If God created the universe, who created God?

[farouk]

The word that's translated into "atom" also could mean "small ant" according to one translation. So God knows the weight of a small ant is an alternative.

I assume that the phrase "small ant" was a phrase used at that time to mean "the smallest thing". And the translators understood that and translated it to "atom" based on its meaning rather than its literal word.

The word is not "atom" in the original language, is it?

Here's the transliteration of the sura:
"Wama takoonu fee sha/nin wamatatloo minhu min qur-anin wala taAAmaloona minAAamalin illa kunna AAalaykum shuhoodan ithtufeedoona feehi wama yaAAzubu AAan rabbika minmithqali tharratin fee al-ardi walafee assama-i wala asghara min thalikawala akbara illa fee kitabin mubeen"
The word "atom" should show up somewhere there if that was the original word.

The sura actually made more sense when I had it translated to Swedish:
"Inte ens [vad som motsvarar] ett stoftkorns vikt, på jorden eller i himlen, är dolt för din Herre och ingenting finns, varken mindre eller större än detta, som inte [är inskrivet] i [Guds] öppna bok."

As you can see, it's not atom but "neither smaller nor larger than this" is the phrase that's translated to "atom" in English.

Therefore, the answer is, the Qur'an doesn't say anything about atoms or smaller than atoms. The translators, however, knew about atoms and used it for the translation.

Peace
Ouroboros
The moment you assume then it means you not sure and if you not sure then simply means that your opinions are based on guess word.So far from your opinion it very obvious that you lack understanding of the Quranic launguage.
There is a Sura in the Quraan called Sura An-Naml which means The Ant.Now look at your transliteration you quoted and see for yourself if the word naml is there.I don't see it.
Here's the transliteration of the sura:
"Wama takoonu fee sha/nin wamatatloo minhu min qur-anin wala taAAmaloona minAAamalin illa kunna AAalaykum shuhoodan ithtufeedoona feehi wama yaAAzubu AAan rabbika minmithqali tharratin fee al-ardi walafee assama-i wala asghara min thalikawala akbara illa fee kitabin mubeen"

The word for atom is dharra but the word tharra is mentioned here because it is not meant by the atom but it means the small dust particle which you can see in a dark room when light penetrates from a hole.

Let me show you more examples of the Quraan says.
The Noble quraan 36:36
"Glory to Allah, Who created in pairs all things that the earth produces, as well as their own (human) kind and (other) things of which they have no knowledge".
The above is a beautiful verse which is my favourite because it is from the heart of the Quraan.Everything which is in the Universe were created in pairs. Even atoms are in pairs. Same goes to smaller division of atoms, electrons, protons, quarks etc all were created in pairs. This is what physicists call as 'matter and anti matter'.
I know it may sounds unbelievable to most people but it is the truth. Even an electron is in pair.You have a positive and a negative electron.

Note there is much,much more that i can quote from the Noble Quraan but if you already made up your mind in believing in falsehood and you want to have an argumental debate with a closed mind then what is the sense in me breaking my head.Let me finish with a verse from the Noble Quraan 2:256
"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things".
Peace
Farouk

 

[McBell]

Peace
Ouroboros
The moment you assume then it means you not sure and if you not sure then simply means that your opinions are based on guess word.So far from your opinion it very obvious that you lack understanding of the Quranic launguage.
There is a Sura in the Quraan called Sura An-Naml which means The Ant.Now look at your transliteration you quoted and see for yourself if the word naml is there.I don't see it.
Here's the transliteration of the sura:
"Wama takoonu fee sha/nin wamatatloo minhu min qur-anin wala taAAmaloona minAAamalin illa kunna AAalaykum shuhoodan ithtufeedoona feehi wama yaAAzubu AAan rabbika minmithqali tharratin fee al-ardi walafee assama-i wala asghara min thalikawala akbara illa fee kitabin mubeen"

The word for atom is dharra but the word tharra is mentioned here because it is not meant by the atom but it means the small dust particle which you can see in a dark room when light penetrates from a hole.

Let me show you more examples of the Quraan says.
The Noble quraan 36:36
"Glory to Allah, Who created in pairs all things that the earth produces, as well as their own (human) kind and (other) things of which they have no knowledge".
The above is a beautiful verse which is my favourite because it is from the heart of the Quraan.Everything which is in the Universe were created in pairs. Even atoms are in pairs. Same goes to smaller division of atoms, electrons, protons, quarks etc all were created in pairs. This is what physicists call as 'matter and anti matter'.
I know it may sounds unbelievable to most people but it is the truth. Even an electron is in pair.You have a positive and a negative electron.

Note there is much,much more that i can quote from the Noble Quraan but if you already made up your mind in believing in falsehood and you want to have an argumental debate with a closed mind then what is the sense in me breaking my head.Let me finish with a verse from the Noble Quraan 2:256
"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things".
Peace
Farouk

Everything is in pairs except your god...
Except your prophet...

 

[BSM1]

We can only describe, define, experience, etc God to the limits of our mental perceptions. Therefore I have said that God is not only the Known and the Unknown, God is also the Knowing and the Not Knowing. The creation of any deity has to come from the Not Knowing. This means our best guess concerning God is just that--a guess. Even if we could truly know God we still we be hard put to convey that knowing to others. It's like trying to describe the color red to a person blind from birth. The blind just has to take it on faith that 'red' exists. That's what we have to do if we want to believe in any God.

 

[ArtieE]

The word for atom is dharra but the word tharra is mentioned here because it is not meant by the atom but it means the small dust particle which you can see in a dark room when light penetrates from a hole.

Edward Lane’s Arabic-English Lexicon first published in 1863-93 doesn't have the word atom in it and the Qu'ran doesn't mention atoms. It just talks about ants. Does the Qur'an speak about Atoms? In the Qu'ran they just used ants as a metaphor for "smallest thing" and in certain translations "atom" was used as a metaphor for "smallest thing" instead. Simple as that.

 

[ArtieE]

"Glory to Allah, Who created in pairs all things that the earth produces, as well as their own (human) kind and (other) things of which they have no knowledge".
The above is a beautiful verse which is my favourite because it is from the heart of the Quraan.Everything which is in the Universe were created in pairs.

Of course not. Bacteria, tapeworms, corals and most plants reproduce asexually and have never existed in pairs.

 

[Ouroboros]

The word for atom is dharra but the word tharra is mentioned here because it is not meant by the atom but it means the small dust particle which you can see in a dark room when light penetrates from a hole.

Uhm... dharra isn't used, but tharra is... therefore dharra is the word that was meant to be used? It doesn't make sense.

Obviously the word dharra is a newer word that was picked to illustrate atoms because of its close relationship with tharra. The Qur'an says tharra, not dharra, so your argument is so completely invalid that it's beyond comprehension or even worth the energy of rebuttal.

I'm going to ignore you from now on. This is beyond ridiculous.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

If God created the universe, who created God?

Pantheism. The universe/multiverse requires no outside creator ("outside" in a multiverse, is a pretty much useless concept). It just is.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Pantheism. The universe/multiverse requires no outside creator ...

You pretend to know so much with so much certainty. It must be comforting.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You pretend to know so much with so much certainty. It must be comforting.

I know enough to know that the creator deity concept is inherently flawed. If it was ever "proven" that there was an intelligent entity that created this physical universe, I would be a Gnostic and fight against it.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I know enough to know that the creator deity concept is inherently flawed.

So you believe.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

So you believe.

Well, duh. That's where my personal studies have led me to believe.

 

[farouk]

Edward Lane’s Arabic-English Lexicon first published in 1863-93 doesn't have the word atom in it and the Qu'ran doesn't mention atoms. It just talks about ants. Does the Qur'an speak about Atoms? In the Qu'ran they just used ants as a metaphor for "smallest thing" and in certain translations "atom" was used as a metaphor for "smallest thing" instead. Simple as that.

Peace
Firstly
Translators are humans and as such are not perfect so they do make mistakes in their translation.Edward Lane made an error in the 18th century and even 20th century translators do make errors as well and i will prove that to you.
Secondly
The word for atom in arabic is dharra but the word used in the verse is tharratin which simply means an object smaller than an atom.The word for ant in arabic is Naml hence we can see that tharratin and naml are completely different words and hence cannot be the same.
Lets look at the verse in english.

Transliteration
"Wama takoonu fee sha/nin wamatatloo minhu min qur-anin wala taAAmaloona minAAamalin illa kunna AAalaykum shuhoodan ithtufeedoona feehi wama yaAAzubu AAan rabbika minmithqali tharratin fee al-ardi walafee assama-i wala asghara min thalikawala akbara illa fee kitabin mubeen"​

English Translation
Yusuf Ali
"In whatever business thou mayest be, and whatever portion thou mayest be reciting from the Qur'an,- and whatever deed ye (mankind) may be doing,- We are witnesses thereof when ye are deeply engrossed therein. Nor is hidden from thy Lord (so much as) the weight of an atom on the earth or in heaven. And not the least and not the greatest of these things but are recorded in a clear record."

Pickthall
"And thou (Muhammad) art not occupied with any business and thou recitest not a Lecture from this (Scripture), and ye (mankind) perform no act, but We are Witness of you when ye are engaged therein. And not an atom's weight in the earth or in the sky escapeth your Lord, nor what is less than that or greater than that, but it is (written) in a clear Book." ​

Note both translators are from the 20th century and both give the same meaning for the word tharratin as atom.If we study the above verse carefully we can quite clearly see it calls for an object,that means a noun,that is light in weight and miniature(small in size).An ant and a quirk both fit the description and there is no doubt about it but which is more lighter an ant or a quirk.Futher the verse says" on earth or in heaven"(sky).The question is do you get ants in the sky or do you get quark in the sky?Its simple logic that tells you that the translators that used ant did error.
Finally note Pickthall translates the word tharratin in the above verse as atom but in another verse(below) he errors because the same word tharratin is used and he translates it as ant.
Transliteration.
"Inna Allaha la yathlimumithqala tharratin wa-in taku hasanatan yudaAAifhawayu/ti min ladunhu ajran AAatheema"​

English translation.
"Surely Allah does not do injustice to the weight of an atom, and if it is a good deed He multiplies it and gives from Himself a great reward."
Pickthall
"Lo! Allah wrongeth not even of the weight of an ant; and if there is a good deed, He will double it and will give (the doer) from His presence an immense reward."

Now lets look at another verse and see how Pickthall translates it again as an atom.

Transliteration
"Waqala allatheena kafaroo lata/teena assaAAatu qul bala warabbeelata/tiyannakum AAalimi alghaybi la yaAAzubu AAanhumithqalu tharratin fee assamawatiwala fee al-ardi wala asgharu min thalikawala akbaru illa fee kitabin mubeen."​

Pickthall

"Those who disbelieve say: The Hour will never come unto us. Say: Nay, by my Lord, but it is coming unto you surely. (He is) the Knower of the Unseen. Not an atom's weight, or less than that or greater, escapeth Him in the heavens or in the earth, but it is in a clear Record,"​

​

It is very evident that from the above verses that translators,as human,do make errors.The question is why does Pickthall mistranslates the word tharratin?The answer is to this question is quite clear.Whenever the words "on earth or on heaven(sky)" is used in the verse he translates it as atom and whenever no mention of earth and heaven is used he translates it as ant.Thus we can logically see why translators mistranslated the word tharratin as ant.Ant can be found on earth and not in the sky but an object much smaller than an atom (quark) can be found in both earth and in the sky.
Peace
Farouk

 

[desideraht]

Am I the only atheist reading this thinking all of the theistic answers are non-sequiturs?

And this is why I'm an atheist and not a theist. I cannot grasp what comes off to me as village idiot logic. Harsh, but true.

 

[ArtieE]

The word for atom in arabic is dharra but the word used in the verse is tharratin which simply means an object smaller than an atom.The word for ant in arabic is Naml hence we can see that tharratin and naml are completely different words and hence cannot be the same.

So if tharratin means an object smaller than an atom then both Yusuf Ali and Pickthall mistranslates tharratin since they say "the weight of an atom" and "not an atom's weight" when they should have written "the weight of the object smaller than an atom" and "not the weight of the object smaller than an atom".

And here we have two more translators, Shakir and Khalifa, who don't know that tharratin means an object smaller than an atom.

"099.007
Faman yaAAmal mithqala tharratin khayran yarahu
YUSUFALI: Then shall anyone who has done an atom's weight of good, see it!
PICKTHAL: And whoso doeth good an atom's weight will see it then,
SHAKIR: So. he who has done an atom's weight of good shall see it
KHALIFA: Whoever does an atom's weight of good will see it.

099.008
Waman yaAAmal mithqala tharratin sharran yarahu
YUSUFALI: And anyone who has done an atom's weight of evil, shall see it.
PICKTHAL: And whoso doeth ill an atom's weight will see it then.
SHAKIR: And he who has done an atom's weight of evil shall see it.
KHALIFA: And whoever does an atom's weight of evil will see it."

Four Translations of the Quran - Sura 99

And classical commentaries don't know that tharratin means an object smaller than an atom.

Sura 10:61

At-Tabari

{... mithqala tharratin} means: the weight of a tiny ant ... and Tharrah is a singular for Tharr. And Tharr: are the small ants ...

Al Jalalayn

{tharratin} the smallest ant ...

Sura 34:3

Al-Jalalayn

{tharratin} the smallest ant

Az-Zamakhshari

{the weight of tharratin} the weight of the least ant

Does the Qur'an speak about Atoms?

And now I think we have pretty conclusively established that tharratin does not mean "an object smaller than an atom" but the smallest and least ant.

 

[Sir Doom]

The previous universe?

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

No, because-



You may fool yourself into thinking "God did it" has any explanatory power, but that's it.

enaidealukal: keeps getting knocked down, but keeps getting back up, begging for more.

 

[farouk]

So if tharratin means an object smaller than an atom then both Yusuf Ali and Pickthall mistranslates tharratin since they say "the weight of an atom" and "not an atom's weight" when they should have written "the weight of the object smaller than an atom" and "not the weight of the object smaller than an atom".

And here we have two more translators, Shakir and Khalifa, who don't know that tharratin means an object smaller than an atom.

"099.007
Faman yaAAmal mithqala tharratin khayran yarahu
YUSUFALI: Then shall anyone who has done an atom's weight of good, see it!
PICKTHAL: And whoso doeth good an atom's weight will see it then,
SHAKIR: So. he who has done an atom's weight of good shall see it
KHALIFA: Whoever does an atom's weight of good will see it.

099.008
Waman yaAAmal mithqala tharratin sharran yarahu
YUSUFALI: And anyone who has done an atom's weight of evil, shall see it.
PICKTHAL: And whoso doeth ill an atom's weight will see it then.
SHAKIR: And he who has done an atom's weight of evil shall see it.
KHALIFA: And whoever does an atom's weight of evil will see it."

Four Translations of the Quran - Sura 99

And classical commentaries don't know that tharratin means an object smaller than an atom.

Sura 10:61

At-Tabari

{... mithqala tharratin} means: the weight of a tiny ant ... and Tharrah is a singular for Tharr. And Tharr: are the small ants ...

Al Jalalayn

{tharratin} the smallest ant ...

Sura 34:3

Al-Jalalayn

{tharratin} the smallest ant

Az-Zamakhshari

{the weight of tharratin} the weight of the least ant

Does the Qur'an speak about Atoms?

And now I think we have pretty conclusively established that tharratin does not mean "an object smaller than an atom" but the smallest and least ant.

Peace
Your conclusive evidence is based on lies.
Al-Jalalayn tafsir confirms that you lie.
Verse 34:3
"And those who disbelieve say, ‘The Hour, the Resurrection, will never come to us’. Say, to them: ‘Yes indeed, by my Lord, it shall come to you — [by] the Knower of the Unseen (read ‘ālimi’l-ghaybi as an adjectival qualification [of wa-rabbī, ‘by my Lord’], or read ‘ālimu’l-ghaybi, as the predicate of a [missing] subject [such as huwa, ‘He is’]; or read ‘allāmi’l-ghaybi). Not [even] the weight of an atom escapes, is hidden [from], Him in the heavens or in the earth, nor [is there] anything smaller than that or greater, but it is in a Manifest Book, namely, the Preserved Tablet (al-lawh al-mahfūz),"

Now back up your lie or retract your false statement.
Peace
farouk

 

[ArtieE]

Peace
Your conclusive evidence is based on lies.
Al-Jalalayn tafsir confirms that you lie.
Verse 34:3
"And those who disbelieve say, ‘The Hour, the Resurrection, will never come to us’. Say, to them: ‘Yes indeed, by my Lord, it shall come to you — [by] the Knower of the Unseen (read ‘ālimi’l-ghaybi as an adjectival qualification [of wa-rabbī, ‘by my Lord’], or read ‘ālimu’l-ghaybi, as the predicate of a [missing] subject [such as huwa, ‘He is’]; or read ‘allāmi’l-ghaybi). Not [even] the weight of an atom escapes, is hidden [from], Him in the heavens or in the earth, nor [is there] anything smaller than that or greater, but it is in a Manifest Book, namely, the Preserved Tablet (al-lawh al-mahfūz),"

Now back up your lie or retract your false statement.
Peace
farouk

You are contradicting yourself. You said and I quote: "the word used in the verse is tharratin which simply means an object smaller than an atom". But according to your own quote above tharratin means "atom" and not "an object smaller than an atom". It says "the weight of an atom" not "the weight of an object smaller than an atom".

Tharratin originally means "the smallest and least ant" as explained by three classical commentaries unless you would like to claim that those who wrote those commentaries are all liars?

 

[farouk]

You are contradicting yourself. You said and I quote: "the word used in the verse is tharratin which simply means an object smaller than an atom". But according to your own quote above tharratin means "atom" and not "an object smaller than an atom". It says "the weight of an atom" not "the weight of an object smaller than an atom".

Tharratin originally means "the smallest and least ant" as explained by three classical commentaries unless you would like to claim that those who wrote those commentaries are all liars?

Peace
Now lets not run away from my question.We will discuss my contradiction later.
Back up your lies or retract those false statements.
You have made a claim that according to Al Jalalayn tharratin means the smallest ant ...now back it up.
I am still checking on your other statement as well.
If you cannot back it up then it simply means you are speaking lies.
So back up your false claims.
Peace
Farouk

 

[ArtieE]

Peace
Now lets not run away from my question.We will discuss my contradiction later.

You said and I quote: "the word used in the verse is tharratin which simply means an object smaller than an atom". Then you quote a verse where it says "the weight of an atom" and not "the weight of an object smaller than an atom". Why do you contradict yourself?

You have made a claim that according to Al Jalalayn tharratin means the smallest ant ...now back it up.

Go to this link Does the Qur'an speak about Atoms? and simply read and understand.