If God is loving and omnibenevolent why would God…

[CG Didymus]

I am referring to the biblical scriptures. Yet, I did not trust Jesus Christ as my Savior, understand the Bible, or become born again to new life in Christ until I was over thirty. Prior to that time I studied and delved into different spiritual paths and philosophies, such as Eastern religions, new age and others.

Even I've that that I believe most all religions or religious paths will work for a person if they believe it and follow it. But I believe it's also true that some religions were tried by a person, and they didn't work or didn't work as well for that person as one of the others.

So, what was it that was different for you when you found Jesus and Christianity? And something that is important to this thread, is that when a person does get born-again and becomes a Christian, it includes a belief that those other religious paths aren't true. Was that the case with you?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Yeah, that is objective. Now do the same for morality.

Immoral are those things that increase suffering.
Raping someone increases suffering.
Thereof raping someone is immoral.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I think there would be and are thousands of different religions because these are the perfect distraction from the truth; that the way to heaven/eternal life is a Person Jesus Christ not a religion.

Euh... that is a religion. It's called christianity.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Immoral are those things that increase suffering.
Raping someone increases suffering.
Thereof raping someone is immoral.

Yeah, that is you saying it.

You have to show it is objective. You have these subjective judgements. I have them too. But I don't claim they are objective.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Yeah, that is you saying it.

You have to show it is objective. You have these subjective judgements. I have them too. But I don't claim they are objective.

So what is the "subjective" part?


That "immoral" are those things that increase suffering / cause harm?
Or that raping someone increases suffering / cause harm?

Which of these two do you consider to be "just an opinion"?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

So what is the "subjective" part?


That "immoral" are those things that increase suffering / cause harm?
Or that raping someone increases suffering / cause harm?

Which of these two do you consider to be "just an opinion"?

Here are the relevant defintions of objective and subjective.

Definition of OBJECTIVE

expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations; limited to choices of fixed alternatives and reducing subjective factors to a minimum… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

-expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations.
It is a personal interpretation that "immoral" is.. It is personal feelings in regards to suffering and harm.

-of, relating to, or being an object, phenomenon, or condition in the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers
"Immoral", suffering and harm are not sensible experience perceptible by all observers.

Definition of SUBJECTIVE

of, relating to, or constituting a subject: such as; of, relating to, or characteristic of one that is a subject especially in lack of freedom of action or in submissiveness; being or relating to a grammatical subject; especially : nominative… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

-relating to or being experience or knowledge as conditioned by personal mental characteristics or states
"Immoral", sufferenig and harm are personal mental characteristics or states.

Now science is to replicate a claim. When I try to replicate your claim I experince it as subectjve. Suffering and harm are real and true, but subejctive. I can't help that you, it would appear, in effect have a subjective rule that only the objective is real and true.

So again, suffering and harm are subjective mental states in a given brain and not objective. It is intersubjective in that several humans experince those, but it is not objective.

 

[Glaurung]

It’s time for Christians to stand up and defend their beliefs.

What are you talking about? Christianity is arguably the most scrutinized religion on these forums. And in any case, no one who identifies as Christian here or anywhere else owes you engagement.

If God is loving and omnibenevolent why would God make Christianity the only true religion and Jesus the only way to God?

That makes no sense to me and that is one reason why I could never be a Christian. I believe that God is just and it would be terribly unjust if Christianity was the only true religion and Jesus was the only way to God. What about the 67% of the world population who are not Christians? Even worse, to say that all those people are going to hell is an untenable belief. How can people actually believe that?

If you believe in predestination then it makes sense. God grants faith to some as he pleases and abandons the rest to their (foreseen) unbelief and sin. It may not seem fair but faith in God presumes trust in the justice of divine providence. "If I were God, I would have it differently" is not a compelling argument against Christianity.

Further, Christianity does not teach that those outside the structures of the visible Chruch are without hope of salvation. It teaches that those who obstinately reject the truth lose their hope for salvation.

“It’s in the Bible” is not good enough because the Bible can be used to support any beliefs that people want to hold. I can even use the Bible to support my Baha’i beliefs.

It's true that you can quote mine the Bible to say nearly anything, but not all readings of the Bible are equally valid.

 

[Trailblazer]

What are you talking about? Christianity is arguably the most scrutinized religion on these forums. And in any case, no one who identifies as Christian here or anywhere else owes you engagement.

Yes, Christianity is the most scrutinized religion on these forums, maybe because of the bold claims it makes, to be the one true religion.
I did not say that Christians owe me engagement.

If you believe in predestination then it makes sense. God grants faith to some as he pleases and abandons the rest to their (foreseen) unbelief and sin. It may not seem fair but faith in God presumes trust in the justice of divine providence. "If I were God, I would have it differently" is not a compelling argument against Christianity.

I do not believe in predestination, I believe in free will. God does not grant is faith, we have to struggle for it. We have to choose what to believe and we are thereby responsible for our beliefs or non-belief. I believe that God will assist those who make an effort.

That said, I believe that some people are guided by God to see the truth and others are not.

Further, Christianity does not teach that those outside the structures of the visible Chruch are without hope of salvation. It teaches that those who obstinately reject the truth lose their hope for salvation.

What truth? The truth that God exists or the truth that Jesus died for our sins?

It's true that you can quote mine the Bible to say nearly anything, but not all readings of the Bible are equally valid.

Then who is to say which teachings are more valid than others?

 

[InChrist]

Euh... that is a religion. It's called christianity.

I believe it’s a relationship, rather than merely the practice of a religion. I believe that’s the message of the Bible; a saving, loving, eternal personal relationship with Jesus Christ. That’s entirely different than just a religious practice.

 

[InChrist]

Even I've that that I believe most all religions or religious paths will work for a person if they believe it and follow it. But I believe it's also true that some religions were tried by a person, and they didn't work or didn't work as well for that person as one of the others.

So, what was it that was different for you when you found Jesus and Christianity? And something that is important to this thread, is that when a person does get born-again and becomes a Christian, it includes a belief that those other religious paths aren't true. Was that the case with you?

Yes, that was definitely the case in my situation. I realized all my previous ideas, beliefs were untrue…because I realized Jesus was more than just a historical figure, He was Alive in the present, eternally God and the only One who could save me from confusion, sin, darkness, and death.

 

[Glaurung]

Yes, Christianity is the most scrutinized religion on these forums, maybe because of the bold claims it makes, to be the one true religion.
I did not say that Christians owe me engagement.

To believe in something is to exclude the contrary. This is true of every religion, even the ones which pretend otherwise.

I do not believe in predestination, I believe in free will. God does not grant is faith, we have to struggle for it. We have to choose what to believe and we are thereby responsible for our beliefs or non-belief. I believe that God will assist those who make an effort.

That said, I believe that some people are guided by God to see the truth and others are not.

Predestination is not necessarily at odds with free will. Not all Christians are Calvinists.

What truth? The truth that God exists or the truth that Jesus died for our sins?

Yes, Christianity teaches that a person who willfully persists in error risks reprobation. One cannot genuinely love God if one willfully denies what God has revealed. But not everyone who is outside of Christianity has culpably rejected it. That is left for God to judge.

Then who is to say which teachings are more valid than others?

For one, there's the tradition of the Church, from which the Bible derives its status as scripture in the first place. But there's also reading it in context according to its plain reading. Hint. Neither Islam nor the Baha'i Faith is there in any such reading.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I believe it’s a relationship, rather than merely the practice of a religion. I believe that’s the message of the Bible; a saving, loving, eternal personal relationship with Jesus Christ. That’s entirely different than just a religious practice.

Your beliefs are religious beliefs. The message of the bible is a religious message. It is literally the scripture of the religion.

 

[InChrist]

Your beliefs are religious beliefs. The message of the bible is a religious message. It is literally the scripture of the religion.

Well, I am sure I can’t convince you otherwise, but I believe the message and point of the Bible is to testify of an eternal Creator Being, Spiritual Person, and Savior Jesus Christ and His love for His creation.
Probably not much use in arguing further about it.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Well, I am sure I can’t convince you otherwise, but I believe the message and point of the Bible is to testify of an eternal Creator Being, Spiritual Person, and Savior Jesus Christ and His love for His creation.

Yes, that's a central tenent of your religion of christianity.
I know.

 

[InChrist]

Yes, that's a central tenent of your religion of christianity.
I know.

I remember reading the Bible and looking into or trying out different religions. All so confusing, no peace about any of it. I think it was a few weeks before my eyes (mind) was opened and I was born again, I started to think maybe I should just go back to the Catholic Church since that was what I was raised in as a kid. Then … something just clicked; I met Jesus and knew it wasn’t a church group, nor a religion or spiritual practice, I needed, but God in the Person and Savior Jesus Christ.
Just how it was and is for me. I believe it’s what God intends and desires for everyone; a living, loving, personal, eternal relationship. God is Love.

 

[Sand Dancer]

If God is loving and omnibenevolent why would God make Christianity the only true religion and Jesus the only way to God?

That makes no sense to me and that is one reason why I could never be a Christian. I believe that God is just and it would be terribly unjust if Christianity was the only true religion and Jesus was the only way to God. What about the 67% of the world population who are not Christians? Even worse, to say that all those people are going to hell is an untenable belief. How can people actually believe that?

It’s time for Christians to stand up and defend their beliefs.

“It’s in the Bible” is not good enough because the Bible can be used to support any beliefs that people want to hold. I can even use the Bible to support my Baha’i beliefs.

I don't think the way is Jesus himself, I think it's his teachings. He wanted followers, not robots. Loving god and neighbor as self is more effective in getting people to be better than is preaching that we are to "believe in" or worship Jesus. That is nothing but fire insurance. There's a big difference in focus.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't think the way is Jesus himself, I think it's his teachings. He wanted followers, not robots. Loving god and neighbor as self is more effective in getting people to be better than is preaching that we are to "believe in" or worship Jesus. That is nothing but fire insurance. There's a big difference in focus.

Sadly, the fire insurance is what most Christians seem to want so the wonderful teachings take a back seat.
Christians want a Savior, so that takes center stage.

 

[CG Didymus]

I don't think the way is Jesus himself, I think it's his teachings.

What's difficult is that with the gospels and the epistles, we get what his disciples taught and believed along with what Paul taught.

Here's a link to a site that looks at what Jesus taught...

The two greatest commandments, according to Jesus, are to “love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind” and to “love your neighbor as yourself”​

​

But that's straight out of the Jewish Bible...

Leviticus 19:18 Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.​

​

Deuteronomy 6:5 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.​

​

Then it talks about God's Kingdom...

A major theme in Jesus’ teaching was the Kingdom of God or Kingdom of Heaven. This refers to God’s spiritual reign and authority over the lives of people who trust and obey Him...​

​

According to Jesus, the Kingdom will be established fully when He returns to judge the world and abolish evil forever (Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43). Jesus used parables to illustrate how the Kingdom grows and what it will be like.​

​

I hope all this judgement stuff is wrong. But, if not, then there's going to be a lot of people cast into hell. Unless you don't believe that Jesus really taught those things. And, since this is a thread by a Baha'is, their prophet didn't abolish evil, and they don't believe in a literal hell or a literal Satan.

Then a big one, repentance and forgiveness of sin...

Jesus repeatedly called people to repent, warning about the consequences of unrepentant sin (Luke 13:1-5). To repent means to turn away from sin, wrongdoing, and selfishness and to submit our lives to God. Jesus linking repentance with entering the Kingdom of God (Matthew 4:17).​

​

Through His death on the cross, Jesus opened the way for people to be made right with God, forgiven of sins, and granted eternal life (John 3:16-17).​

​

We access this forgiveness and life by turning to Jesus in repentant faith (Acts 3:19).​

​

So, did Jesus teach this, or was it his disciples? Either way, who loves God with all their heart? And who loves their neighbor as themselves? And, other than some Christians, who believes that only those that believe in Jesus, like those Christians say you have to, will be saved? And everybody else will be cast into hell.

I don't know if we can really separate out what Jesus taught and what the NT says. They're sort of claiming that what they say is what Jesus taught. And I chose not to believe it.

But I do see the value of trying to live by the "Golden Rule" and do unto others like you'd want them to do unto you. But I don't practice it perfectly.

​

 

[Spice]

What's difficult is that with the gospels and the epistles, we get what his disciples taught and believed along with what Paul taught.

Here's a link to a site that looks at what Jesus taught...

The two greatest commandments, according to Jesus, are to “love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind” and to “love your neighbor as yourself”​

​

But that's straight out of the Jewish Bible...

Leviticus 19:18 Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.​

​

Deuteronomy 6:5 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.​

​

Then it talks about God's Kingdom...

A major theme in Jesus’ teaching was the Kingdom of God or Kingdom of Heaven. This refers to God’s spiritual reign and authority over the lives of people who trust and obey Him...​

​

According to Jesus, the Kingdom will be established fully when He returns to judge the world and abolish evil forever (Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43). Jesus used parables to illustrate how the Kingdom grows and what it will be like.​

​

I hope all this judgement stuff is wrong. But, if not, then there's going to be a lot of people cast into hell. Unless you don't believe that Jesus really taught those things. And, since this is a thread by a Baha'is, their prophet didn't abolish evil, and they don't believe in a literal hell or a literal Satan.

Then a big one, repentance and forgiveness of sin...

Jesus repeatedly called people to repent, warning about the consequences of unrepentant sin (Luke 13:1-5). To repent means to turn away from sin, wrongdoing, and selfishness and to submit our lives to God. Jesus linking repentance with entering the Kingdom of God (Matthew 4:17).​

​

Through His death on the cross, Jesus opened the way for people to be made right with God, forgiven of sins, and granted eternal life (John 3:16-17).​

​

We access this forgiveness and life by turning to Jesus in repentant faith (Acts 3:19).​

​

So, did Jesus teach this, or was it his disciples? Either way, who loves God with all their heart? And who loves their neighbor as themselves? And, other than some Christians, who believes that only those that believe in Jesus, like those Christians say you have to, will be saved? And everybody else will be cast into hell.

I don't know if we can really separate out what Jesus taught and what the NT says. They're sort of claiming that what they say is what Jesus taught. And I chose not to believe it.

But I do see the value of trying to live by the "Golden Rule" and do unto others like you'd want them to do unto you. But I don't practice it perfectly.

​

When we forget Jesus was a devout Jew, we set ourselves up for being led into Greek mythology.
IMV, the main reason for Jesus' particular ministry was the growing discontent of Roman rule along with the increasing rebellious actions of the Zealots. I see Jesus as the Martin Luther King, Jr, of his time and place. I see that as the main reason he became "known" when he taught nothing new. It was "time."
Now I do see his life as being special and worthy of emulating, and spiritually I believe he achieved what he taught which makes him very special indeed.

 

[CG Didymus]

When we forget Jesus was a devout Jew, we set ourselves up for being led into Greek mythology.
IMV, the main reason for Jesus' particular ministry was the growing discontent of Roman rule along with the increasing rebellious actions of the Zealots. I see Jesus as the Martin Luther King, Jr, of his time and place. I see that as the main reason he became "known" when he taught nothing new. It was "time."
Now I do see his life as being special and worthy of emulating, and spiritually I believe he achieved what he taught which makes him very special indeed.

If the stories are for real, the greatness of Jesus has to include that he was a God/man. Born of a virgin, walking on water and being raised from the dead and then to have the power and authority to cast out demons and forgive sins.

The way the gospel stories makes him out to be, then he was greater than any other man. I'm just too skeptical. I think it would have been very easy for the gospel writers to embellish the stories with miracles. But to also make him out to be the most spiritually perfect person that ever lived.