If God is loving and omnibenevolent why would God…

[TagliatelliMonster]

If there is One God, Creator of heaven and earth, then it would make sense there is One way to get to this One God.

How does that follow?

There’s only one you, I presume.

Yes. And there are many many ways to reach me.

If I were to come see you I would hope you would give me your correct address so I would actually get to see the real “you”

Sure, but you could take any route you like. There wouldn't be just "one" route, nor wouldn't there be just "one" car capable of driving upto my house...
I could furthermore also meet you in a bar somewhere else.

I believe Jesus to be the Way, the Truth, and the Life and He said…
No one comes to the Father except through me, besides other statements showing He Alone is the way to receive forgiveness, reconciliation with God, and eternal life.
I believe Jesus and for me it’s not about following this religion or that religion, even Christianity. It’s Jesus Christ and Him Alone.

So your analogy is false then.
Your analogy of my address would be more like you only being able to reach me in a black Volvo C60 with an automatic gearbox while playing an mp3 of "born to be wild" from a Nokia X20 using bluetooth, and taking the exact route given to you even though it seems like a detour.

 

[InChrist]

How does that follow?



Yes. And there are many many ways to reach me.



Sure, but you could take any route you like. There wouldn't be just "one" route, nor wouldn't there be just "one" car capable of driving upto my house...
I could furthermore also meet you in a bar somewhere else.


So your analogy is false then.
Your analogy of my address would be more like you only being able to reach me in a black Volvo C60 with an automatic gearbox while playing an mp3 of "born to be wild" from a Nokia X20 using bluetooth, and taking the exact route given to you even though it seems like a detour.

Except that God is the Creator of heaven and earth; an Eternal Spiritual Being vastly different and beyond humanity. God isn’t just someone living in a house at some physical location on a street someplace on the earth.
So if God reveals there’s one way for human beings to reach Him through one Mediator, the one and only fully God/fully human Being Jesus Christ… then it makes sense to me.

 

[Trailblazer]

So if God reveals there’s one way for human beings to reach Him through one Mediator, the one and only fully God/fully human Being Jesus Christ… then it makes sense to me.

If God reveals there has been more than one way for human beings to reach Him, through various Manifestations of God/Messengers who have appeared on earth throughout history, then that makes sense to me.

“Beware, O believers in the Unity of God, lest ye be tempted to make any distinction between any of the Manifestations of His Cause, or to discriminate against the signs that have accompanied and proclaimed their Revelation. This indeed is the true meaning of Divine Unity, if ye be of them that apprehend and believe this truth. Be ye assured, moreover, that the works and acts of each and every one of these Manifestations of God, nay whatever pertaineth unto them, and whatsoever they may manifest in the future, are all ordained by God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Whoso maketh the slightest possible difference between their persons, their words, their messages, their acts and manners, hath indeed disbelieved in God, hath repudiated His signs, and betrayed the Cause of His Messengers.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 59-60

It makes no sense to be that there would only be one Messenger of God at one time in history and never again would humans need to hear from God.
To be 'saved and forgiven' is not all humans need from God. Humans have other needs that go beyond that. Everyone has already been saved and forgiven by the cross sacrifice so the mission of Jesus was accomplished. Now what? I believe that humanity now has other needs, needs that apply to living on this planet.

“The Prophets of God should be regarded as physicians whose task is to foster the well-being of the world and its peoples, that, through the spirit of oneness, they may heal the sickness of a divided humanity. To none is given the right to question their words or disparage their conduct, for they are the only ones who can claim to have understood the patient and to have correctly diagnosed its ailments. No man, however acute his perception, can ever hope to reach the heights which the wisdom and understanding of the Divine Physician have attained. Little wonder, then, if the treatment prescribed by the physician in this day should not be found to be identical with that which he prescribed before. How could it be otherwise when the ills affecting the sufferer necessitate at every stage of his sickness a special remedy?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 80

 

[Spice]

It makes no sense to be that there would only be one Messenger of God at one time in history and never again would humans need to hear from God.
To be 'saved and forgiven' is not all humans need from God. Humans have other needs that go beyond that. Everyone has already been saved and forgiven by the cross sacrifice so the mission of Jesus was accomplished. Now what? I believe that humanity now has other needs, needs that apply to living on this planet.

Excellent points!

 

[loverofhumanity]

Until Muhammad and now with Baha'u'llah, what did people have to go by?

Once Christianity became the dominant religion, the people were told that Jesus was the only way. The God, the Father, did them a big favor... he was not going to judge them for their sins, but forgive them of their sins. All they had to do is believe in his Son Jesus.

And they were also told that if they don't, they would be cast into hell with Satan and the demons. They were told that Jesus had indeed risen from the dead and was coming back to establish God's kingdom on Earth.

What other religion was there that challenged the supremacy of Christianity? Did anyone care, or even know about the religions of India and China or Japan and other Far Eastern countries? And when Europe did discover them, they wrote them off as being false religions.

People were killed for not believing exactly how they were told. People were tortured and killed if they didn't convert.

Then came the Protestant Reformation. We are still dealing with the dominant Protestant sects that firmly believe Jesus is the only way and the Bible is literally true.

So, how could an all-loving God allow this? Because he allowed a supposed "true" religion, Christianity, to teach the world that their beliefs are the only true ones. And he allowed the followers of Jesus to write the story about Jesus.

Now the Baha'is are trying to undo all the indoctrination that has been going on for the last 2000 years. But, as is apparent to Baha'is, some of us don't trust them. But some of us don't trust the Christians either.

There is a vast difference between God allowing and endorsing. God‘s Manifestations only ever offer guidance to mankind. Humanity has and is always free to reject it. God does not punish people for rejecting His Message. We punish ourselves by choosing a worse path or even one which leads to war and destruction. We have freedom of choice and so any consequences are determined by our actions alone. So the suffering of wars and prejudice are of our own doing. We have brought a living hell so to speak upon ourselves not God. The Manifestations teach to love, to be united, to establish world peace and unity but we refused so we are now experiencing the consequences of making bad choices. We could have chosen to follow the guidance of the Manifestations but many instead chose to follow fallible priests and clergy which have only caused disunity and confusion.

My point is that God is allowing humanity the freedom to experience the consequences of its own choices. He didn’t want to force us to love or obey Him or create a race of obedient robots. So it’s up to us whether we consider the guidance offered to us by Baha’u’llah whether it’s better than the choices we are making now or not. It’s up to humanity to choose which path it wants to walk and God is not responsible for our freely made decisions. We alone are responsible.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Except that God is the Creator of heaven and earth; an Eternal Spiritual Being vastly different and beyond humanity. God isn’t just someone living in a house at some physical location on a street someplace on the earth.
So if God reveals there’s one way for human beings to reach Him through one Mediator, the one and only fully God/fully human Being Jesus Christ… then it makes sense to me.

So you’re saying God, the Omnipotent, cannot send other Messengers to humanity even if He so wishes?

You‘re placing restrictions on God? I think if that is an interpretation you got from the Bible then it’s saying God is not God but must obey the Bible too even though being God means He can do whatever He pleases no? Where does the Bible place such restrictions on God? Cannot God do anything He so pleases? If your interpretation includes restrictions on God then it is not God you are following because God is God and Omnipotent and not limited to only sending Jesus.

The minute we restrict God, He is no longer God but we are worshipping our own concepts and imagination.

Of course God could have sent Krishna and Buddha and Muhammad and Baha’u’llah. He is not chained up as He is God and can do whatever He pleases. The problem with interpretations is we tend to create narratives that say God can't or won’t or didn’t do this or that. Who are we puny humans to speak for what God can or cannot do?

 

[Spice]

So you’re saying God, the Omnipotent, cannot send other Messengers to humanity even if He so wishes?

You‘re placing restrictions on God? I think if that is an interpretation you got from the Bible then it’s saying God is not God but must obey the Bible too even though being God means He can do whatever He pleases no? Where does the Bible place such restrictions on God? Cannot God do anything He so pleases? If your interpretation includes restrictions on God then it is not God you are following because God is God and Omnipotent and not limited to only sending Jesus.

The minute we restrict God, He is no longer God but we are worshipping our own concepts and imagination.

Of course God could have sent Krishna and Buddha and Muhammad and Baha’u’llah. He is not chained up as He is God and can do whatever He pleases. The problem with interpretations is we tend to create narratives that say God can't or won’t or didn’t do this or that. Who are we puny humans to speak for what God can or cannot do?

And let's not forget the lesser prophets, although only "lesser" in the eyes of some because they are from modern times and do no fall into the parameters of official sainthood. Look to the truths and goodness in the lives of

Mahatmi Gandi, “When I despair, I remember that all through history the ways of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants, and murderers, and for a time they can seem invincible, but in the end they always fall. Think of it—always.”;

M. L. King, Jr., “The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.”;

Voltaire, “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”;

Oscar Arias Sánchez, “The more freedom we enjoy, the greater the responsibility we bear, toward others as well as ourselves.”;

Desmond Tutu, “I am not interested in picking up crumbs of compassion thrown from the table of someone who considers himself my master. I want the full menu of rights.”;

José Ramos-Horta, “If those in power, wherever we are, whichever country but also at whatever level in society that we are leaders, began working together—we would eliminate abject poverty and ensure that poverty becomes history in twenty years from now. It’s a moral duty of any of us as human beings.”

A new religion should not be necessary. In fact no religion should be necessary. However if religion inspires an individual's capacity to do the right thing, then by all means, support and respect religion.
(God lives within us all. May His light shine on our world through us.)
Namaste

 

[loverofhumanity]

And let's not forget the lesser prophets, although only "lesser" in the eyes of some because they are from modern times and do no fall into the parameters of official sainthood. Look to the truths and goodness in the lives of

Mahatmi Gandi, “When I despair, I remember that all through history the ways of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants, and murderers, and for a time they can seem invincible, but in the end they always fall. Think of it—always.”;

M. L. King, Jr., “The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.”;

Voltaire, “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”;

Oscar Arias Sánchez, “The more freedom we enjoy, the greater the responsibility we bear, toward others as well as ourselves.”;

Desmond Tutu, “I am not interested in picking up crumbs of compassion thrown from the table of someone who considers himself my master. I want the full menu of rights.”;

José Ramos-Horta, “If those in power, wherever we are, whichever country but also at whatever level in society that we are leaders, began working together—we would eliminate abject poverty and ensure that poverty becomes history in twenty years from now. It’s a moral duty of any of us as human beings.”

A new religion should not be necessary. In fact no religion should be necessary. However if religion inspires an individual's capacity to do the right thing, then by all means, support and respect religion.
(God lives within us all. May His light shine on our world through us.)
Namaste

There’s some great people there. Each age has its particular problem and our age is no different where solutions that were effective in the past cannot hold back world wars or control prejudices and hatreds but are often the cause of them. That is why Christ said He would return and Krishna in the Gita said He returns from age to age as the needs change. Today we need to get along as equals. To create an environment of peace and harmony we need to be more tolerant of our differences of race, religion and nationality. We need a powerful uniting force that can bring us together but so far the answer does not lie in the religions of the past as they have failed to stem the tide of conflict.

 

[CG Didymus]

There is a vast difference between God allowing and endorsing. God‘s Manifestations only ever offer guidance to mankind. Humanity has and is always free to reject it. God does not punish people for rejecting His Message.

I assume you have read the Bible. It was "thou shalt" do this and "thou shalt not" do that. Even before Moses came down from the mountain with the Ten Commandments, the people had made an idol and were worshipping it. God was not very happy with them.

But I know Baha'is water-down those stories and say they didn't literally happen as written. So, exactly what is it that Baha'is believe about that jealous, judgmental, and vengeful God of the Bible? I'd imagine not much. That God didn't just make suggestions that were optional... He made laws that were enforced... sometimes by death.

Now, the thing is, I don't believe those stories were literally true either. But unlike Baha'is, I question whether a supernatural, loving God had anything to do with giving "guidance" to the people who wrote the Bible. I think it is very possible they made up that vengeful, jealous God.

 

[CG Didymus]

There’s some great people there. Each age has its particular problem and our age is no different where solutions that were effective in the past cannot hold back world wars or control prejudices and hatreds but are often the cause of them. That is why Christ said He would return and Krishna in the Gita said He returns from age to age as the needs change. Today we need to get along as equals. To create an environment of peace and harmony we need to be more tolerant of our differences of race, religion and nationality. We need a powerful uniting force that can bring us together but so far the answer does not lie in the religions of the past as they have failed to stem the tide of conflict.

And we are heading towards 200 years of the Baha'i Era, and religion is still failing.

So, unless there is a big change in the hearts of people, I don't think the Baha'i laws are enough to make people change. Religious laws have never worked. And, sometimes, those laws make things worse when religious leaders try and force people to conform to those laws.

 

[CG Didymus]

So if God reveals there’s one way for human beings to reach Him through one Mediator, the one and only fully God/fully human Being Jesus Christ… then it makes sense to me.

That is how some Christians interpret things. And I can see why they do. That's how the gospels and the rest of the NT makes it sounds. There is no other way. Humans fell. They are sinners. They needed a redeemer to save them. The other religions don't believe like that. They are very different.

Excellent points!

The Christian God did send lots of prophets. And now they are waiting for their Jesus to return to make things right.

So you’re saying God, the Omnipotent, cannot send other Messengers to humanity even if He so wishes?

You‘re placing restrictions on God?

There are no restrictions on their concept of God. Their God is doing exactly what they believe he is supposed to be doing. Baha'is are including people that according to those Christian beliefs were not sent by God but are false prophets.

But something that gets ignored a lot is how Baha'is change things to make the Gods, teachings, practices and beliefs of the other religions fit into what Baha'is believe to be true.

To refresh your memory... Baha'is deny incarnations of Gods. They deny that there are many Gods. They deny most everything that the NT teaches about the need for a savior and how Jesus had to die to pay the penalty that God required for sin. And of course, Baha'is deny Jesus rose from the dead and is coming back.

Maybe your interpretation is dead on. But it sure makes the gospels and the NT look like make-believe fairytales.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I assume you have read the Bible. It was "thou shalt" do this and "thou shalt not" do that. Even before Moses came down from the mountain with the Ten Commandments, the people had made an idol and were worshipping it. God was not very happy with them.

But I know Baha'is water-down those stories and say they didn't literally happen as written. So, exactly what is it that Baha'is believe about that jealous, judgmental, and vengeful God of the Bible? I'd imagine not much. That God didn't just make suggestions that were optional... He made laws that were enforced... sometimes by death.

Now, the thing is, I don't believe those stories were literally true either. But unlike Baha'is, I question whether a supernatural, loving God had anything to do with giving "guidance" to the people who wrote the Bible. I think it is very possible they made up that vengeful, jealous God.

We are told by Baha’u’llah that God is just but that His mercy exceeds His justice and also that ‘He does whatever He wills’ so we cannot know or second guess what will be God’s judgement when we pass to the next world. As to this world certain laws have been revealed according to the age.

It is Baha’u’llah Who explains the meanings not Baha’is. It is stated in Revelation chapter 5 that only the Promised One can unseal the intended meanings of the Books. The laws are obvious and in no need of interpretation. Whatever Baha’u’llah has quoted and explained, we agree with as well as Abdul-Baha and the Guardian. But we as individuals do not interpret the Words of the Bible as we are just as likely to make mistakes as any human. That is why we always refer to the interpretation of the Manifestation.

 

[Trailblazer]

Now, the thing is, I don't believe those stories were literally true either. But unlike Baha'is, I question whether a supernatural, loving God had anything to do with giving "guidance" to the people who wrote the Bible. I think it is very possible they made up that vengeful, jealous God.

That might be unlike some of the Baha'is, but not unlike all of the Baha'is.

Unlike some Baha'is, I question whether a supernatural, loving God had anything to do with giving "guidance" to the people who wrote the Bible.
I not only think it is very possible that men made up a vengeful, jealous God, I believe that is exactly what happened.

That does not mean that God is not real, it only means that the anthropomorphic God depicted in the OT is not real.
When are you ever going to come to realize that the Bible is a book written by men whereas the Baha'i Writings were written by a Messenger of God, and the huge difference between those two?

 

[Trailblazer]

And we are heading towards 200 years of the Baha'i Era, and religion is still failing.

The Baha'i Faith is not failing. anything but. All the plans instituted by the UHJ are right on track.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Except that God is the Creator of heaven and earth; an Eternal Spiritual Being vastly different and beyond humanity. God isn’t just someone living in a house at some physical location on a street someplace on the earth.
So if God reveals there’s one way for human beings to reach Him through one Mediator, the one and only fully God/fully human Being Jesus Christ… then it makes sense to me.

Smells like special pleading.

Also kind of funny and ironic that an all-powerful, all-knowing god seems to be so limited.

 

[blü 2]

I believe Jesus to be the Way, the Truth, and the Life and He said…
No one comes to the Father except through me, besides other statements showing He Alone is the way to receive forgiveness, reconciliation with God, and eternal life.
I believe Jesus and for me it’s not about following this religion or that religion, even Christianity. It’s Jesus Christ and Him Alone.

But this is John's Jesus (14:6), under the influence of gnostic ideas, as is Paul's Jesus. In gnosticism, God is envisaged as purest of pure spirit, incredibly remote, so that it's inconceivable [he] would create a material universe. That's why Paul's Jesus and John's Jesus are each said to have created the material universe, taking the role of gnosticism's Demiurge ("craftsman") in doing what you might say was the dirty work. And that's why John's Jesus is so express about the distance between God and man and the need for him, Jesus, as intermediary. That's the sense of the passage quoted above. The idea is further expounded in John 17, which says that just as God and Jesus are one, so those who by becoming Christians make themselves one with Jesus, thereby through Jesus become one with God.

None of that is true, however, of the Jesus of Mark, who's an ordinary Jewish male until adopted by God following his baptism, nor of the Jesuses of Matthew or of Luke, none of whom created the universe, and none of whom are anything more than God's envoy, announcing the imminent arrival of the Son of Man to establish the Kingdom of God on earth, all this to happen within the lifetime of some of Jesus' hearers..

 

[Trailblazer]

Also kind of funny and ironic that an all-powerful, all-knowing god seems to be so limited.

I do not believe that God is limited to sending only one man, Jesus, who was the only way to know Him, since that makes no sense to me.

 

[CG Didymus]

It is stated in Revelation chapter 5 that only the Promised One can unseal the intended meanings of the Books.

No, I don't think that's what it says. Let's take a look...

​

Revelation 5:5 “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”​

​

6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits[a] of God sent out into all the earth. 7 He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne...​

​

9 ... “You are worthy to take the scroll​

and to open its seals,​

because you were slain...​

​

12 ... “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain...​

​

Revelation 6:1 6 I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals.​

​

First, you switched the "Lamb" with the "Promised One." Then it sounds like you're trying to make it the whole Bible rather just unsealing this particular scroll... that then gets opened and talked about in the following chapters in Revelation.

As far as religions go, the Baha'i Faith has some good things going for it. There's no need to force verses into fitting into your beliefs.

 

[Spice]

No, I don't think that's what it says. Let's take a look...

​

Revelation 5:5 “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”​

​

6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits[a] of God sent out into all the earth. 7 He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne...​

​

9 ... “You are worthy to take the scroll​

and to open its seals,​

because you were slain...​

​

12 ... “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain...​

​

Revelation 6:1 6 I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals.​

​

First, you switched the "Lamb" with the "Promised One." Then it sounds like you're trying to make it the whole Bible rather just unsealing this particular scroll... that then gets opened and talked about in the following chapters in Revelation.

As far as religions go, the Baha'i Faith has some good things going for it. There's no need to force verses into fitting into your beliefs.

And from the wisdom of our ancient preacher: Ecclesiastes 12:11 The sayings of the wise are like goads, and like nails firmly fixed are the collected sayings which are given by one Shepherd.
12 My son, beware of anything beyond these. Of making many books there is no end, and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

 

[CG Didymus]

God‘s Manifestations only ever offer guidance to mankind. Humanity has and is always free to reject it. God does not punish people for rejecting His Message.

Again, in the Bible God did punish people for rejecting his commands and his laws. But that is assuming those laws and commands really came from a God. But does that matter? Because people were told it was true and from God and that they must obey. And the religious leaders were given authority to punish and even kill people for disobeying that God.

It is stated in Revelation chapter 5 that only the Promised One can unseal the intended meanings of the Books.

You haven't commented on this yet. The actual verses in Revelation show a specific being, this lamb, was able to unseal the scroll. The scroll was unsealed, and the contents of that scroll were described.

The Baha'i way of looking at it makes it seem like nobody really knew the true meaning of their Scriptures until Baha'u'llah revealed the "true" interpretation.

Although, I don't agree with many of the teachings and beliefs of the different religions, I do believe they were exactly what the religious leaders intended. Because I believe it is very likely they wrote the Scriptures. All these "manifestations" prior to Muhammad and the Bab and Baha'u'llah that the Baha'is claim "revealed" the Scriptures of a particular religion were only characters in the stories in those Scriptures.

Somebody wrote those stories. And it wasn't a "manifestation".

And from the wisdom of our ancient preacher: Ecclesiastes 12:11 The sayings of the wise are like goads, and like nails firmly fixed are the collected sayings which are given by one Shepherd.
12 My son, beware of anything beyond these. Of making many books there is no end, and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

This is a response to my post about how I think the Baha'is are interpreting Revelation 5 in a misleading way? What exactly are you trying to say? I hope you're not saying that I'm doing "much" study. I do as little as possible. But having studied with Baha'is and Christians, and assumed they were telling me the truth, I now think it is best to do some "fact" checking on their claims. Which involves some "study". And yes, even that can be wearisome.

My number one claim against Christians is... Their claim that Isaiah 7:14 is about Jesus. None of the rest of the story has anything to do with Jesus.

Number one claim against the Baha'is? I'd have to say how they blow off the resurrection story of Jesus as being "symbolic." It may be false. The resurrection might very well have been a hoax, but in the gospel stories, they make it clear... Jesus came back to life.

I'd respect the Baha'is much more if they said that it was a hoax. And there is some rumor that the Baha'i Guardian, Shoghi Effendi, said that the body of Jesus was hidden.

So, Baha'is... is that true? Or just one of those rumors that got spread from some notes from some pilgrim?