"if God talks to you, you have schizophrenia"

[Heyo]

BTW, the overwhelming majority of people who "hear God speaking to them," are not talking about hearing auditory voices. They are referring to dialogues that take place inside their own minds. This is neither unusual, nor worrisome.

Then why do they say they "hear god speaking to them"? The only other reason than mental illness, I can think of, is to deceive their audience that their message has an authority it can't have. But that would be malicious intention and I try to hold to Hanlon's Razor.
(And even if it was malicious intention, then the well meant advise to get their head examined becomes a proper insult ;-)

 

[Heyo]

The presence of 2 (or more) of the following, each present for a significant portion of time during a 1-month period (or less if successfully treated), with at least 1 of them being (1), (2), or (3): (1) delusions, (2) hallucinations, (3) disorganized speech,

 

[Aupmanyav]

Talk how???

Mental phone.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I do believe in the reality of receiving information from 'higher sources'.

Yeah, there are higher sources but no proof of their existence. Jesus said "O Father, etc. Mohammad got Quran over a long period of time. And Bahaollah was the image of God speaking through.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The short answer is that for someone to be mentally ill, they must be dysfunctional, so a person who hear's God's voice but is functional is not considered mentally ill.

No, many of them are not schizophrenic or psychotic. Actually, they may be the smartest of the lot, who feed on the gullibility of other people. They are plain charlatans, frauds and scamsters. And such people have existed in all times in the history of humans.

 

[stvdv]

Szasz wrote: "If you talk to God, you are praying; If God talks to you, you have schizophrenia

False

If the dead talk to you, you are a spiritualist; If you talk to the dead, you are a schizophrenic

Inconstent

Thanks: "inconstent" typo, inconsistent I meant

Consistent would be:

If you talk to God, you are praying;
If God talks to you, you have schizophrenia

If you talk to the dead, you are a spiritualist;
If the dead talk to you, you are a schizophrenic

Note: I don't agree with both though

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Then why do they say they "hear god speaking to them"? The only other reason than mental illness, I can think of, is to deceive their audience that their message has an authority it can't have. But that would be malicious intention and I try to hold to Hanlon's Razor.
(And even if it was malicious intention, then the well meant advise to get their head examined becomes a proper insult ;-)

I just had this same discussion with someone else in a different thread earlier this week, LOL. I feel like, here we go again.

First of all, I know what I'm talking about because I'm a licensed counselor. There are criteria for words like psychosis, delusion, schizophrenia. Simply having an internal dialogue inside your head with God or an angel or anything else is NOT enough to say that someone is mentally ill.

1. An internal dialogue inside your head is not the same thing as a hallucination. And this is not an uncommon occurance. Roughly 28% of the population say that God speaks to them.

2. For someone to be mentally ill, they must be dysfunctional. It is not dysfunctional to simply believe in leprechauns. A third of the Irish still believe in leprechauns but they are not mentally ill. Now if someone believed in a leprechaun that told them where its gold was and as a result started digging for gold in the local park and got arrested for vandalism--THAT would be a delusion, because as you can see in that example, they became dysfunctional.

In short, most of the people who say that God talks to them are highly functional. They work 40 hours a week, pay their bills, love their spouses, take care of their kids... We simply cannot say that they are mentally ill.

The DSM 5 (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, 5th edition) says: A mental disorder is a syndrome characterized by clinically significant disturbance in an individual's cognition, emotion regulation, or behavior that reflects a dysfunction in the psychological, biological, or developmental processes underlying mental functioning.

The DSM 5 definition of delusion is: “fixed beliefs that are not amenable to change in light of conflicting evidence”.

Basically, there is no evidence that God is not talking to these people.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You quoted me, but didn't reply. I'm not sure what to make of that.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

No, many of them are not schizophrenic or psychotic. Actually, they may be the smartest of the lot, who feed on the gullibility of other people. They are plain charlatans, frauds and scamsters. And such people have existed in all times in the history of humans.

Oh please. 28% of the population says that God speaks to them, and it is a source of personal spirituality. These are not con men we are talking about, but ordinary Joes.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Basically, there is no evidence that God is not talking to these people.

Just as there isn't any evidence that God is doing so?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Just as there isn't any evidence that God is doing so?

God can be neither proven nor disproven.

 

[Mock Turtle]

God can be neither proven nor disproven.

So where does that leave us - as to such voices?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

So where does that leave us - as to such voices?

As I already said, in order for someone to be considered mentally ill, they must be dysfunctional. The voice they hear must somehow make it more difficult for them to get along in the world. If they hear the voice of a leprechaun singing an Irish folksong and it simply makes them a happier person, we cannot say they are mentally ill. We leave them alone. If the leprechaun instructs them to go dig for gold on the white house lawn, then yes, we would then be talking about mental illness.

This is why people who see visions of the Virgin Mary, etc., are NOT considered mentally ill.

 

[Mock Turtle]

As I already said, in order for someone to be considered mentally ill, they must be dysfunctional. The voice they hear must somehow make it more difficult for them to get along in the world. If they hear the voice of a leprechaun singing an Irish folksong and it simply makes them a happier person, we cannot say they are mentally ill. We leave them alone.

This is why people who see visions of the Virgin Mary, etc., are NOT considered mentally ill.

Yes, but if someone says they believe in God, and hears voices as to such, are we to believe them? And when they commit a crime - God told me to do it - do we take this into consideration? Where does it lead? I know the differences between the behaviours that disrupt one's life or are more like compulsions as opposed to those that generally aren't, but how should others treat such beliefs? Not bothered until or unless they harm others?

 

[Heyo]

I just had this same discussion with someone else in a different thread earlier this week, LOL. I feel like, here we go again.

First of all, I know what I'm talking about because I'm a licensed counselor. There are criteria for words like psychosis, delusion, schizophrenia. Simply having an internal dialogue inside your head with God or an angel or anything else is NOT enough to say that someone is mentally ill.

1. An internal dialogue inside your head is not the same thing as a hallucination. And this is not an uncommon occurance. Roughly 28% of the population say that God speaks to them.

2. For someone to be mentally ill, they must be dysfunctional. It is not dysfunctional to simply believe in leprechauns. A third of the Irish still believe in leprechauns but they are not mentally ill. Now if someone believed in a leprechaun that told them where its gold was and as a result started digging for gold in the local park and got arrested for vandalism--THAT would be a delusion, because as you can see in that example, they became dysfunctional.

In short, most of the people who say that God talks to them are highly functional. They work 40 hours a week, pay their bills, love their spouses, take care of their kids... We simply cannot say that they are mentally ill.

The DSM 5 (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, 5th edition) says: A mental disorder is a syndrome characterized by clinically significant disturbance in an individual's cognition, emotion regulation, or behavior that reflects a dysfunction in the psychological, biological, or developmental processes underlying mental functioning.

The DSM 5 definition of delusion is: “fixed beliefs that are not amenable to change in light of conflicting evidence”.

Except when that fixed belief is of a religious nature. I know those definitions.

Basically, there is no evidence that God is not talking to these people.

And there are a lot of gods talking all kinds of bull****.

What we are discussing here is when someone becomes dysfunctional. I agree that we can exclude all those who use "god talked to me" as a figure of speech and don't really believe it themselves. It's the same as people who are reading their horoscope for the entertainment value.
But those are not the people who stand on a box or a pulpit or go on television to prophetise doom and gloom. When they do, I consider them as socially dysfunctional. (At least in my society, cultures vary.)

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Consider this quote:

View attachment 54241

To what extent is this statement true???

I say to a very great extent

If I were to come onto RF and tell everyone that God talks to me I would be considered schizophrenic, and my role on RF would be that of a person who is schizophrenic - I would become Schizophrenic as that is how this community would understand me, including those who routinely talk to God...

I like this quote, there is a lot going on with it

This is what this quote has made me think:

There are socially acceptable ways of experiencing God and that there are other ways, which result in you being considered mentally unwell

It's a matter of normality

And normality is a matter of safety in numbers!

Billions talk to God

Yet only a relatively tiny number of people experience God talking to them

By "talk" I mean "directly communicate" - not literally speaking words at someone

Those who get to decide what is healthy or unhealthy - what is spiritual experience or a psychotic episode - always try to make their way of experiencing reality the only healthy one, and medicalise other ways of experiencing the same reality

The religious establishment and the medical establishment stand united in this, in a bizarre alliance of science and faith that is very telling of the true social function of both these institutions!

Of course, the experience of God communicating with you can be a symptom of a severe mental illness

However, if you believe that God exists and listens to you then I don't think you should write off all such reported experiences so very quickly. I don't think that is a huge leap to make!

I think there is a wealth of anecdotal evidence that God communicates directly with some people in such a way that others would consider them unwell, although I concede that the majority of such cases are likely to be some kind of mental illness

And I mean direct experience - not an awesome sense of seeing God at work in the natural world or having an amazing euphoric spiritual experience whilst attending church, and so on

By "direct experience" I mean "communication"!

And by "talks to you" I mean "communicates with you" in a more general sense

Just because some such experiences can be put down to mental ill health doesn't mean all of them can!

I'll say this to any person who routinely talks to God: Just because he doesn't directly communicate back to you in particular doesn't mean he doesn't communicate with anyone!

I don't think you should be so quick to dismiss

Or should at least keep an open mind...

And for the record, I no longer believe that God personally communicates with me, as I once did. But that's another story...

According to Society:​

1. A one-way direct line to God = prayer = normal and healthy​
2. A two-way direct line to God = schizophrenia = abnormal and bad​

That is what I think this quote can be boiled down to!

I think that psychiatry and the religious establishment want humankind to dismiss those to whom God speaks

I think they want to silence God, as they cannot control what God has to say in the same way that they can control what people believe and what God may or may not have said in the past - they don't want their monopoly challenging!

They wish to preserve the Status Quo and keep God's new word from human ears:

They are basically putting fingers into the ears of humankind so it cannot hear, and are drowning out the voice of God with hymns and mindless popular music so that any new revelation is rejected, or dismissed, or ignored, or ridiculed...

That's my take on this quote, anyway

Edit: and no, I do not claim to have any new revelation for humankind

Then why do people accept that people in Biblical times including Jesus and the Apostles did speak with God or slightly later Mahomed, and that were not simply psychotic.
Why would we accept messages they received as the true word of God. But not believe the religious people in our own time.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

As I already said, in order for someone to be considered mentally ill, they must be dysfunctional. The voice they hear must somehow make it more difficult for them to get along in the world. If they hear the voice of a leprechaun singing an Irish folksong and it simply makes them a happier person, we cannot say they are mentally ill. We leave them alone. If the leprechaun instructs them to go dig for gold on the white house lawn, then yes, we would then be talking about mental illness.

This is why people who see visions of the Virgin Mary, etc., are NOT considered mentally ill.

by whom?
What is more likely that they really saw a vision of the Virgin Mary, or that they are suffering from some mental disorder?

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

When someone says things like:
“[Religious figure] said to me XYZ”
“[Religious figure] showed me XYZ”
“I was told/shown XYZ by [religious figure]”

…I think it good practice to ask more questions, because they don’t always mean that they hear [voices] or see [visions].

Not even when they elaborate on their experiences and say things like: “…a light, brighter than any light I had ever seen, beamed down from above…”, are they necessarily speaking in literal terms.

Some are, of course, but in my experience it is not less usual to come across those who are trying to describe ineffable things and emotions by means of metaphor.

Try for example to describe in words to someone else any epiphany that you yourself have had in life; not the conclusion you have drawn from it, but the actual moment and way by which you came to understand something that you previously did not, or understood entirely differently.
To do so without help of metaphor is a true challenge…


Humbly
Hermit

 

[Kooky]

He didn't like that either
From the same link:
" "mental illness" or "mental disorder" (the latter expression called by Szasz a "weasel term" for mental illness) "

So the wording he complained about is actually completely irrelevant to his point?
That sounds like a fakeout of an argument.

 

[George-ananda]

Yeah, there are higher sources but no proof of their existence. Jesus said "O Father, etc. Mohammad got Quran over a long period of time. And Bahaollah was the image of God speaking through.

Proof is not possible with today's scientific tools. What would even be called 'God'.

As to your examples I would say there is considerable truth to each of those claims and a hundred others including 'regular' people.