If "everything is energy" then what does this mean?

[Aupmanyav]

No, it has not. It does not understand 'absolute nothing'. It does not know how energy acquires mass. Quantum Physics does not explain that. I will wait.

 

[Runewolf1973]

If change is real, there must be something real that is changing. But by your own admission, there is nothing real, so nothing exists in reality that can change. Therefore, change too is an illusion.

The only thing you are left with is Nothing, but even you are Nothing, and you know this via Pure Consciousness, the only true Reality.

Real forces and real interactions bring about that change which is also real. Something which appears "living" is an illusion brought about by the complexity of interactions taking place. Real change occurs to that seemingly "living" thing and eventually it takes on the subsequent illusion of being "dead". Matter might interact in a complex or less complex manner giving the illusion of life or death, but in reality there is no such thing as alive or dead matter. It is interactive. Pure Consciousness is not a reality of any sort the way I see it.

 

[godnotgod]

Real forces and real interactions bring about that change which is also real.
Something which appears "living" is an illusion brought about by the complexity of interactions taking place. Real change occurs to that seemingly "living" thing and eventually it takes on the subsequent illusion of being "dead". Matter might interact in a complex or less complex manner giving the illusion of life or death, but in reality there is no such thing as alive or dead matter. It is interactive. Pure Consciousness is not a reality of any sort the way I see it.

I see. Real changes are happening to something that only appears 'living'. Why not just say that the entire process is illusory? If you are dreaming and going through changes in the dream, those changes are also part of the dream. When you awaken, you see that it was ALL just a dream. It never happened. Only your awakened consciousness is real. The rest is fiction.

 

[godnotgod]

No, it has not. It does not understand 'absolute nothing'. It does not know how energy acquires mass. Quantum Physics does not explain that. I will wait.

While you're waiting for the decision of the Shadow Makers, you might like to go outside the Cave and take a look at the Sun. I promise not to tell.

No. The rope is not a snake. The mass is virtual. Nothing exists.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Thanks for the suggestion. By your interpretation, there is no rope too. But I will wait. At the moment people are for and against it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation

 

[godnotgod]

Thanks for the suggestion. By your interpretation, there is no rope too. But I will wait. At the mopment people are for and against it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation

You still don't understand the metaphor: The rope is metaphor for Brahman; the snake is metaphor for Universe. That is where the metaphor ends, because it is limited. Understand that, while the snake vanishes upon detection of it's illusory nature, The Universe does not vanish upon detection of it's illusory nature. As I previously mentioned, the snake illusion is on a lower level of consciousness than that of the illusion of the material Universe. On the level of conditioned awareness, the rope is real, and the snake is illusory. On the level of unconditioned awareness (ie awakened consciousness), The Universe is illusory and only Brahman is real. Until awakening (ie transcendence) occurs, The Universe continues to seem real and Brahman remains hidden.

Science is one kind of conditioned view that keeps Brahman hidden.

Awakening is not a matter of factual knowledge; it is a matter of seeing things as they are, and seeing things as they are can only occur in this eternal Present Moment. If you are going to hunker down to wait for something, you will miss seeing entirely.

Look! The Moon!

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. the rope is real, ..

That is not Many-World Interpretation. You repeatedly said that nothiong is real. Now you are on the other side of the divide.

 

[godnotgod]

That is not Many-World Interpretation. You repeatedly said that nothiong is real. Now you are on the other side of the divide.

Aupmanyav, you are still misunderstanding:

When you are asleep, dreaming, the character and action in the dream are real to you. When you awaken, you realize it was just a dream and the character/action were not real. Dream-sleep is the Second Level of Consciousness.

The Third Level of Consciousness is Identification, or Waking Sleep, in which you only think yourself awake, but are still dreaming. On this level, the rope is real and the snake is illusory. IOW, the 'material' Universe, of which the rope is part, is real.

When you awaken onto the Fourth Level of Consciousness, that of Self-Transcendence, or Self-Remembering, which is true awakening, the material world and the character you play in its drama are seen as not real. From this POV, you see the world as the play of lila and maya. From here, only Brahman is real; only Pure Consciousness is real. Maya, The Universe, is none other than The Absolute. Nothing save Brahman is real. Brahman is not a material something. Out of this immaterial Nothing comes Everything. That this happens is not a problem since Everything is not real. Only if it is real is it a problem, both for the theist and the scientist, because then the original material out of which The Universe emerged must be accounted for. If The Universe is an illusion, then there is no such original material. Even the Higgs boson is virtual. The material Universe is just a projection of immaterial Brahman, and it appears that is exactly what Quantum Physics has found: the immaterial Unified Field is creating the appearance of the material atom via fluctuations, an appearance science labels as having virtual mass.

Only on the Third Level of Consciousness is the rope real, just as only on the Second Level of Consciousness (dream-sleep) is 'Lord Aupmanav The Dragon Slayer' real.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Nothing save Brahman is real. Brahman is not a material something. Out of this immaterial Nothing comes Everything.

Godnotgod, 'non-material' does not mean 'nothing'. Gravity is non-material, electricity is non-material, magnetism is non-material. In short, energy may appear as non-material, but it does not mean that it is nothing. Brahman, as 'Advaita' goes, can be material or non-material; but as far as present knowledge goes, it is not 'nothing'. That is why I wait. Let science decide. Sitting here on my chair before a computer and knowing hardly of any Maths and Physics, I will not jump to a conclusion.

 

[idav]

Fascinating that those who claim to cherish science, cannot accept the new paradigm of Quanum Physics, and tenaciously cling to the old materialist paradigm for dear life, but the old paradigm has been dead for over 30 years! Amazing!

Cause QM doesn't work like the mystics want it to. QM is being used in quantum computing in an actual real way, it doesn't get more material than that.

 

[Runewolf1973]

I see. Real changes are happening to something that only appears 'living'. Why not just say that the entire process is illusory? If you are dreaming and going through changes in the dream, those changes are also part of the dream. When you awaken, you see that it was ALL just a dream. It never happened. Only your awakened consciousness is real. The rest is fiction.

If something is illusory, then there must be a stimuli which is creating the illusory effect. An illusion is a distortion of the senses in the presence of a stimuli. Dreams are often times affected by external stimuli...sounds, smells, physical contact with objects...etc. If all is nothingness, then there is no stimuli and therefore can be no illusion. Maya means illusion as far as I am aware, it doesn't mean the same as nonexistent or nothingness

 

[atanu]

While you're waiting for the decision of the Shadow Makers, you might like to go outside the Cave and take a look at the Sun. I promise not to tell.

No. The rope is not a snake. The mass is virtual. Nothing exists.

You don't too? Then how we take you seriously?

OTOH some have experienced:

The whole universe is the syllable Om. Following is the exposition of Om. Everything that was, is, or will be is, in truth Om. All else which transcends time, space, and causation is also Om.

 

[atanu]

Semantics. There is nothing virtual about reality, thats why it would be called reality.

According to you the brain can tap into the ultimate reality so why would you say our senses can't be trusted? You only trust good feelings from your solar plexus? The argument of solipsism is self defeating.

You doggedly stick to your semantics, applying the waking state consciousness parameters to consciousness that is devoid of state (as an approximate example imagine applying only the solid-ice state parameters to describe water).

How can the senses sense the infinite? Brain itself is a 3D creation of mind-senses in the waking consciousness. It does not exist in dream and sleep consciousnesses. And certainly not in the fourth seer consciousness.

Only when the mind does not move but awareness is keen, the infinite self is experienced.

 

[idav]

You doggedly stick to your semantics, applying the waking state consciousness parameters to consciousness that is devoid of state (as an approximate example imagine applying only the solid-ice state parameters to describe water).

How can the senses sense the infinite? Brain itself is a 3D creation of mind-senses in the waking consciousness. It does not exist in dream and sleep consciousnesses. And certainly not in the fourth seer consciousness.

Only when the mind does not move but awareness is keen, the infinite self is experienced.

Frankly this dream sleep consciousness has not been proven, nor is there any evidence to suggest it taps into the absolute. I read the art of dreaming but that kind of stuff is fictional.
Boy I tell you, I love this ambiguous language you all use.
Here is some from System of a Down.

Now somewhere between the sacred silence
Sacred silence and sleep
Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep
Disorder, disorder, disorder

 

[atanu]

Frankly this dream sleep consciousness has not been proven, ....

Hey rAma.

 

[idav]

Hey rAma.

Whats that mean? Are you familiar with the book The Art of Dreaming?

 

[atanu]

Whats that mean? Are you familiar with the book The Art of Dreaming?

Is there any possibility that you (or Aup) to pause and consider whether a waking state description of dream or sleep states constitutes a true description of the dream or sleep state consciousnesses?

 

[idav]

Is there any possibility that you (or Aup) to pause and consider whether a waking state description of dream or sleep states constitutes a true description of the dream or sleep state consciousnesses?

Sure I've considered it, thats what that whole book is about that I mentioned and goes into great detail. I even finished the book front to back.

I don't doubt the sleep states allow us to tap into a whole lot more than we can in a waking state, the question is if it allows us to tap into some sort of absolute which I have not seen evidence to suggest. Sure it may seem like it cause we know a heck of a lot more in dreams, I even think it is a way for us to predict the future but that is all it is, a prediction, not a psychic foretelling.

 

[godnotgod]

Cause QM doesn't work like the mystics want it to. QM is being used in quantum computing in an actual real way, it doesn't get more material than that.

What? Mystics have no preferences regarding QM. They are saying the same thing they have said for thousands of years, long before QM was developed.

It sounds to me that YOU want QM to be material, when it says this world is virtual and possibility only.

 

[atanu]

Sure I've considered it, thats what that whole book is about that I mentioned and goes into great detail. I even finished the book front to back.

I don't doubt the sleep states allow us to tap into a whole lot more than we can in a waking state, the question is if it allows us to tap into some sort of absolute which I have not seen evidence to suggest. Sure it may seem like it cause we know a heck of a lot more in dreams, I even think it is a way for us to predict the future but that is all it is, a prediction, not a psychic foretelling.

We are simply not talking of same subject. I retire, but before that I mention that I am not talking of 'knowing lot more'. I am talking of knowing the self that is witness of sleep, dream, and waking state consciousnesses.