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If God is loving and omnibenevolent why would God…
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
Spice
StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
No, I'm not saying you're doing too much investigating/study. I think all thiests, myself included, are easily bogged down in all the different prophets, churches, denominations, etc. and hold on too tightly sometimes. It reminds me of holding a bird in hand -- hold too tight and it dies. IMO, there are many schools of theological thought where the followers hold so tightly they strangle the beauty of faith. Trying to figure out Revelation takes away from living God's will TODAY.
Baha’is do not interpret the scriptures.
The unsealing of the Books is referred to in both Revelation and Daniel. The Guardian had this to say about the Book of Certitude.
Shoghi Effendi wrote about the Iqán:
Daniel is referring to the Books being sealed until the time of the end which correlates with the Books being opened by the Lion of the Tribe of Judah Whom Shoghi Effendi proclaims Is Baha’u’llah by stating His Book of Certitude unsealed the Books. All the Guardian’s interpretation not any Baha’i.
But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase." Daniel 12:4
"Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end." Daniel 12:9
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Okay, yeah... It's too bad that so many religions are built that way. To believe correctly and be a true believer the person is expected to believe it all.
Unfortunately, I think that is even happening with the Baha'i Faith. We can all live as one and be loving and kind to one another. But also respect and understand and appreciate the differences in the different religions.
And that's almost what Baha'is do. But ultimately, they believe their religion is the new truth for today. That no other religion can prevent the disasters that the world is heading for. Only by following the laws and teachings of the Baha'i Faith can we reach a lasting peace.
But I think if we follow the laws and teachings of most any of the major religions, we could have peace and unity. But who wants to live by some of those teachings and obey all of those laws? It's hard even for the strongest believers to obey them. Even though outwardly many of them try to appear as they do.
And I've been around Baha'is, and Christians, and I know they aren't keeping all the laws and following all the teachings. And if they aren't and can't, how are these laws and teachings going to accomplish bringing peace and unity?
So, instead of trying to be all holy and spiritual, what is the easiest thing to do? I think it's to go preach about how their religion is the truth... And that includes all of its dogmas, doctrines and beliefs. And since every religion has different beliefs and doctrines and things, they all argue between each other on who is right and who is lost and confused.
Oh, and that bird analogy... If you don't hold it tight enough the darn thing flies away. But what were we trying to hold it for anyway?
I don't know how that applies to religions like the Baha'i Faith and Christianity, but there must be something important there.
Take care Spice. It's always good to hear what you've got to say.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
What do you think it means when it says that Jesus said to touch him and see that he had flesh and bone and was not a ghost?
I'm sure you think something. And your interpretation is important to know. And it's probably based on your Baha'i beliefs. And my interpretation and opinion on what it means is probably going to be different. And here it is... I think the writer wanted to write something that dispels anybody's thought that Jesus wasn't physically alive... but was a spirit or some kind of vision. The writer wanted people to know that Jesus had come back to life.
Now do I believe that is true? Maybe, maybe not. But it becomes important for Christians to believe that he did.
And what books are being sealed? Are you claiming all the books of the Bible and NT were sealed? And then only unsealed by Baha'u'llah?
I don't see it. I think the prophecies in Daniel are what gets sealed. And the scroll in Revelation is what gets unsealed. And if the Baha'u'llah says otherwise, it makes it hard for me to believe the teachings of the Baha'i Faith.
But I can see how he says it. He wants to be able to interpret the Bible and the NT in a way to make it fit his teachings. And, of course, Baha'is believe his interpretations are what's true. Sorry, but I don't. I don't believe the "resurrection" was symbolic. I don't believe Ishmael was the son taken by Abraham to be sacrificed and lots and lots of other things.
You want to believe it, what can I say? Except, I wouldn't expect anything less of a Baha'is but to say they believe it all... without question. Same as how some Christians believe the whole Bible and NT without question. One of you, or both, has got to be wrong.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
On what basis do you believe that only the prophecies in Daniel are what got sealed, rather than the whole Bible?
On what basis do you believe that only the scroll in Revelation is what gets unsealed?
Even if Daniel 12 is not referring to the entire Bible being sealed up until the time of the end, that still does not man the Bahai Faith is wrong about what will happen in the end times, or wrong Baha’u’llah being the return of Christ.
What does Daniel chapter 12 mean?
This concludes an extensive prophecy given to Daniel (Daniel 10:1) in 536 BC. While standing near the Tigris River, Daniel sees an angelic figure (Daniel 10:4–6) who begins summarizing events which would occur between the fourth and second centuries BC. At the end of the prior chapter, those prophecies were transitioning towards a much longer view, reaching into the end times.
The celestial being, probably the angel Gabriel (Daniel 8:15–16; 9:21–22; Luke 1:26) makes another mention of Michael (Daniel 10:13, 21). He implies that Michael is the angel primarily concerned with the nation of Israel. His predictions involve a time of unprecedented hardship. This echoes remarks made by Jesus, and others, with respect to the "tribulation" and "great tribulation" at the end of history (Matthew 24:9–26). Some will follow God and find eternal life; others will reject God and experience everlasting shame. Daniel, for his part, is told to safeguard what he's been told, knowing that as the end comes closer, mankind's understanding will improve (Daniel 12:1–4).
What does Daniel chapter 12 mean? | BibleRef.com
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CG Didymus
Veteran Member
How does the Baha'i Faith interpret this...
Rev 22:10 Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near.
The prophecies in Daniel get "sealed". The scroll in Revelation gets "unsealed" and in the end of Revelation it says not to "seal" the prophesies in that scroll. But let's go back to Daniel... How accurate do Baha'is take the prophecies and stories in Daniel? It has his friends surviving being thrown into a furnace. And there is some question as to when the book of Daniel was written.
While some conservative scholars hold that Daniel existed and his book was written in the 6th century BCE, most scholars agree that Daniel is not a historical figure and that much of the book is a cryptic allusion to the reign of the 2nd century BCE Hellenistic king Antiochus IV Epiphanes.
And here's from the Britannica....The language of the book—part of which is Aramaic (2:4–7:28)—probably indicates a date of composition later than the Babylonian Exile (6th century BC). Numerous inaccuracies connected with the exilic period (no deportation occurred in 605 BC; Darius was a successor of Cyrus, not a predecessor; etc.) tend to confirm this judgment. Because its religious ideas do not belong to the 6th century BC, numerous scholars date Daniel in the first half of the 2nd century BC and relate the visions to the persecution of the Jews under Antiochus IV Epiphanes (175–164/163 BC).
So, when do Baha'is think? Totally accurate and written by Daniel in 6th century BC? Or... has inaccuracies and written centuries later and relates to the persecution by Antiochus Epiphanes? Of course, the Baha'i answer has to be the first choice. But what do you say to those scholars that think otherwise? They are completely wrong and have no reason to think such things? Sorry, but I get the feeling Baha'is are just as biased and prejudiced as Christians. They believe what they need to believe to make their religion true. The books got sealed. Ishmael was taken to be sacrificed. And Jesus died and did not physically resurrect.
Which is fine for you. But I don't believe it. You go by what you prophet and religions tells you is true. I go by what I find by just doing some basic, scratch the surface research and find contradictions between what Baha'is say is true and what might really be true.
With all due respect, why would Christians and those of the Bahai be biased and prejudiced but you are not?
So true. As a pastor, I spend little time on the book of Revelation because people are still needing faith for living for today! There is enough material out there that they can read if they are interested in that book of the Bible.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
That was a knock on Baha'is. They expect others, including Christians, to take an honest, unbiased, unprejudiced look at their teachings and their prophet. They believe that anyone that will do that will see that the Baha'i Faith is the new truth from God. It is the new revelation that is meant to fulfil all the promises made in all the other religions. They believe that people will see how their prophet is the "return" of Christ.
Now the biases and prejudices they say that Christians have is that they believe in the Bible and the NT much too literally. As you probably know they say that Jesus didn't rise physically... but spiritually. They believe his physical body died and stayed dead and by now has rotted away.
They think it is unscientific to believe a body can come back to life after being dead for three days. They also don't believe a physical body could have floated off into space. And I agree. Some Bible and NT stories are too fantastic to be believable. It has seas parting. Walking sticks turning into snakes, Jesus walking on water, and so many more. It sounds like religious myth to me.
Can Christians take the spiritual teachings from those stories and apply them without having to make those stories literal? Liberal Christians can. But what about those Born-Again, Fundamentalist Christians? I'd say no. Believing the Bible literally is an important part of what they believe. To them, if the Bible says it... it really happened. Like it says that Elijah also flew off into space.
You got your beliefs, and it helps you make sense of what's happening in the world. But when that type of Christian looks at people in the other religions, what do they see? Too many of them, or most of them, see people that have been fooled into believing things that aren't true. Their truth isn't seen as being true. But is seen as being a lie.
And actually, I kind of agree with Baha'is when they say that those types of Christians are biased and prejudiced against all those other religions. But I think Baha'is are just as biased and prejudiced against Born-Again Christians. And yes, I'm biased and prejudiced against both religions.
My qualifier is that both of you might be true... it's just that I don't think so. And I use some of the things Christians say about Baha'is to disqualify them. And I use some of the things that Baha'is say about Christians to disqualify them.
Both of your religions just got too many things that are expected to be believed and taken on "faith". They say Jesus is dead and didn't come back to life. They say Ishmael was taken by Abraham to be sacrificed. They say their prophet is related to Abraham. How do they know any of those things? Only because their prophet said so.
And then there's the Christians. A wandering star, a virgin birth based on an out of context verse in Isaiah, people coming out of their graves in Jerusalem? Why believe it? Only because that is what the Bible writers and the gospel writers said happened. As if they couldn't have been making things up and embellishing the stories. No, can't be. Not for the true Christian... it all has to be literally true.
And that's kind of the point of this thread, would a loving God make only what the most conservative, literal-believing Christians say is true? And again, I agree more with the Baha'is. Most all religions have truth in them. Where I disagree with the Baha'is, I think it was the people, probably the religious leaders, that made up the religions and told stories of prophets and God/men and their Gods. And not some "manifestation" that came and "revealed" the religion. Most of these "manifestations" were merely characters in those stories, not the ones that brought the story.
But those religious and spiritual stories are important to those people. But they can easily be picked apart and seen as false by people in other cultures that have their own religious stories. Stories that vary from people to people and place to place. Why do any of them have to be exactly the truth? Why do any of them have to be literally the truth.
Anyway, go ahead believe what you think is true. And, like I said, maybe it is the truth. But it sounds like a bunch of myths to me.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
But it says this...
Rev 22:6 The angel said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God who inspires the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place.”
7 “Look, I am coming soon! Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy written in this scroll.”
What's happening now, and what has happened is pretty important. It seems like we could be in the end-times. Jesus could be coming soon. Or... like the Baha'is believe, he has already come. And also, when you say the people are "needing" faith... faith in what? I assume faith in Jesus. But just how literal do you take the Bible and the NT? Are you more of liberal Christian, or lean more towards being a fundamental/conservative kind of Christian?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
What else is new?
No, Baha'is do not 'expect' anyone that will do that will see that the Baha'i Faith is the new truth from God.
Yes, we do believe that but we do not expect others to believe it. They may or may not believe it.
BTW, most Baha'is were formerly Christians as you would see it you ever went on Reddit Baha'i.
Thank you. Understand what you are saying and it is all true. My point was simply that the statements like unto: "But what about those Born-Again, Fundamentalist Christians? I'd say no. Believing the Bible literally is an important part of what they believe. To them, if the Bible says it... it really happened. Like it says that Elijah also flew off into space.” is simply a statement that holds the same thought as saying that “that interpretations is wrong and holds the hue of “it disqualifies them” (everyone not within that view).
The way I see it, everyone simply has their viewpoint and whatever that viewpoint is, it disqualifies other people. We all have views that disqualifies other views and certainly would be biased in the sense that they are looking at the world, trying to make sense out of it, within their own world view.
Yes, I believe he is coming soon (at least in what “soon” might mean in light of eternity). I believe what I said is trying to figure out and then spending all the time teaching on it doesn’t help people live life today.
For an example, (true story of a 17 year old) “I have a gun with two bullets. With the addicted husband that I have, I can kill my child and my pregnant self and not have them grow up in this rotten world”. She received Jesus as Lord and learned the spiritual principles that she ended up being sent through the US by L3Harris, remarried, and now owns a real-estate investment company. All through the spiritual principles she learned from the Bible.
That’s what I mean about faith for living life today. How to overcome the obstacles that come your way on a daily life. What happens in the book of Revelation (I believe and see it coming to pass pretty quickly) is going to happen… but we still need faith for today to live life to the fullest.
I don’t like labels because it creates assumptions. I could be liberal in one aspect and fundamental in another and be in the gray area in a third aspect.
There is such a thing as dreams in which we observe or act out things that seem real. But in an age of materialism everything is understood literally even though Jesus was often quoted to say ‘let those who have ears hear and eyes see’ We all have ears and eyes so what’s He saying here? When He said ‘let the dead bury the dead’ was He meaning for dead bodies to come out of the coffin to bury newly dead people?
As to seals and such we have the confirmation from Baha’u’llah that this Day is the one spoken about by all religions when humanity will finally end war and establish peace and from it will come universal love and brotherhood.
Today, the different religions shun one another, even killing one another so the teaching of Baha’u’llah to love and befriend all religions is desperately needed today right now. And He said the earth is but one country and we should consider ourselves as citizens of one world community. He abolishes boundaries and barriers which have for centuries kept people apart and opened wide the doors of love and oneness.
There is an urgent need in the world now for unity and oneness and to see each other as fellow humans and Baha’u’lla’s teachings tear down these barriers that are causing so much strife. It does not matter if people believe in differing interpretations. What matters is that they don’t cause prejudice or people to shun one another. No Messenger or Prophet of God ever taught people to hate but we see today the different religions shunning each other. Why?
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
You're seeing someone like Moses as being a "manifestation" of God. That would imply that the message he received from God was the latest information.
But built into that message was for the people to shun and kill people that had different religious beliefs... because they were told that all those other people and their religions were wrong... that they were following false Gods. They weren't even supposed to marry them. And God had them kill the women and children in some of the cities they conquered.
This is the roots of Christianity, Islam and the Baha'i Faith. Now the next religion in that progression, Christianity. They never accepted any other religion as being true. The Roman Church forced people to believe and even tortured people into converting. No other religion was acceptable.
How did they come to be like that? Was Islam any better? Now there is the Baha'i message of accepting all religions. But do Baha'is really accept all of them as being true? Or... do Baha'is believe that all of them have false beliefs mixed in with the "original" true beliefs? But what were these "original" beliefs?
Some Baha'is claim that there were some perfect original teachings, but where are they? All we have is teachings that do separate believers of the supposedly "true" religion from people that have different beliefs.
Now I do believe that putting aside our old religious beliefs that separate and divide us is a good thing. But it's because I believe those beliefs came from people, not God. But unlike Baha'is, I don't believe there ever was a "pure" original message that came directly from God through some "manifestation". I think the message was always tainted with the input and opinions and beliefs of the people... The people that wrote the stories. The stories that told about these supposed "manifestations" and about their Gods.
Anyway, this thread is about that problem. The gospels writers and the writers of the Bible and the NT made out their religion to be the one and only truth. And all we know about any of these supposed "manifestations", Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus... is what they told us in their writings.
How do Baha'is fix that? By claiming it never happened? That it's not true? By saying that "traditions" of men got added in? That it's the fault of the priests? It's in the Scriptures themselves. There is love and hate mixed in. There is being loving and kind mixed in with shunning and rejecting. But it's still there... even in the Baha'i Faith. Shun those that are covenant-breakers. Baha'u'llah says to put a mark on a thief and cast them out of the city or town.
And I know Baha'is don't believe the Ahmadiyya. So, who was Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to you? Were his claims true? Or was he a false prophet?
There's going to be some people that even Baha'is have separate from and say that they have false beliefs. But which religion, other than your own, do Baha'is believe is completely true? Baha'is believe all of them have some false beliefs mixed in. What do Baha'is do about that? Tell them, "Oh, by the way, Jesus is not coming back." Or, "You might think Jesus is the only way, but he's not."
By telling others the things you believe is going to separate them from you and you from them. What you gonna do? Probably tell them your truth and keep causing that separation to keep growing.
I know you want to accept all people no matter what religion they believe in... but can you really do it?
Dave Watchman
Active Member
Reads like you're well read, maybe better than me. But I still read it different.
If Jesus was just an ordinary Jewish male, merely adopted by God, none of this would work. We wouldn't be here now. He needed to be the only begotten, the only Son, actually born of the fabric of God.
I think it's not because, as you say, "God is envisaged as purest of pure spirit, incredibly remote, or, "as God and Jesus are one, so those who by becoming Christians make themselves one with Jesus, thereby through Jesus become one with God', it's because Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. It's because of that detail, Jesus was the only One that could step in the way of God's wrath and take the place of mankind's punishment for sin, which is death. Only Jesus could be the propitiation of sin itself.
This is proto-evangelism. The Adamic Covenant. Genesis 3:15. He will crush your head, and you will strike his heel, it's the basis for Christianity. Christ stepped in the way, shielded His People from death that day. This is why no man can come to the Father, except through Christ. The Woman gave birth to the Man child. God's People needed a Savior.
If it were as simple as you write, the OP wouldn't be asking. God could violate His own Rules, save everyone, and call it a day.
But Necessity was the Mother of Invention, as we are still caught up in the Devil's bargain.
Peaceful Sabbath.
No Divine Revelation from God ever commanded the followers to murder, hate or shun. But to love all people and even one’s enemies. The Ten Commandments is clear. In the Quran too only self defense is permitted but the laws of love and brotherhood is clear. From Krishna to Buddha all of Them taught loving kindness. All of Their spiritual teachings are in harmony and complement one another.
There is only one God Who reveals guidance and teachings for us for each age. It is the same God. He is the God of all religions. People have not fully understood that there is but one God that continues to send His Prophets and Messengers to us. There is but one sun yet some argue that the their sun is true and the sun of other days is false. So they say for example only the sun of Monday is the true sun but the sun of Tuesday, Wednesday and the rest of the week are false. They are not understanding that by rejecting the other ’suns’ they are in reality rejecting their own sun which is the same. We all worship the same God whether we call him by different names or use different prayers.
People have created division due to ego. Division and disunity are caused by ignorance. We are all fellow human beings but some like to feel important so they say their belief is superior.
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
Reddit Baha'i is an English forum, and I'm sure there are many Baha'is, from Hindu and Buddhism backgrounds for instance that don't know English, and of course there are many Baha'is in poor countries, without access to the internet besides. Many of those are in Latin America, and most of those are from a Christian background, and there are a lot of Baha'is in Africa, which have a mixed Christian, Muslim, and indigenous religion background there. I have no idea the percentage of those from from a Christian background around the world. I don't know or nor if most are from A Christian background, but odds are that might be true, considering how many are in Latin America which are still very much Christian. Religion may be waning in Western countries and Japan, but in the rest of the world, religion is not waning at all.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
I don't know which Bible you are reading, but here's a lot of killing go on in the name of the Lord.
1 Samuel 15:2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”
Numbers 21:1 When the Canaanite king of Arad, who lived in the Negev, heard that Israel was coming along the road to Atharim, he attacked the Israelites and captured some of them. 2 Then Israel made this vow to the Lord: “If you will deliver these people into our hands, we will totally destroy[a] their cities.” 3 The Lord listened to Israel’s plea and gave the Canaanites over to them. They completely destroyed them and their towns; so the place was named Hormah.
Numbers 31:1 The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites... 3 So Moses said to the people, “Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord’s vengeance on them... 7 They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every man... 15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
1 Kings 18:36 At the time of sacrifice, the prophet Elijah stepped forward and prayed: “Lord, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, let it be known today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant and have done all these things at your command. 37 Answer me, Lord, answer me, so these people will know that you, Lord, are God, and that you are turning their hearts back again.”
38 Then the fire of the Lord fell and burned up the sacrifice, the wood, the stones and the soil, and also licked up the water in the trench.
39 When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, “The Lord—he is God! The Lord—he is God!”
40 Then Elijah commanded them, “Seize the prophets of Baal. Don’t let anyone get away!” They seized them, and Elijah had them brought down to the Kishon Valley and slaughtered there.
All these people had their own religion and their own God's... But the God of Israel told his people that these were false Gods. And that justified that those people must be killed.
So, what do you do about those stories? The Bible clearly says that those religions were not from the one true God. But back then, there were many Gods... How do Baha'is interpret and explain that?
In Ugarit, the gods were called 'ilhm (elohim), or the children of El, a probable parallel to the the biblical "sons of God." The chief god, a progenitor of the universe, was El, also known as Elion (biblical El Elyon), who was the father of the divinities. In the Urgaritic material, El is the consort of Ashera, who is described as the "mother of 70 gods."
In the Urgaritic Baal cycle, Baal, the god of storms and fertility, earns his position as the champion and ruler of the gods by defeating the tyrannical Yam, the god of the sea, and later triumphing over Mot, the god of death. Yam had been placed over the other gods by El but ruled them tyrannically. Asherah offered herself as a sacrifice if Yam will ease his grip on her children. He agreed, but Baal boldly declared that he will defeat Yam, despite Yam's being endorsed by El. With the aid of magical weapons given to him by the divine craftsman Kothar-wa-Khasis, Baal is victorious. However, the god of death and the underworld, Mot, soon lures Baal to his own death in the desert, spelling drought and ruin for the land. Baal's sister/wife Anat retrieves his body and assaults Mot, ripping him to pieces and scattering his remains over the fields. El, meanwhile, has had a dream suggesting that Baal would be resurrected, which indeed takes place. However, Mot, too, had revived and mounted a new attack against Baal. After their titanic but indecisive battle, Mot finally bows before Baal, leaving Baal in possession of the land and the undisputed regent of the gods.