If Christ wasn't the messiah, what was he?

[Brian2]

Hezekiah.

BTW, your translation is a little flawed (as are most Christian translations of this verse). In Hebrew, linking verbs are implied. For example, Dani-El literally means "God my judge." That's awkward. The linking verb is implied. "God IS my judge."

In the same way, you have to supply the linking verbs in English when you translate. "A wonderful counselor IS the mighty God. The everlasting Father IS the prince of peace."

It is very, very common for Hebrew names to make such statements ABOUT God. Samuel (aka Shmu El; God has heard), Elijah (aka Eli-yah(u); the LORD is God), Jeremiah (aka Yirme-yah(u) the LORD will exalt), Joshua (aka Yeh-oshua; the LORD is salvation)... etc etc etc.

There seem to be a variety of Jewish translations of those names and I have heard that someone has even joined them together into one long name and others seem to have added words to make it look like God has called the child something.
I don't know if any of them have the linking verb "IS".
Isn't the "Christian" translation at least as legitimate as any of the Jewish translations.
When it comes to "Mighty God" being similar to "Hezekiah" in meaning and so making the passage about Hezekiah, that sounds like a long stretch.

 

[Brian2]

Jerome's Bible Commentary, which is an excellent Catholic commentary btw, states that the book of Isaiah does not deal with the emergence of Jesus but with the return of Jews from Babylonian captivity. I have read Isaiah several times from beginning to end and I do have to agree with that commentary on this.

Yes Isaiah seems to have more than one theme happening but we also have many prophecies about Jesus running through Isaiah.

 

[Brian2]

This is what motivated reasoning looks like. Your motivation is to try to reconcile OT messianic prophecy with your faith-based belief that Jesus fulfilled it. Absent that, you'd see what the skeptic sees. You'd see a list of qualities of the Messiah from the OT and those of Jesus from the NT, and you'd see that they contradict one another in a variety of places, one being that the era of world peace didn't arrive during Jesus' life, and that therefore this was not the one predicted. But you simply will not allow your mind to be led to that conclusion, so you look for ways to overlook the contradiction as you're doing here.

I look with eyes of faith but I am not overlooking the contradiction, I am just seeing what those without faith do not see usually, that there is no contradiction. Jesus did not fulfil all the OT Messianic prophecies, but those prophecies do not have a timeline and for Jesus, who still is alive, they don't have to be fulfilled within one person's life span of about 70 years.
Interestingly the Jews and other skeptics about Jesus usually don't even see any prophecies of the Messiah which include a resurrection or even the death of the Messiah, and certainly don't believe that Jesus rose from the dead.
If you believed Jesus rose from the dead then you too would see what is obvious and what is logical about the prophecies and about the Messiah.
Some Jews have proposed more than one Messiah to fulfil what seem like contradictions in the OT prophecies, but Jesus does away with that as the suffering and resurrected and returning to earth Messiah.

Imagine a fortune teller telling you that you would be killed one day by an old, bald man and you believed that. Later, a young man with a full head of hair is glaring at you menacingly, and you shoot him dead thinking that this must be the one the fortune teller warned you about. Never mind that a list of the prophecies one (old, bald) doesn't match the description of the person you are convinced is that person. When the glaring contradiction is pointed out to you, you say that the oldness and baldness haven't manifest yet, but the guy you killed was definitely the person the fortune teller foresaw.

THAT'S motivated thinking, and its only use is to defend wrong beliefs from evidence. That's also the description of a confirmation bias. And that's what you're doing.

Your analogy is really bad and does not fit at all. Killing a young man who has hair actually shows the fortune teller to be wrong.
My thinking is actually faith thinking and is based on believing the resurrection story of Jesus and seeing OT prophecy about the resurrection of the Messiah and believing it.
IOW it all makes sense with those things in place.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Isn't the "Christian" translation at least as legitimate as any of the Jewish translations.

No.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I am just seeing what those without faith do not see usually, that there is no contradiction.

You've just described motivated reasoning. With faith, you see things that others who do not share your beliefs do not. You probably think that that faith gives you special powers of discernment. I think that your faith motivates you to try to reconcile the discrepancies between OT prophecy and the Gospels. You assume that the one foretells the other, and so for you it does however unmatched the two accounts are.

And this is why the skeptic doesn't see what you see. He is not trying to reconcile the two accounts. He's just comparing them and noticing that they don't match, something that the motivated thinker can't and won't do.

Jesus did not fulfil all the OT Messianic prophecies, but those prophecies do not have a timeline and for Jesus, who still is alive, they don't have to be fulfilled within one person's life span of about 70 years.

By that reckoning, anybody might be the Messiah. You might be. I might be. It's true that I meet none of the criteria, but if those prophecies don't have a timeline, nobody need meet any of them to make the claim. If I claim to be the Messiah, what is your test to reject my claim if none of the signs need to be present for me to make it?

Killing a young man who has hair actually shows the fortune teller to be wrong.

I'd say it shows the shooter to be wrong, but using your theory, he could argue that this victim would eventually fulfill the fortune teller's predictions and become elderly and lose his hair, so that must have been or might be the guy - one of those. The point is that if you don't need the predicted qualities to be there to call Jesus Messiah, then the predicted qualities might as well not have been predicted, because they didn't enter into the decision as to whether a given individual was the one foretold.

 

[metis]

Yes Isaiah seems to have more than one theme happening but we also have many prophecies about Jesus running through Isaiah.

Not really, especially when one puts it into the context of the time because the main theme is the necessity ordained by God to follow the entire Law, all 613 Commandments. But what one can do is to take the Suffering Servant account and then see how history often repeats itself.

 

[Brian2]

You've just described motivated reasoning. With faith, you see things that others who do not share your beliefs do not. You probably think that that faith gives you special powers of discernment. I think that your faith motivates you to try to reconcile the discrepancies between OT prophecy and the Gospels. You assume that the one foretells the other, and so for you it does however unmatched the two accounts are.

And this is why the skeptic doesn't see what you see. He is not trying to reconcile the two accounts. He's just comparing them and noticing that they don't match, something that the motivated thinker can't and won't do.

It is just the truth that the Messianic prophecies don't have to be fulfilled in the short lifetime of one man if that one man lives forever. If you reject Jesus then like the Jews you probably reject the Messianic prophecies that He fulfilled, including the resurrection prophecies and so don't see that the Messianic times began with Jesus and continue till He returns. Jesus is just a failed Messiah to someone without faith in Jesus.

By that reckoning, anybody might be the Messiah. You might be. I might be. It's true that I meet none of the criteria, but if those prophecies don't have a timeline, nobody need meet any of them to make the claim. If I claim to be the Messiah, what is your test to reject my claim if none of the signs need to be present for me to make it?

If you fulfill the prophecies that Jesus fulfilled then you can claim to be the Messiah. IOW it is not just a matter of putting up your hand, Jesus fulfilled prophecy.

I'd say it shows the shooter to be wrong, but using your theory, he could argue that this victim would eventually fulfill the fortune teller's predictions and become elderly and lose his hair, so that must have been or might be the guy - one of those. The point is that if you don't need the predicted qualities to be there to call Jesus Messiah, then the predicted qualities might as well not have been predicted, because they didn't enter into the decision as to whether a given individual was the one foretold.

The thing is that Jesus did fulfil Messianic prophecy and just because the Jews disagree that He fulfilled anything does not mean that He did not.
The predicted qualities are there and all the Jews see are the Messianic prophecies that He he did not yet fulfil.
Interestingly in the past Rabbis have agreed about some main Messianic prophecies that Christians say are Messianic,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but not these days.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

It is just the truth that the Messianic prophecies don't have to be fulfilled in the short lifetime of one man if that one man lives forever.

Nobody lives forever. The Messiah was not expected to live forever. The description of him need to be fulfilled before his death. If they are not, one has the wrong candidate in mind. That's what that description is for - to recognize the Messiah.

If you reject Jesus then like the Jews you probably reject the Messianic prophecies that He fulfilled, including the resurrection prophecies and so don't see that the Messianic times began with Jesus and continue till He returns. Jesus is just a failed Messiah to someone without faith in Jesus.

One doesn't need to have any opinions about who Jesus was to recognize that the OT description of the Messiah and the NT description of Jesus don't describe the same person.

If you fulfill the prophecies that Jesus fulfilled then you can claim to be the Messiah.

Yes, and if Jesus had fulfilled them, then HE could be called the Messiah. That's my point.

Jesus fulfilled prophecy.

No, he didn't.

just because the Jews disagree that He fulfilled anything does not mean that He did not.

The Jews disagree BECAUSE Jesus did not fulfill prophecy. Nobody thinks he did Jew or non-Jew unless they are a Christian, in which case they take it on faith that Jesus was the Messiah. That's not a good way to analyze evidence. It leads to motivated reasoning to make the doctrine correct however incorrect it may be in the eyes of those who don't accept it by faith.

 

[metis]

Interestingly in the past Rabbis have agreed about some main Messianic prophecies that Christians say are Messianic,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but not these days.

Such as?

 

[Brian2]

Such as?

From this site: Messianic Prophecy - Jews for Jesus
There are other passages also that Jews and Christians have interpreted to be Messianic but the Jews do not do that these any longer.

Messiah will suffer and die to atone for sin​

In Isaiah 53, the prophet foretells that the Messiah will suffer and die for the sins of Israel before.

Historic context for messianic prophecies in​

The oldest objection to the Messiahship of Jesus has been that he never established peace on earth and restored the Jewish nation.

World peace must accompany the Messiah, and should peace not come, the Messiah has obviously not come . . . what is the Christian explanation? There will be . . . a second coming, at which time Jesus will fulfill the messianic functions originally expected of him. For Jews . . . this explanation is logically unsatisfactory and the idea of a second coming is nowhere to be found in the Bible.28

Rabbis argued that the Messiah was supposed to establish peace on earth, restore the kingdom to Israel, and reign on the throne of David. Since Jesus died without accomplishing these, he is not the Messiah. Christians construed the idea of a second coming and that the Messiah first had to die for our sins. This belief is not found in the Jewish Scriptures, nor was it ever accepted by Judaism prior to Jesus. Was the “second coming” an afterthought by Christians? Or did the Hebrew prophets describe a suffering Messiah who would precede a reigning Messiah?

The Servant Songs​

Isaiah’s Servant Songs (Isaiah 42, 49, 50, and 53) are prose describing the life and mission of one simply identified as the Servant of Yahweh. These passages describe his mission:

This is My servant, whom I uphold, My chosen one, in whom I delight. I have put My spirit upon him, He shall teach the true way to the nations. (Isaiah 42:1, JPS)
He who formed me in the womb to be His servant—To bring back Jacob to Himself, that Israel may be restored to Him. (Isaiah 49:5, JPS)

Then in the 53rd chapter, Isaiah writes,

He was despised, shunned by men, A man of suffering, familiar with disease. As one who hid his face from us, He was despised, we held him of no account. Yet it was our sickness that he was bearing, our suffering that he endured. We accounted him plagued, smitten and afflicted by God; But he was wounded because of our sins, crushed because of our iniquities. He bore the chastisement that made us whole, and by his bruises we were healed. We all went astray like sheep, each going his own way; And the LORD visited upon him the guilt of all of us. (Isaiah 53:3-6, JPS)

In this passage, Isaiah describes the servant of the Yahweh as (1) rejected by people, (2) suffering, (3) wounded for Israel’s transgressions, and (4) carrying the guilt of the people of Israel upon him. The word מְחֹלָל m’cholal means “to pierce” (Isaiah 53:5). The servant was pierced through.

Isaiah continues, “For he was cut off from the land of the living through the sin of my people, who deserved the punishment” (Isaiah 53:8 JPS).

The servant is killed. However, his death is considered by the prophet to be a guilt offering: “He made himself an offering for guilt” (53:10 JPS). The word for guilt offering, ‘asham (אסהאם), is used in the Pentateuch for the guilt offering the high priest offered on behalf of Israel to atone for their sins.

Rabbinic interpretations of Isaiah’s Servant Songs​

Remarkably, this mission of the servant seems to describe Jesus. Jesus was rejected by the nation, suffered, identified with those who suffered, and was martyred. However, his followers claimed that his death atoned for the sins of the people. Rabbis disagree with this interpretation. In the first place, Isaiah says, “You are My servant, Israel in whom I glory” (Isaiah 49:3, JPS). The medieval exegete Shlomo Yitzhaki (Rashi) explained that the servant described is Israel.

He mentions all Israel as one man, e.g., (44:2) “Fear not, My servant Jacob”; (44:1) “And now, hearken, Jacob, My servant.” Here too (52:13), “Behold My servant shall prosper,” he said concerning the house of Jacob.29

In response, it must be said that Rashi wrote his commentary in France during the first Crusade. In 1096, European armies marched through the Rhineland on their way to liberate Palestine. As they passed through the Rhineland, they burned down Jewish villages and murdered Jews.30 It is logical that Rashi witnessed the suffering of the Jewish people at the hands of sinners, and saw in this tragic servant of the LORD a personification of Medieval Jewish suffering.

Rashi, Isaiah 53, and Israel​

Whatever his reasons, Rashi was the first interpreter to apply Isaiah 53 to Israel and influence future interpretation of this passage. “Until Rashi . . . applied it [Isaiah 53] to the Jewish nation, the Messianic interpretation of this chapter was almost universally adopted by Jews.”31 Some rabbis disagreed with Rashi and continued to maintain that the servant of Yahweh is the messiah. R. Eliyya de Vidas writing in 16th century said,

The meaning of “He was wounded for our transgressions, . . . bruised for our iniquities,” is that since the Messiah bears our iniquities, which produce the effect of His being bruised, it follows that whoso will not admit that the Messiah thus suffers for our iniquities must endure and suffer for them himself.32

Prior to the Rashi’s reinterpretation of the meaning, the servant of Yahweh was understood by most Jewish sages to refer to the Messiah. The following are some examples: Targum Jonathan (an Aramaic translation) of the book of Isaiah, dating around the second century, says,

“Behold, My servant the Messiah shall prosper.”33 The Babylonian Talmud says, What is the Messiah’s name? . . . The rabbis said: his name is the ‘Leper Scholar.’ As it is written Surely he hath borne our griefs and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God and afflicted (b. Sanhedrin 98b)34

Midrash Ruth Rabbah, dated around the fifth century AD, a commentary on the Book of Ruth, comments on Ruth’s interaction with Boaz:

And Boaz said unto her . . . come hither, and eat of the bread, and dip thy morsel in the vinegar . . . [an] interpretation makes it refer to the Messiah . . . And dip thy morsel in the vinegar refers to his sufferings as it is said, But he was wounded because of our transgressions (Isaiah LIII, 5) (Midrash Ruth Rabbah 5:6)35

The medieval rabbi Maimonides (Rambam) wrote in the twelfth century:

What is to be the manner of Messiah’s advent, and where will be the place of his appearance? . . . He came up as a sucker before him, and as a root out of the dry earth . . . in the words of Isaiah, when describing the manner in which the kings . . . will shut their mouth; for that which had not been told them they have seen, and that which they had not heard they have perceived.36

Pre-Christian interpretations of Isaiah 53​

Perhaps the most remarkable finding is from Qumran. Second century BC discoveries among the Dead Sea Scrolls found pre-rabbinic Jewish interpretations of Isaiah 53 during the second temple period. Among them is the Self-Glorification Hymn, 4Q471b, in which the writer quotes Isaiah 53 in first person and identifies himself as a divine Messiah, seated in heaven with the angels:

Who is counted as me to be despised and who is despised as me? Who is like me, forsaken by men . . . And who is like me among the gods [angels] . . . for I [am seated] with the gods [angels], and my glory is with the sons of the King.37

The Israeli archaeologist Israel Knohl explains that the writer of the hymn claims to be the Messiah, and even claims to be, in some sense, divine. The Qumran Messiah claims to be the suffering Messiah from Isaiah 53, and at the same time seated in heaven with the angels. The finding is significant because it dates the messianic interpretation of Isaiah 53 over a century before Christianity and before the emergence of rabbinic Judaism:

Thus, the messianic interpretation of Isaiah 53 was not discovered in the Christian Church. It was already developed by Qumran. In view of these facts, we should consider the possibility that the depiction of Jesus as a combination of the “Son of Man” and the “suffering servant” was not a later invention of the Church. Perhaps the historical Jesus really did see himself in this way.38

These citations address the very heart of the question raised at the beginning of the study. Did early Christians reinterpret the messianic narrative in the Jewish Bible in order to explain Jesus’ death? Clearly, many Jews already understood that the Messiah would suffer and die for the sins of the people. They interpreted Isaiah 53 in that way. A suffering, then later, reigning messiah was an acceptable view not only by Christians or rabbinic scholars but even by pre-rabbinic interpreters before the first century.

​

 

[Brian2]

Nobody lives forever. The Messiah was not expected to live forever. The description of him need to be fulfilled before his death. If they are not, one has the wrong candidate in mind. That's what that description is for - to recognize the Messiah.

Jesus did not live forever. He died and rose again and now is alive forever. His suffering and death is seen in the OT and His resurrection also can be seen there.

One doesn't need to have any opinions about who Jesus was to recognize that the OT description of the Messiah and the NT description of Jesus don't describe the same person.

That would depend which prophecies in the OT you see as describing the Messiah.
The Jews used to accept as Messianic, many of the prophecies that Christians accept. Jews usually reject those prophecies as Messianic these days. See post

• #590

for example.

No, he didn't.

It sounds like you only accept what the Jews say are Messianic prophecies.

The Jews disagree BECAUSE Jesus did not fulfill prophecy. Nobody thinks he did Jew or non-Jew unless they are a Christian, in which case they take it on faith that Jesus was the Messiah. That's not a good way to analyze evidence. It leads to motivated reasoning to make the doctrine correct however incorrect it may be in the eyes of those who don't accept it by faith.

Christians see OT prophecies that Jesus fulfilled and which even Jews used to see as Messianic.

 

[metis]

From this site: Messianic Prophecy - Jews for Jesus
There are other passages also that Jews and Christians have interpreted to be Messianic but the Jews do not do that these any longer.

Messiah will suffer and die to atone for sin​

In Isaiah 53, the prophet foretells that the Messiah will suffer and die for the sins of Israel before.

Historic context for messianic prophecies in​

The oldest objection to the Messiahship of Jesus has been that he never established peace on earth and restored the Jewish nation.


Rabbis argued that the Messiah was supposed to establish peace on earth, restore the kingdom to Israel, and reign on the throne of David. Since Jesus died without accomplishing these, he is not the Messiah. Christians construed the idea of a second coming and that the Messiah first had to die for our sins. This belief is not found in the Jewish Scriptures, nor was it ever accepted by Judaism prior to Jesus. Was the “second coming” an afterthought by Christians? Or did the Hebrew prophets describe a suffering Messiah who would precede a reigning Messiah?

The Servant Songs​

Isaiah’s Servant Songs (Isaiah 42, 49, 50, and 53) are prose describing the life and mission of one simply identified as the Servant of Yahweh. These passages describe his mission:


Then in the 53rd chapter, Isaiah writes,


In this passage, Isaiah describes the servant of the Yahweh as (1) rejected by people, (2) suffering, (3) wounded for Israel’s transgressions, and (4) carrying the guilt of the people of Israel upon him. The word מְחֹלָל m’cholal means “to pierce” (Isaiah 53:5). The servant was pierced through.

Isaiah continues, “For he was cut off from the land of the living through the sin of my people, who deserved the punishment” (Isaiah 53:8 JPS).

The servant is killed. However, his death is considered by the prophet to be a guilt offering: “He made himself an offering for guilt” (53:10 JPS). The word for guilt offering, ‘asham (אסהאם), is used in the Pentateuch for the guilt offering the high priest offered on behalf of Israel to atone for their sins.

Rabbinic interpretations of Isaiah’s Servant Songs​

Remarkably, this mission of the servant seems to describe Jesus. Jesus was rejected by the nation, suffered, identified with those who suffered, and was martyred. However, his followers claimed that his death atoned for the sins of the people. Rabbis disagree with this interpretation. In the first place, Isaiah says, “You are My servant, Israel in whom I glory” (Isaiah 49:3, JPS). The medieval exegete Shlomo Yitzhaki (Rashi) explained that the servant described is Israel.

He mentions all Israel as one man, e.g., (44:2) “Fear not, My servant Jacob”; (44:1) “And now, hearken, Jacob, My servant.” Here too (52:13), “Behold My servant shall prosper,” he said concerning the house of Jacob.29

In response, it must be said that Rashi wrote his commentary in France during the first Crusade. In 1096, European armies marched through the Rhineland on their way to liberate Palestine. As they passed through the Rhineland, they burned down Jewish villages and murdered Jews.30 It is logical that Rashi witnessed the suffering of the Jewish people at the hands of sinners, and saw in this tragic servant of the LORD a personification of Medieval Jewish suffering.

Rashi, Isaiah 53, and Israel​

Whatever his reasons, Rashi was the first interpreter to apply Isaiah 53 to Israel and influence future interpretation of this passage. “Until Rashi . . . applied it [Isaiah 53] to the Jewish nation, the Messianic interpretation of this chapter was almost universally adopted by Jews.”31 Some rabbis disagreed with Rashi and continued to maintain that the servant of Yahweh is the messiah. R. Eliyya de Vidas writing in 16th century said,


Prior to the Rashi’s reinterpretation of the meaning, the servant of Yahweh was understood by most Jewish sages to refer to the Messiah. The following are some examples: Targum Jonathan (an Aramaic translation) of the book of Isaiah, dating around the second century, says,


Midrash Ruth Rabbah, dated around the fifth century AD, a commentary on the Book of Ruth, comments on Ruth’s interaction with Boaz:


The medieval rabbi Maimonides (Rambam) wrote in the twelfth century:

Pre-Christian interpretations of Isaiah 53​

Perhaps the most remarkable finding is from Qumran. Second century BC discoveries among the Dead Sea Scrolls found pre-rabbinic Jewish interpretations of Isaiah 53 during the second temple period. Among them is the Self-Glorification Hymn, 4Q471b, in which the writer quotes Isaiah 53 in first person and identifies himself as a divine Messiah, seated in heaven with the angels:


The Israeli archaeologist Israel Knohl explains that the writer of the hymn claims to be the Messiah, and even claims to be, in some sense, divine. The Qumran Messiah claims to be the suffering Messiah from Isaiah 53, and at the same time seated in heaven with the angels. The finding is significant because it dates the messianic interpretation of Isaiah 53 over a century before Christianity and before the emergence of rabbinic Judaism:


These citations address the very heart of the question raised at the beginning of the study. Did early Christians reinterpret the messianic narrative in the Jewish Bible in order to explain Jesus’ death? Clearly, many Jews already understood that the Messiah would suffer and die for the sins of the people. They interpreted Isaiah 53 in that way. A suffering, then later, reigning messiah was an acceptable view not only by Christians or rabbinic scholars but even by pre-rabbinic interpreters before the first century.

​

Within Judaism, here's a list that many to most observant Jews tend to believe are Messianic:
The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)

Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance (Isaiah 2:4)

The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)

He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8–10)

The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)

Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)

Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)

He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)

All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)

Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)

There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)

All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)

The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)

He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)

Nations will recognize the wrongs they did Israel (Isaiah 52:13–53:5)

For My House (the Temple in Jerusalem) shall be called a house of prayer for all nations (Isaiah 56:3–7)

The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)

The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)

Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)

The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvoth

He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)

Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)

He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)

He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13–15, Ezekiel 36:29–30, Isaiah 11:6–9)

As for me, I really don't much get into either one.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Jesus ... died and rose again and now is alive forever.

I don't believe that. Why would I? The argument for resurrection is that some people say that some other people saw Jesus when he was supposedly dead, and that when a rock was rolled away, there was no body to be seen. There would need to be a suspension f the laws of nature to revivify a body three days dead, and there's no reason to believe that can or has been done.

That would depend which prophecies in the OT you see as describing the Messiah.

It seems like you consider that a subjective process, that one is free to disregard some of the prophecies if he likes.

But yes, my argument is the same as the Jews and all other non-Christians. Here are two treatments I've copied and kept. These are the OT messianic prophecies and where you can find them in scripture. Jesus didn't fulfill these predictions/descriptions (@metis just posted a similar list):

Criteria for Messiah.
If he fails in one of these, then he cannot be the Messiah.

1. He must be a Jew (Deut 17:15, Num 24:17) - The only condition fulfilled by Jesus.
2. He must be a direct descendant of King David (Isaiah 11:1) through King Solomon (I Proverbs 22:8-10), only if Solomon kept his faith in God Yahweh (II Chronicles 7 :19) which, however, did not keep finally (1 Kings 11:4).
3. The Great Sanhedrin (Great Council) will be restored (Isaiah 1:26)
4. Once he is king, the leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
5. All the world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)
6. The Messiah will be a man of the world, an observant Jew with the "fear of God." He won't be divine. (Isaiah 11:2)
7. Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership. (Isaiah 11:4)
8. The knowledge of God will fill the world. (Isaiah 11:9)
9. It will attract people from all cultures and nations. (Isaiah 11:10)
10. All the Israelites will return to their homeland. (Isaiah 11:12)
11. There will be no more famine or disease, and death will end. (Isaiah 25:8)
12. All the dead will rise. (Isaiah 26:19)
13. The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and rejoicing. (Isaiah 51:11)
14. He will be a messenger of peace. (Isaiah 52:7)
15. The nations will recognize the mistakes they made in Israel. (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
16. The people of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance. (Zechariah 8:23)
17. The ruined cities of Israel will be restored. (Ezekiel 16:55)
18. The weapons of war will be destroyed. (Ezekiel 39:9)
19. The Temple will be rebuilt. (Ezekiel 40)
20. The whole world will serve God together. (Zephaniah 3:9)
21. The Jews will know the Torah (Testament), without study. (Jeremiah 31:33)
22. He will take barren land and make it fruitful and abundant. (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9).
23. Universal worldwide acceptance of the Jewish God and the Jewish religion (Isaiah 2:3 11:10 66:23 Micah 4:2-3 Zechariah 14:9) Zechariah 8:23 "Thus says the Lord of hosts: In those days ten men from the nations of every tongue shall take hold of the robe of a Jewish man, saying, ‘Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you”.

=========

1. The Messiah is born of two human parents, as we said. But Jesus, according to Christian theology, was born of the union between a human woman and Gd (as were many other pagan deities, see above) rather than two human parents.

2. The Messiah can trace his lineage through his human biological father, back to King David (Isaiah 11:1,10; Jeremiah 23:5; Ezekiel 34:23-24; 37:21-28; Jeremiah 30:7-10; 33:14-16; Hosea 3:4-5). According to Christian theology, Jesus’s father was Gd. Therefore, Jesus’ lineage does not go through his human ‘father’ — Joseph, the husband of Mary.

3. The Messiah traces his lineage only through King Solomon (II Samuel 7:12-17; I Chronicles 22:9-10). But according to Luke 3:31, Jesus was not a descendant of Solomon, but of Solomon’s half-brother Nathan. Therefore Jesus was not a descendant of King David through King Solomon, and fails this test as well.

4. The Messiah may not be a descendant of Jehoiakim, Jeconiah, or Shealtiel, because this royal line was cursed. (I Chronicles 3:15-17; Jeremiah 22:18,30). But according to Matthew 1:11-12 and Luke 3:27, Jesus was a descendant of Shealtiel.

5. The Messiah is preceded by Elijah the prophet who, together with the Messiah, unifies the family (Malachi 4:5-6). This is contradicted by Jesus himself (Matthew 10:34-37).

According to the traditional Jewish definition of the term, the Messiah will make changes in the real world, changes that one can see and perceive and be able to prove, precisely because they take place in the real world. It is for this task that the Messiah has been anointed in the first place, hence the term, messiah — one who is anointed. These perceptible changes include:

6. The Messiah reestablishes the Davidic dynasty through his own children (Daniel 7:13-14).
But Jesus had no children.

7. The Messiah brings an eternal peace between all nations, all peoples, and all people (Isaiah 2:2-4; Micah 4:1-4; Ezekiel 39:9). Obviously there is no peace. Furthermore, Jesus said that his purpose in coming was to bring a sword, and not peace (see Matthew 10:34, as referenced above).

8. The Messiah brings about the world-wide conversion of all peoples to Ethical Monotheism (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Zechariah 8:23; Isaiah 11:9; Zechariah 14:9,16).
But the world remains steeped in idolatry.

9. The Messiah brings about an end to all forms of idolatry (Zechariah 13:2).
But the world remains steeped in idolatry.

10. The Messiah brings about a universal recognition that the Jewish idea of Gd is Gd (Isaiah 11:9).
But the world remains steeped in idolatry.

11. The Messiah leads the world to become vegetarian (Isaiah 11:6-9).

12. The Messiah gathers to Israel all of the twelve tribes (Ezekiel 36:24).

13. The Messiah rebuilds the Temple (Isaiah 2:2; Ezekiel 37:26-28).

14. After the Messiah comes, there will be no more famine (Ezekiel 36:29-30).

15. After the Messiah comes, death will eventually cease (Isaiah 25:8).

16. Eventually the dead will be resurrected (Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:2; Ezekiel 37:12-13; Isaiah 43:5-6).

17. The nations of the earth will help the Jews materially (Isaiah 60:5-6; 60:10-12).

18. The Jews will be sought out for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23).

19. All weapons will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9,12).

20. The Nile will run dry (Isaiah 11:15).

21. Monthly, the trees of Israel will yield their fruit (Ezekiel 47:12).

22. Each tribe of Israel will receive and settle their inherited land (Ezekiel 47:13-13).

23. The nations of the earth will recognize that they have been in error, that the Jews had it right all along, and that the sins of the Gentile nations – their persecutions and the murders they committed – have been borne by the Jewish people (Isaiah 53).

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Just for the sake of discussion, if Christ wasn't the Messiah, what was he?

The Greek translation of Messiah is Khristós, which is anglicized as Christ, so the question being asked could be put thus.... "if Christ wasn't the Christ, what was he?

 

[paarsurrey]

If Christ wasn't the messiah, what was he?

(Jesus)Yeshua was the truthful Israelite Messiah, I get it, right, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

The Greek translation of Messiah is Khristós, which is anglicized as Christ, so the question being asked could be put thus.... "if Christ wasn't the Christ, what was he?

Why to anglicise from Greek, when (Jesus)Yeshua was an Israelite and was sent, I get it, as Messiah to the Israelites only, right, please??!

Regards

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Why to anglicise from Greek, when (Jesus)Yeshua was an Israelite and was sent, I get it, as Messiah to the Israelites only, right, please??!

Regards

The New Testament was written in Greek, and thus in the translation to English, Kristos was anglicized.

Was the New Testament Written in Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek?

The New Testament was originally written in Greek. This claim is not particularly controversial among biblical scholars, though some have argued that parts of the New Testament were originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic.

Some popular writers and religious groups, however, have claimed that much or all of the New Testament was originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic. In this article, we will survey the evidence and arguments that lead the vast majority of scholars today to believe that the original language of the New Testament was Greek.

Cont...

 

[Subduction Zone]

The Greek translation of Messiah is Khristós, which is anglicized as Christ, so the question being asked could be put thus.... "if Christ wasn't the Christ, what was he?

Jesus's name was not "Jesus Christ". Christ is just, as you pointed out, from the Greek and it means "Messiah". In his day he would have been known as either "Jesus of Nazareth" or "Jesus son of Joseph" or a combination of the both.

 

[jimb]

The Greek translation of Messiah is Khristós, which is anglicized as Christ, so the question being asked could be put thus.... "if Christ wasn't the Christ, what was he?

He was and is the Christ.

 

[Subduction Zone]

He was and is the Christ.

Okay. That is a claim. How would you support it?