If God created the universe, who created God?

[Enai de a lukal]

enaidealukal: keeps getting knocked down, but keeps getting back up, begging for more.

Lol... Alot of arrogance coming from a guy who doesn't even understand the arguments he advances. Given that you're woefully out of your depth on virtually every topic you comment on, your assessment of whether you have "knocked me down" is pretty worthless.

Also, ironic you should claim this after you've basically tucked tail and run from every exchange I've engaged you in on this board. The power of delusion, eh?

 

[Enai de a lukal]

And let's also note that in each case you beat your hasty retreat after I've enumerated various well-recognized criticisms and refutations the various unsound arguments for the existence of God you've offered- likely because you're not familiar enough with the subject matter to actually defend them... You're like a parrot, merely repeating things you've heard others say, lacking the ability to formulate or express any of your own ideas regarding the subjects.

 

[farouk]

Peace
ArtieE
Does the Qur'an speak about Atoms?

Your above source is nothing more than an anti-Islamic site that is suffering from Islamophobia.The articles are full of trash.This site claims to be a Christian site and is full of lies and makes me wonder if it is really is a Christian site.They have stooped to the depths of animalism with their lies in total desperation.Please note if you are to use such sources for your arguments then make sure you do your own research before commiting yourself because all they did was fool you in making an idiot of yourself.Now let me prove their lies to you.
Firstly they quoted names of At-Tabari,Al Qurtubi,Al-Baydawi,Al Jalalayn and Az-Zamakhshari and non...non..of them ever translated the Quraan in English.This is a lie on its own.They did translate the Noble Quraan in other launguages but definately not English.
Secondly next to each of their names they have given their arabic source.Click on the arabic source and it will take you to a site called Altafsir.com.In this site you will only find the tafsir of Al-Jalalayn and non of the others.
Thirdly the tafsir of verse 34:3 is as follows:
And those who disbelieve say, ‘The Hour, the Resurrection, will never come to us’. Say, to them: ‘Yes indeed, by my Lord, it shall come to you — [by] the Knower of the Unseen (read ‘ālimi’l-ghaybi as an adjectival qualification [of wa-rabbī, ‘by my Lord’], or read ‘ālimu’l-ghaybi, as the predicate of a [missing] subject [such as huwa, ‘He is’]; or read ‘allāmi’l-ghaybi). Not [even] the weight of an atom escapes, is hidden [from], Him in the heavens or in the earth, nor [is there] anything smaller than that or greater, but it is in a Manifest Book, namely, the Preserved Tablet (al-lawh al-mahfūz),

I don't see any reference to Ant.This is clear proof that this site objective is to harm Islam via lies.
PS so far contradiction is concerned i will post in next few days.
Peace
Farouk

 

[Twig pentagram]

If God created the universe, who created God?

The Universe. :run:

 

[ArtieE]

Firstly they quoted names of At-Tabari,Al Qurtubi,Al-Baydawi,Al Jalalayn and Az-Zamakhshari and non...non..of them ever translated the Quraan in English.This is a lie on its own.

Where do they say they translated the Quraan in English? It says "All of the above commentaries (translated by Mutee’a Al-Fadi directly from the Arabic online editions)".

Secondly next to each of their names they have given their arabic source.Click on the arabic source and it will take you to a site called Altafsir.com.In this site you will only find the tafsir of Al-Jalalayn and non of the others.

This I will check.

Thirdly the tafsir of verse 34:3 is as follows:
And those who disbelieve say, ‘The Hour, the Resurrection, will never come to us’. Say, to them: ‘Yes indeed, by my Lord, it shall come to you — [by] the Knower of the Unseen (read ‘ālimi’l-ghaybi as an adjectival qualification [of wa-rabbī, ‘by my Lord’], or read ‘ālimu’l-ghaybi, as the predicate of a [missing] subject [such as huwa, ‘He is’]; or read ‘allāmi’l-ghaybi). Not [even] the weight of an atom escapes, is hidden [from], Him in the heavens or in the earth, nor [is there] anything smaller than that or greater, but it is in a Manifest Book, namely, the Preserved Tablet (al-lawh al-mahfūz),

I don't see any reference to Ant.

The tafsir of verse 4:40 Al-Jalalayn is as follows:
Surely God shall not wrong, anyone, so much as the weight of an atom, [the weight of] the smallest ant, by diminishing thereby a person’s good deeds or increase thereby his evil deeds; and if it, the atom, be a good deed (in taku hasanatan, ‘if it be a good deed’, is also read in taku hasanatun, in which case the kāna [construction] is [syntactically] complete), from a believer, He will double it (yudā‘ifuhā, also read yuda‘‘ifuh&#257, from ten times up to more than seven hundred times, and give from Himself, in addition to the doubling, a great wage, that no one can estimate.

Is this a mistranslation or does it say that the weight of an atom and the weight of the smallest ant is the same?

 

[farouk]

Peace
ArtieE
Quote
Where do they say they translated the Quraan in English? It says "All of the above commentaries (translated by Mutee’a Al-Fadi directly from the Arabic online editions)".
Who is Al Fadi? A convert to Christianity who mistranslates the works of scholars to create mischief.Remember non of those scholars ever translated the Noble Quraan into English.
Quote
The tafsir of verse 4:40 Al-Jalalayn is as follows:
Surely God shall not wrong, anyone, so much as the weight of an atom, [the weight of] the smallest ant, by diminishing thereby a person’s good deeds or increase thereby his evil deeds; and if it, the atom, be a good deed (in taku hasanatan, ‘if it be a good deed’, is also read in taku hasanatun, in which case the kāna [construction] is [syntactically] complete), from a believer, He will double it (yudā‘ifuhā, also read yuda‘‘ifuh&#257, from ten times up to more than seven hundred times, and give from Himself, in addition to the doubling, a great wage, that no one can estimate.
is this a mistranslation or does it say that the weight of an atom and the weight of the smallest ant is the same?
Firstly your link never mentions about this verse 4:40.
Secondly i already told you Al-Jalalayn as a scholar never translated any of his works in English.So whoever translated this verse is simply mistranslating and using his name.
Peace
Farouk

 

[farouk]

Peace
ArtieE
Lets go back to what you call my contradiction.
Previously i did mention things that i am now going to repeat.
For the ignorant.
The word that was revealed to Prophet Muhammad(PBBUH) was "tharratin".This word was revealed for more than +1400 years and this same word is in present day Arabic Noble Quraan.The words of God in the Noble Quraan has never changed and will never ever change till the day of reckoning.This debate is not disputing the Noble Quraan but simply the translation of the arabic word "tharratin" into English.
The arabic word "dharra" means atom.The arabic word "namlah" means tiny ant.Now which word is close to "tharratin".If one looks closely to the word "tharratin" then tharra and dharra looks very related.Note dharra ia an atom but the word tharra cannot mean an atom but is very closely related to the word atom.
At the time when this word "tharratin"was revealed no one ever enquired from Prophet Muhammad(PBBUH) as regards its meaning because every one knew it refers to an object that is minute and small like a speck of dust.If one studys the tafsirs of Quraan after revelation the word "tharratin" was meant as a speck of dust.What is a speck of dust?Is it not an atom.Yes it is an atom and the Arabs knew about atoms because it was invented well before the verse was revealed.Note the scholars of tafsirs of Quraan never said its an atom because the arabic word that was revealed was "tharratin" and not "dharra".Hence they refered "tharratin" as a speck of dust.
Now lets look at the first translators of the Noble Quraan into English.
The earliest known translation of the Quraan in any European language was the Latin works by Robert Ketton in the year 1143.As Latin was the language of the church it never sought to question what would now be regarded as blatant inaccuracies in this translation which remained the only one until 1649 when the first English language translation was done by Alexander Ross, chaplain to King Charles I, who translated it from French.In 1734 George Sale produced the first translation of the Quraan direct from Arabic into English but reflecting his missionary stance. Since then, there have been English translations by the clergyman John Rodwell in 1861 and E H Palmer in 1880 and both showing in their works a number of mistakes of mistranslation and misinterpretation, which brings into question their primary aim. Followed by Richard Belin in 1937 and Arthur John arberry in the 1950s.Keep in mind that all the these translators(mischief makers) were non believers of the Islamic faith.Now who do you blame Islamic scholars for their mistranslations or mischief makers.
Note translation of the Noble Quraan has always been a problematic and difficult issue in Islamic theology.Since we revere the Noble Quraan as miraculous and inimitable it is my opinion that the Quraanic text cannot be reproduced in another language without mistranslations.As we can see how mischief makers translated the word "tharratin" as an ant and we are well aware that the verse calls for an object on earth and in heaven(sky).
Note there is absolutely nothing wrong in re-intepreting the mistranslated words in the English Quraan because it will give a more accurate translation to the arabic word "tharratin".
Finally
A more accurate translation for the arabic word "tharratin" would be a speck of dust.
A speck of dust which is found on earth and heaven(sky) actually refers to a divisibility of an atom.We cannot even call it a quark because very soon a quark will also be divisible.
Peace
Farouk

 

[ArtieE]

The arabic word "dharra" means atom.

These arabs seem to think that it means "speck of dust" and not atom otherwise they would obviously have written atom. "Allah starts the Surah with something BIG; the Earth. And ends it with the smallest thing imaginable; the Dharrah (speck of dust)." Surah Zalzala [99] Maybe you should contact them and tell these arabs how wrong they are when they think the arabic word dharra means speck of dust and not atom? Oh, I forgot. They don't know what they are talking about either, right? Except that if you go to the About link on the same page they say "This then allows the readers to understand the true miraculous nature of the Qur’an, and realise how every single word chosen in it is perfect, and irreplacable." So don't replace "speck of dust" with "atom".

"Dharra – smallest thing imaginable. To the arabs, the smallest thing imaginable was the ant’s egg, and they called it dharra. We might describe dharra as an atom or speck in the english language. Dharra – the light dust you see floating in the air when the sun is shining – through the window – on a sunny day. Each of these dust particles is a dharra. This signifies the smallest and most lightest imaginable thing being a dharra of good or evil which will be seen on that Day."

 

[farouk]

These arabs seem to think that it means "speck of dust" and not atom otherwise they would obviously have written atom. "Allah starts the Surah with something BIG; the Earth. And ends it with the smallest thing imaginable; the Dharrah (speck of dust)." Surah Zalzala [99] Maybe you should contact them and tell these arabs how wrong they are when they think the arabic word dharra means speck of dust and not atom? Oh, I forgot. They don't know what they are talking about either, right? Except that if you go to the About link on the same page they say "This then allows the readers to understand the true miraculous nature of the Qur’an, and realise how every single word chosen in it is perfect, and irreplacable." So don't replace "speck of dust" with "atom".

Peace
ArtieE
You are totally confused.You must read what you write before posting.No where does the word "dharrah" appear in the Noble Quraan.
Verse 99 reads
"Itha zulzilati al-ardu zilzalaha
Waakhrajati al-ardu athqalaha
Waqala al-insanu ma laha
Yawma-ithin tuhaddithu akhbaraha
Bi-anna rabbaka awha laha
Yawma-ithin yasduru annasuashtatan liyuraw aAAmalahum
Faman yaAAmal mithqala tharratinkhayran yarah
Waman yaAAmal mithqala tharratinsharran yarah"

It seems you have a liking of going into hoax sites.
"dharra" means an atom.
"tharratin" means a speck of dust that is smaller than an atom.
The bottom line is there is not a single word in the English dictionary that can justify the translation of the arabic word "tharratin".
Any word you use must be a divisible to the finest of an atom that must be found on earth and in heaven(sky).
If your intellectual logic tells you that an ant can be found in heaven(sky) then i ask you to produce your evidence(proof).
Peace
Farouk

 

[ArtieE]

"dharra" means an atom.
"tharratin" means a speck of dust that is smaller than an atom.

Whatever do you mean? There are no specks of dust smaller than an atom. Now since you say they talk about the "weight of an atom" did they think there was only one atom? Different atoms have different weights. Did they have one particular atom in mind and what did they call the different atoms?

The bottom line is there is not a single word in the English dictionary that can justify the translation of the arabic word "tharratin".

You said that "the word used in the verse is tharratin which simply means an object smaller than an atom". That means that "tharratin" is arabic for electrons, protons and neutrons and elementary particles. Is it a common name for all of them or did they mean one specific? Since they knew about them what did they call them individually?

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

Lol... Alot of arrogance coming from a guy who doesn't even understand the arguments he advances. Given that you're woefully out of your depth on virtually every topic you comment on, your assessment of whether you have "knocked me down" is pretty worthless.

Also, ironic you should claim this after you've basically tucked tail and run from every exchange I've engaged you in on this board. The power of delusion, eh?

:beach:

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

And let's also note that in each case you beat your hasty retreat after I've enumerated various well-recognized criticisms and refutations the various unsound arguments for the existence of God you've offered- likely because you're not familiar enough with the subject matter to actually defend them... You're like a parrot, merely repeating things you've heard others say, lacking the ability to formulate or express any of your own ideas regarding the subjects.

:beach:

 

[farouk]

Whatever do you mean? There are no specks of dust smaller than an atom. Now since you say they talk about the "weight of an atom" did they think there was only one atom? Different atoms have different weights. Did they have one particular atom in mind and what did they call the different atoms?You said that "the word used in the verse is tharratin which simply means an object smaller than an atom". That means that "tharratin" is arabic for electrons, protons and neutrons and elementary particles. Is it a common name for all of them or did they mean one specific? Since they knew about them what did they call them individually?

Peace
ArtieE
Firstly.
We await your findings on weather At-Tabari,Al Qurtubi,Al-Baydawi, and Az-Zamakhshari tafsir was mentioned on the Al Tafsir.com - Tafseer Holy Quran from all Tafseer Schools, Quran Translations, Quran Recitations, Quran Interpretation (Tafseer), Quran Sciences, and Love In Quran site.
Secondly.
Please make the following stick into your brains and make sure its airtight.
Whenever the Noble Quraan is translated,in what ever launguage,it no more becomes the word of God Almighty.The translated Noble Quraan hence becomes the words of the translater of the Quraan.That is why you will never get 2 English translated Quraans being in exactly the same word for word.Each translated Quraan is basically the views and opinion of the translator and hence it becomes the word of man and that is exactly why you will find blatant inaccuracies and errors.Therefore translated Quraan are simply meaning of the Quraan and not the actual Glorious Quraan itself.
Thirdly.
Before answering your question to alleviate your ignorancy let me give you a small lesson on the Glorious Noble Quraan.
In the Glorious Noble Quraan there are 2 types of knowledge that we learn of.
1.llm bil Hadhir which simply means knowledge of something which is present to us right here and right now.
2.Ilm bil Ghayb which simply means knowledge of something which we know but is not here now.
Also llm bil Ghayb refers to knowledge that is concealed from us humans.In other words we know the object is there but we will never be able to discover it.
Note this is a very lengthy subject and i am not going to go into it in detail because its a subject on its own.
Now to answer your question.
The arabic word "tharratin" which refers to an object falls under the knowledge of llm bil Ghayb.We,as humans,know what the object is, that is a speck of dust,but we have not as yet discovered it nor will we ever discover it because it is concealed.
So far as your question that there are no specks of dust smaller than an atom actually shows how ignorant you are on the knowledge of atoms.
What is dust?
It is a component of particulate matter.
What is an atom?
Is is a unit that makes up all matter.
What does an atom composed of?
protons,neutrons,electrons
What does an protons and neutrons composed of?
quarks.
What does a quark composed of?
Well this knowledge is beyond man at this present time.But definately when he upgrades his tools he is going to find a new discovery and if he calls this discovery A then definately A will also be composed of a particle and when he makes this discovery then he will call it B and B will also be composed of a particle.Simply put it his discoverys will take him to infinity.
This infinity is what we call llm bil Ghayb.The object that God calls "tharratin" is concealed.
Your question on weight of an atom again shows complete ignorancy. Atoms range from 0.1 to 0.5 nanometers in width.One nanometer is around 100,000 times smaller than the width of a human hair.
Now if "tharratin" is the infinite divisibility of an atom then i leave you to do the mathematical calculation of the weight of the arabic word "tharratin".
Note "tharratin" is definately not arabic for electrons, protons and neutrons and elementary particles that you are claiming.
Hope that i have answered all your questions.
Peace
Farouk

 

[ArtieE]

Hope that i have answered all your questions.
Peace
Farouk

Point One: I haven't found the references.
Point Two: It is very sad that Allah didn't think of expressing himself in a manner that was easily understandable and translatable. He could have saved everybody a lot of trouble.
Point Three is so confused I can't answer in detail.

I think we can conclude that the Qu'ran is written in such a manner that Arabs can read whatever they like into it and just claim that it is written in such a manner that it can't be properly translated so that nobody can object to them reading whatever they want into it. Very clever. Live long and prosper.

 

[farouk]

Point One: I haven't found the references.
Point Two: It is very sad that Allah didn't think of expressing himself in a manner that was easily understandable and translatable. He could have saved everybody a lot of trouble.
Point Three is so confused I can't answer in detail.

I think we can conclude that the Qu'ran is written in such a manner that Arabs can read whatever they like into it and just claim that it is written in such a manner that it can't be properly translated so that nobody can object to them reading whatever they want into it. Very clever. Live long and prosper.

Peace
ArtieE
On your point one,which you found no reference on the scholars of Islam,would you agree with me that the article that they used is nothing but a lie.
On your point two.Allah revealed the verses of the Noble Quraan in pure arabic and if you cannot understand what was revealed then its not his fault.Note the verses was revealed to Prophet Muhammad(PBBUH) and he,Prophet Muhammad(PBBUH) put those verses into practice.Hence Prophet Muhammad(PBBUH) was the living Quraan.For any one to understand the Quraan more accurately then he has to study the teachings and way of life of Prophet Muhammad(PBBUH).
On your point three.The Noble Quraan was not revealed for the arabs only.It was revealed has a mercy into mankind and that includes you.If you cannot understand the Quraan then its no fault of God or the Arabs.All you have to do is study the arabic launguage and the traditions of the Prophet Muhammad (PBBUH) and you will have a much clearer picture of Allahs message.I think that is the least you could do after all you owe it to your soul.
Finally note i am no Arab but, one thing for sure, i have more knowledge of the Noble Quraan that an arab called Mutee'a Al-Fadi.
Peace and may the Almighty guide you.
Farouk

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Peace
Ouroboros
The moment you assume then it means you not sure and if you not sure then simply means that your opinions are based on guess word.So far from your opinion it very obvious that you lack understanding of the Quranic launguage.
There is a Sura in the Quraan called Sura An-Naml which means The Ant.Now look at your transliteration you quoted and see for yourself if the word naml is there.I don't see it.
Here's the transliteration of the sura:
"Wama takoonu fee sha/nin wamatatloo minhu min qur-anin wala taAAmaloona minAAamalin illa kunna AAalaykum shuhoodan ithtufeedoona feehi wama yaAAzubu AAan rabbika minmithqali tharratin fee al-ardi walafee assama-i wala asghara min thalikawala akbara illa fee kitabin mubeen"

The word for atom is dharra but the word tharra is mentioned here because it is not meant by the atom but it means the small dust particle which you can see in a dark room when light penetrates from a hole.

Let me show you more examples of the Quraan says.
The Noble quraan 36:36
"Glory to Allah, Who created in pairs all things that the earth produces, as well as their own (human) kind and (other) things of which they have no knowledge".
The above is a beautiful verse which is my favourite because it is from the heart of the Quraan.Everything which is in the Universe were created in pairs. Even atoms are in pairs. Same goes to smaller division of atoms, electrons, protons, quarks etc all were created in pairs. This is what physicists call as 'matter and anti matter'.
I know it may sounds unbelievable to most people but it is the truth. Even an electron is in pair.You have a positive and a negative electron.

Note there is much,much more that i can quote from the Noble Quraan but if you already made up your mind in believing in falsehood and you want to have an argumental debate with a closed mind then what is the sense in me breaking my head.Let me finish with a verse from the Noble Quraan 2:256
"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things".
Peace
Farouk

I don't wish to debate, but when i read your replies most of the words you used seem vary familiar, specifically the words in bold, and i remembered where ive read it.
Heres a Link.

Vaisheshika - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Read the atomic theory section. and you will see this.

the trasareṇu (dust particles visible in the sunbeam coming through a small window hole) are the smallest mahat (perceivable) particles and defined as tryaṇukas (triads)

And sage Kaṇāda (or Kana-bhuk, literally, atom-eater) is from around the 2nd century BC, way before Islam.

Just saying.

 

[farouk]

I don't wish to debate, but when i read your replies most of the words you used seem vary familiar, specifically the words in bold, and i remembered where ive read it.
Heres a Link.

Vaisheshika - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Read the atomic theory section. and you will see this.



And sage Kaṇāda (or Kana-bhuk, literally, atom-eater) is from around the 2nd century BC, way before Islam.

Just saying.

Peace
Satyamavejayanti.
Tks for that link.Its the first time that i when into that site and its amazing.The Quraan confirms that it sent messengers to every nation.
Noble Quraan 14:4
"We sent not a messenger except (to teach) in the language of his (own) people, in order to make (things) clear to them. Now Allah leaves straying those whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases: and He is Exalted in power, full of Wisdom".
I did read you don't wish to debate but how can i gain knowledge without asking you questions about your religion.With your permission it is my wish to start a thread on Hinduism so as to gain a greater knowledge of other peoples beliefs.Note questions can be hurtful but its the only way to understand and get a through knowledge of other beliefs.
Again i say only with your permission.
Peace
Farouk

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The previous universe?

I agree.

 

[farouk]

Peace to all
The Noble Quraan 51:49
"And all things We have created by pairs, that haply ye may reflect."
In every neutral atom there are forces that leave it in equilibrium.

The Noble Quraan 61:3-4
"[And] who created seven heavens in layers. You do not see in the creation of the Most Merciful any inconsistency. So return [your] vision [to the sky]; do you see any breaks?
Then return [your] vision twice again. [Your] vision will return to you humbled while it is fatigued."
This perfect symmetry can be seen in nature.

Here is a link/study it and see for yourself that the words of the Noble Quraan are from non other than Allah.
Everything Forever: Learning to See the Timeless Multiverse

Peace
Farouk

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Peace
Satyamavejayanti.
Tks for that link.Its the first time that i when into that site and its amazing.The Quraan confirms that it sent messengers to every nation.
Noble Quraan 14:4
"We sent not a messenger except (to teach) in the language of his (own) people, in order to make (things) clear to them. Now Allah leaves straying those whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases: and He is Exalted in power, full of Wisdom".
I did read you don't wish to debate but how can i gain knowledge without asking you questions about your religion.With your permission it is my wish to start a thread on Hinduism so as to gain a greater knowledge of other peoples beliefs.Note questions can be hurtful but its the only way to understand and get a through knowledge of other beliefs.
Again i say only with your permission.
Peace
Farouk

You don't need my permission for anything, feel free to start a thread