YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Do you think you will see him in person?
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If Christ comes today, how do you know it is really Him?
- Thread starter InvestigateTruth
- Start date
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Which makes me wonder -- if science can't prove anything so I have heard on these boards, why then wonder about religious figures?
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Which makes me wonder -- if science can't prove anything so I have heard on these boards, why then wonder about religious figures?
InChrist
Free4ever
It means He will come again as King of kings in judgment…
Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him wascalled Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes werelike a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He [a]had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in [b]fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a [c]sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on Hisrobe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.
Revelation 18:11-19
Various references to the final seven years are in both the OT, especially the book of Daniel, and the NT…
“Throughout Scripture, the tribulation is associated with the day of the Lord, that time during which God personally intervenes in history to accomplish His plan (see Isaiah 2:12; 13:6–9; Joel 1:15; 2:1–31; 3:14; 1 Thessalonians 5:2). It is referred to as “tribulation . . . in the latter days” (Deuteronomy 4:30, ESV); the great tribulation, which refers to the more intense second half of the seven-year period (Matthew 24:21); “a time of distress” (Daniel 12:1); and “the time of Jacob’s trouble” (Jeremiah 30:7, NKJV). And we have this description of the tribulation that attends the day of the Lord:”
What is the end times tribulation? How do we know the tribulation will last seven years? | GotQuestions.org
What is the tribulation? How do we know the tribulation will last seven years? What are the events that will occur during the end times tribulation?
www.gotquestions.org
The 1000 year reign of Christ…
And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received hismark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. Revelation 20:4-6
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Maybe one day, in the Spiritual realm.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
OK, I'll try to do a little research about the return of Christ. thanks.
PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
I'm not arguing for my (former) belief. I'm just arguing that people, who told and wrote the gospel narrative, believed differently. You are free to believe or disbelieve the NT Bible but there is nothing written about Baha'u'llah. It's all about Jesus.
Yes, the Spirit was also promised. Christians believed they received the Spirit at the pentecost WHILE still waiting for the coming of Jesus on judgement day. The Spirit doesn't dwell in one particular man but in all Christians who received it...
The Bible clearly says Jesus will come back (on judgement day). Why would that be an error? Because of "you will see me no more" and "my work is finished"? My TV remote also has a on/off button. When I press it to turn off the TV the picture is no more seen on TV. Next time I press the button picture comes back again. Is this impossible? Is something wrong with my TV remote control?
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe you would not likely have that opportunity and it is even less likely that He would oblige those requests. He has His own agenda and tends to stick to it.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe He explained it in the text.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe neither is true. God hates perversion and the fig tree was a symbol of that.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Baha'is put some of the things in Revelation in the time of Muhammad. They say the number of the beast is the year 666AD when the Umayyads took over Islam.It means He will come again as King of kings in judgment…
Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him wascalled Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes werelike a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He [a]had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in [b]fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a [c]sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on Hisrobe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.
Revelation 18:11-19
Various references to the final seven years are in both the OT, especially the book of Daniel, and the NT…
“Throughout Scripture, the tribulation is associated with the day of the Lord, that time during which God personally intervenes in history to accomplish His plan (see Isaiah 2:12; 13:6–9; Joel 1:15; 2:1–31; 3:14; 1 Thessalonians 5:2). It is referred to as “tribulation . . . in the latter days” (Deuteronomy 4:30, ESV); the great tribulation, which refers to the more intense second half of the seven-year period (Matthew 24:21); “a time of distress” (Daniel 12:1); and “the time of Jacob’s trouble” (Jeremiah 30:7, NKJV). And we have this description of the tribulation that attends the day of the Lord:”
What is the end times tribulation? How do we know the tribulation will last seven years? | GotQuestions.org
What is the tribulation? How do we know the tribulation will last seven years? What are the events that will occur during the end times tribulation?www.gotquestions.org
The 1000 year reign of Christ…
And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received hismark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. Revelation 20:4-6
"You have asked about the meaning of the "four beasts" referred to in Revelations, Ch. 4. ‘Abdu'l-Bahá in a Tablet has given an explanation for the reference to the "beast" mentioned in Revelations 13:18, saying that the numerical value given to the beast in that passage referred to the date of the year, i.e. 666 A.D., when the Umayyad ruler arose. This is obviously a reference to Mu'áwíyih, the Umayyad Caliph who opposed the Imamate. He speaks further on this subject in "Some Answered Questions", Chapter XI." (1 August 1978)
But in Revelation 13 it says...16 It (the Beast) also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.
18 This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. That number is 666.
How Abdul Baha' gets that to be the year the Umayyads got control of Islam, I'll never understand.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
You are correct. These particular verses about seeing the Son of man in the clouds are not about Baha'u'llah, they are about Jesus.
That is a valid perspective because the men who wrote Matthew and Mark probably believed that Jesus was coming back to earth.
However, that does not mean that Jesus was planning to come back to earth, because in John, Jesus said His work was finished here and he was no more in the world (John 14:19, John 16:10, John 17:4, John 17:11, John 19:30).
Thanks for pointing that out, since that explains why the Bible says what it says. Jesus never said "you will see me" in the first person.
All the verses are in the third person, e.g., ye shall see the Son of man. The writers of the NT no doubt believed that.
Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Matthew 24:30-31 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
However, you are incorrect in saying that there is nothing in the NT Bible that refers to Baha'u'llah, since the verses in John 14, 15 and 16 that refer to the Comforter and the Spirit of truth are about Baha'u'llah.
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
The Christians can believe whatever they want to, and they will. It is no skin off my nose.
The Holy Spirit did come at Pentecost, but then it came again in the last days. Many times I have explained to Christians why the Spirit of truth is not the Holy Spirit that came at Pentecost.
You might be correct in saying that certain chapters say that Jesus is coming back on judgment day.
But show me some verses where Jesus says that He is coming back to earth to judge on judgment day.
That analogy will not work.
Jesus said he was no more in the world and that the world would see Him no more.
No more means no further, never again.
There is no button that Christians push to bring Jesus back to earth.
John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
No more means no further, never again.
no more
- nothing further.
"there was no more to be said about it" - no further.
"you must have some soup, but no more wine" - exist no longer.
"the patch of ground was overgrown and the hut was no more" - never again.
"mention his name no more to me" - neither.
"I had no complaints and no more did Tom"
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CG Didymus
Veteran Member
The "Son of Man", the "Lamb", the "Lamb that was slain" In Revelation 22 it says...
12 “Look, I am coming soon!... 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End... 16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.” ...20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.”
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
Supposedly, this is the same John that wrote the gospel. If so, he's the one saying "Come, Lord Jesus." Not "Oh come spirit of Christ, in another man, because the physical man, Jesus, is dead and not coming back, ever. I don't know why she keeps saying that if Jesus is coming back that the Bible would be in "error"? Because Baha'is do believe it has errors. One of the biggest ones is that Baha'u'llah said that it was Ishmael, not Isaac, that was taken by Abraham to be sacrificed.
But even when not in error by what it says, Baha'is believe Christians are in error in the way they interpret the Bible and the NT. The big one there is this thing about Jesus coming back to life. They say the physical resurrection was only symbolic. But the gospel stories flow right from the crucifixion to the burial to the resurrection to the appearances to the ascension. It's one continual story.
So, is the Bible and the NT in error? Yeah, why not. Why don't Baha'is just come out and admit it? They don't believe it is the literal, inerrant, infallible Word of God. Neither do I.
But they make it into what they need it to be... a symbolic story, not a literal story. A story that tells of the coming of their prophet, Baha'u'llah. Making it absolutely necessary to show that it is not Jesus that is coming back.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
If the John who wrote the Book of Revelation is the same John who wrote the gospel, he would have known that Jesus as not coming back to earth, ever.
John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
According to what fetish is it "perverted" for a fig tree to not have figs when it isn't the season for figs?
If that's perverted, then I shudder what you'd think of the smutty apple orchards around here. It's early spring, so - shock! - none of the trees have any apples on them.
You sure banged the nail on the head with this statement in my view.
So since there is no logical reason to believe *any* verses in the Bible are true why do Baha'i believe a cherry picked selection of Bible verses are true?
Oh yeah, because of a hagiographic story about Baha'u'llah's life, mission and teachings which in my view does not withstand critical review when we look at all the reliable evidence as opposed to simply Bahai hagiography.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
There are probably not very many verses that TB is going to take literally. But those few verses in John are the exception. He meant exactly what he said.
But what are the problems taking any verses in the Bible or the NT literally? Who wrote them? That is especially true with the gospels. Then... were these people eyewitnesses and saw Jesus and heard him say these things? Even if they were... by the time they wrote the gospels, how did they remember the exact words?
And Baha'is know those problems and use them to show why their Scriptures are more accurate... Because their prophet wrote the stuff down himself.
It's amazing how all other contradictory verses don't matter. John, or whoever wrote that gospel, quotes Jesus as saying he's not going to be in the world anymore, so that's it... that's for sure true... no matter what else it says in the NT. And, of course, for Baha'is, the resurrection doesn't count, because they don't believe really came back to life. Jesus is dead and gone.
But Baha'is still have the problem of explaining that three "Christs" returned after Jesus... Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah. That only opens up a bigger mess for them and even more "creative" use of verses in the Christian version of the Bible.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Yes, Baha'is can only be sure of verses quoted in the Baha'i writings. I wonder if TB's verses from John are in there?
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Going through some things that relate to this discussion, I came across where Baha'is say that the "prince of this world" is their prophet.
Thou didst ask as to chapter 14, verse 30 of the Gospel of John, where the Lord Christ saith, ’Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the Prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.’ The Prince of this world is the Blessed Beauty [Baha’u’llah]; and ’hath nothing in Me’ signifieth: after Me all will draw grace from Me, but He is independent of Me, and will draw no grace from Me. That is, He is rich beyond any grace of Mine. – Abdu’l-Baha, Selections From the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha, p. 171.
According to Christian interpreters, John 14:30 has two parallels, which are as follows:
Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. – John 12:31.
Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. – John 16:11.
Suffice it to say that Abdu’l-Baha has interpreted John 14:30 only, not John 12:31 or John 16:11. One reason may be that, elsewhere, Abdu’l-Baha makes clear that no Satan exists: