist say s/he doesn't believe there is a God, It refers to any God that might be defined (As long as it is not secular).
I Can use a phrase like "Oh my God" to make a point.. this doesn't mean I actually believe there is a God ( Certainly not mine )
What you think that represents Atheism is actually nicked as "Hard Atheist", which is basically an Atheist with the addition that claims that s/he is sure there is no God.
I Can tell you I have talked with thousands of Atheist so far, and a mere few ever claimed they Know for a fact there is no God in any form or definition.
For that matter, I Can never prove that a Deist is wrong.
What i can say though, That if indeed God is an Entity that created everything and has no impact what so ever on our existence besides being the creator, it has no meaning if there is a God or not, so to me its an Irrelevant question (And to most Atheists I know).

Hope that made things a bit more clear
Cheers

I wrote in agreement with a dictionary definition of "atheism", see my prior post here.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I've no problem with that.

You just acknowledged that it's contradictory.

Like I've said previously, I'd also add the position that there are some who neither rejects nor not-rejects god(s).

Everybody "not-rejects" the vast majority of the gods humanity has ever believed in. No one person has even heard of every god, let alone actually rejected all of them.

Do you believe that atheists exist?

 

[buddhist]

You just acknowledged that it's contradictory.

I only acknowledged that it's contradictory as long as there's no qualifiers, but the qualifiers exist.

Everybody "not-rejects" the vast majority of the gods humanity has ever believed in. No one person has even heard of every god, let alone actually rejected all of them.

Do you believe that atheists exist?

Yes, the ones who actively disbelieves in particular deities.

 

[Coder]

Atheist - Believes in zero gods.
Monotheist: Believes in one God.
Polytheist: Believes in more than one god.

I guess that one could say that a monotheist is an "atheist" with respect to gods other than the one God, but it's really not the right terminology because "atheist" simply means belief in no gods. Easier to just refer to atheists, monotheists, and polytheists IMHO.

 

[Acim]

I see it a little like not believing in science or that science exists. Then someone says, how are you typing on a keyboard, cause science made that? To which the person can say, I disbelieve that science did that. I do not need to explain myself. In fact, I know science doesn't exist.

 

[Willamena]

Atheist - Believes in zero gods.
Monotheist: Believes in one God.
Polytheist: Believes in more than one god.

I guess that one could say that a monotheist is an "atheist" with respect to gods other than the one God, but it's really not the right terminology because "atheist" simply means belief in no gods. Easier to just refer to atheists, monotheists, and polytheists IMHO.

Fortunately, for the monotheist there are no other gods.

The monotheist isn't saying, "Of all the gods, I pick this one."
They're saying, "Oh! God."

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I only acknowledged that it's contradictory as long as there's no qualifiers, but the qualifiers exist.

I didn't use any qualifiers.

Yes, the ones who actively disbelieves in particular deities.

... which describes virtually anyone who has considered at least a few gods, including the vast majority of theists.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Fortunately, for the monotheist there are no other gods.

The monotheist isn't saying, "Of all the gods, I pick this one."
They're saying, "Oh! God."

... except when they say precisely that.

Exodus 20:2-3:

2 “I, the Lord, am your God, who brought you from the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery.

3 “You shall have no other gods before me.

 

[Segev Moran]

I believe I've seen you express a concept of God

Any concept of God I might have mentioned is surely not mine.
It might be I describe someone else's concept of God as a reference to make a point.

and what the Entity must be, for you to be convinced otherwise.

I think your mistaken. I Didn't say what God needs to be to make me a believer..
As far as I'm concerned God can be a Red horned Horse with two lumps on his back.
That means nothing.
What i did say probably, is that in order for me to believe that there is a God that affects our reality.. That can manipulate and alter things in our universe, I will have to see a prove of things acting outside the normality or explainable scope (Like for example if I'll see my grandmother knocking on my door saying afterlife was a kick-*** which not necessarily proved God BTW))
So for me to believe that the Biblical God is real for example (another ):
I will have to witness seas tear to two.
I will have to witness talking snakes (or actually i would actually accept a scene like Harry potter, so the snake can also be telepathic) .
I Will have to see people wake to life after being dead for a long time.
I Will probably be afraid of kissing or touching any girl because they just might get pregnant out of the blue.
I Will see angels smacking me on my head when I look at a beautiful girl and imagine the things we could do together in bed.
I Will expect to hear God at least once.
I Will expect a lot of things that should happen if Abraham's God is real.

If we are talking about a Buddhist God, I will expect to find that Buddhists don't suffer and live in misery.
I Would expect to have at least one time that I've been "touched" by God or at least have some unexplained feeling of divinity (I Come from a very very spiritual family and I led a very spiritual life until I woke up )

Which I see as begging the question of 'lack of belief.'

So yes, I DO NOT BELIEVE there is a God, Gods, Entity, Spirits, Souls or any notion of that sort.

If I say money is my god, because I allow it to guide many to most of my decisions, it has what I see as power/influence over human affairs, and I appreciate it so much, I am figuratively worshipful of its existence. I am still learning about it, want more, and seemingly can't get enough.

Well, Anyone can have hes own God.. That's fine by me..
But if your God meddles with my business, You'll have to prove me that your money really is a God.
To me, money Is nothing but trouble. All troubles (almost) I have ever had in life was caused by money.
a Hugh amount hunger, abuse, violence and so much more is cause over money.. But Money was invented by HUMANS.
It is not something outside our existence.
I Can treat my Dog as my God (Notice the letters game ).. this doesn't make it an actual God!!!
BTW, I really hope that Money isn't really your God.. because I would probably find you a very hard person to trust!

And if you come along and say anything in vein of "no that's not God" that would indicate that you have a concept of god(s) that works for you, and that whatever my concept is, you think is erroneous.

On the contrary.. That just enforces my claim that God is a Personal invention that people use as an excuse to rationalize things they don't know!
The sad thing here is that it is anything BUT rational.
I Don't have a God!
I Don't know how to describe what is a God as I don't have one!
I Can say I Value money!
I Can say my Life's Goal is earning a lot of money!
I Can say Money to me is the most important thing in Life..
If that is what you define as your God... Bless you I Can point many many people who share the same belief as you.
And yes, You were right... I Do find in a very very wrong thing!

You may lack acceptance of money as (your) god, but would not really be accurate to say that there is no evidence of any god, when money has, I think, plenty of evidence for it.

You can present evidence of the affect money have on people just the same as you can prove the affect Peanut butter and Jam have on people.
If your definition of God is something that affects my life and is more important than anything else.. Enjoy
It that sense, I Can say my kids Are my Gods!
I Would sacrifice my life for them without a fraction of a thought!
I Will Kill, Steal, Abuse and tear to pieces anyone who will dare harming them!
I Will dedicate my life for their well being and for them to lead the best life they can!
ANYTHING AND EVERYONE is nothing of importance in comparison to them.
You might call it a God.. I Don't...
I Call it Nature

So, it then comes back to what concept of god(s) are you going with

My Kids Thought we already established that

i.e. entity that is beyond natural existence and (somehow, magically) has influence within natural existence.

Okay.. Let me show you an example..
If I would have to define you the color Blue..
Its not something I can explain to someone who is blind.. true..
But I could describe it as a color that expresses what cold expresses to touch.
I Can say that Blue is a wave in a specific frequency that is being refracted from an object causing it to appear in a way that represents what we call Blue (Although you know this really isn't the object's color its actually the only color the object is not :0 )
From this point on.. (Although I assume there are some more ways to technically explain the color Blue).. Anything I say is subjective and has got nothing to do what Blue really is:
I Can say its a color that represents vast horizons and makes me feel happy.
I Can say its a color people connect Sadness with.
I Can sat Blue is the most beautiful thing I have ever seen..
none of this is something that will have any thing to do with what Blue really is.

With spiritual sight, and spiritual discernment along with healthy dose of genuine honesty, you don't need to "learn" to use them.

Yet I Don't...

They are always present.

Where? God? Where????

With a whole lot of brainwashing in another direction, whereby you think seeing occurs with physical eyes

Far from it.. I am not "Seeing" with my eyes.. my eyes are nothing but a lens and collection of complex NATURAL organs and mechanisms.
What you are really seeing with is your brain...
That's why your dreams might "Look" real but (I hope) you know you are not really seeing those things you dream of (Although I might add that at times I was sure glad if it was so )
Fun fact: We actually ALWAYS see the PAST! the sun you are seeing in the sky is actually 8~ min younger than the actual sun because we are bound to the PHYSICAL realm where light takes time to travel from the object to our eyes and takes even longer for our brain to process what it is it is seeing.

If you claim that we don't really see with our physical eyes, How would you explain that we don't see ALL THING as they are right now in the exact moment they exist?
And why are people blind? Was a blind child taught to see only with his physical eye? Sounds to me you got that backwards...

then you may need to unlearn that nonsense, so that you can participate in actual Seeing.

I Guess you can see Auras and Spirits and you can know everything about me in a glance? Interesting...

Anyways,
Wishing you nothing but great sights in your life WooHoo