"if God talks to you, you have schizophrenia"

[Eddi]

Consider this quote:

To what extent is this statement true???

I say to a very great extent

If I were to come onto RF and tell everyone that God talks to me I would be considered schizophrenic, and my role on RF would be that of a person who is schizophrenic - I would become Schizophrenic as that is how this community would understand me, including those who routinely talk to God...

I like this quote, there is a lot going on with it

This is what this quote has made me think:

There are socially acceptable ways of experiencing God and that there are other ways, which result in you being considered mentally unwell

It's a matter of normality

And normality is a matter of safety in numbers!

Billions talk to God

Yet only a relatively tiny number of people experience God talking to them

By "talk" I mean "directly communicate" - not literally speaking words at someone

Those who get to decide what is healthy or unhealthy - what is spiritual experience or a psychotic episode - always try to make their way of experiencing reality the only healthy one, and medicalise other ways of experiencing the same reality

The religious establishment and the medical establishment stand united in this, in a bizarre alliance of science and faith that is very telling of the true social function of both these institutions!

Of course, the experience of God communicating with you can be a symptom of a severe mental illness

However, if you believe that God exists and listens to you then I don't think you should write off all such reported experiences so very quickly. I don't think that is a huge leap to make!

I think there is a wealth of anecdotal evidence that God communicates directly with some people in such a way that others would consider them unwell, although I concede that the majority of such cases are likely to be some kind of mental illness

And I mean direct experience - not an awesome sense of seeing God at work in the natural world or having an amazing euphoric spiritual experience whilst attending church, and so on

By "direct experience" I mean "communication"!

And by "talks to you" I mean "communicates with you" in a more general sense

Just because some such experiences can be put down to mental ill health doesn't mean all of them can!

I'll say this to any person who routinely talks to God: Just because he doesn't directly communicate back to you in particular doesn't mean he doesn't communicate with anyone!

I don't think you should be so quick to dismiss

Or should at least keep an open mind...

And for the record, I no longer believe that God personally communicates with me, as I once did. But that's another story...

According to Society:​

1. A one-way direct line to God = prayer = normal and healthy​
2. A two-way direct line to God = schizophrenia = abnormal and bad​

That is what I think this quote can be boiled down to!

I think that psychiatry and the religious establishment want humankind to dismiss those to whom God speaks

I think they want to silence God, as they cannot control what God has to say in the same way that they can control what people believe and what God may or may not have said in the past - they don't want their monopoly challenging!

They wish to preserve the Status Quo and keep God's new word from human ears:

They are basically putting fingers into the ears of humankind so it cannot hear, and are drowning out the voice of God with hymns and mindless popular music so that any new revelation is rejected, or dismissed, or ignored, or ridiculed...

That's my take on this quote, anyway

Edit: and no, I do not claim to have any new revelation for humankind

 

[Secret Chief]

The quote is better in context:

"Mental illness" is an expression, a metaphor that describes an offending, disturbing, shocking, or vexing conduct, action, or pattern of behavior, such as packaged under the wide-ranging term schizophrenia, as an "illness" or "disease". Szasz wrote: "If you talk to God, you are praying; If God talks to you, you have schizophrenia. If the dead talk to you, you are a spiritualist; If you talk to the dead, you are a schizophrenic." He maintained that, while people behave and think in disturbing ways, and those ways may resemble a disease process (pain, deterioration, response to various interventions), this does not mean they actually have a disease. To Szasz, disease can only mean something people "have", while behavior is what people "do". Diseases are "malfunctions of the human body, of the heart, the liver, the kidney, the brain" while "no behavior or misbehavior is a disease or can be a disease. That's not what diseases are."

- Thomas Szasz - Wikipedia

 

[Estro Felino]

The second season of Joan of Arcadia is about this.
Joan of Arcadia is the show that changed my life. It was a eye-opener.
It is incredibly deep. And they made it because these people do exist. And they are not schizophrenic, but they have the gift.
It is very difficult to explain it how. In Italian I would be able to explain it perfectly.
But what I can say is that it is not schizophrenia.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I will go with Wikipedia. I am not listing associated symptoms. Wikipedia mentions many.

Schizophrenia is a mental disorder characterized by continuous or relapsing episodes of psychosis. Major symptoms include hallucinations (typically hearing voices), delusions, paranoia, and disorganized thinking.
Psychosis is an abnormal condition of the mind that results in difficulties determining what is real and what is not real. Symptoms may include delusions and hallucinations.
Deception or falsehood is an act or statement which misleads, hides the truth, or promotes a belief, concept, or idea that is not true. It is often done for personal gain or advantage. Deception can involve dissimulation, propaganda and sleight of hand as well as distraction, camouflage or concealment. There is also self-deception, as in bad faith. It can also be called, with varying subjective implications, beguilement, deceit, bluff, mystification, ruse, or subterfuge.

 

[Aštra’el]

Perhaps in some peoples’ eyes. Not mine.

 

[Moonjuice]

I do not think that if you think you hear God speaking to you, there are only two available explanations: A) God is speaking to you or B) You have a mental illness like Schizophrenia.

I'm convinced that for the most part, most people who claim "god is speaking to me" are simply referring to their own internal voice. They haven't figured out yet that your inner voice is coming directly from your own brain and its not supernatural. It is you imagining what you think God would tell you at a given time, not God actually speaking to you inside your brain.

There is a really interesting book called "Why we believe in God(s)" that discusses this and the brain's ability to have these internal imaginary conversations. Pretty fascinating stuff.

Who hasn't been to a job interview, where you are either verbally or internally rehearsing how you are going to respond to the interviewers questions while you are driving to your appointment? Not only can you invent the interviewers voice in your own mind, but you can imagine the question the interviewer is asking, your response, this persons response to your response and your response to this persons response to your response! Pretty sure the interviewer you are imagining is not god, but the concept is the same.

The only difference is the setting. If you are reading the bible, the inner voice immediately becomes god. If you are driving to an interview, the inner voice immediately becomes the interviewer. If you are thinking of your mother, the inner voice immediately becomes your mothers voice in your head.

I'm curious how people are able to tell the difference between an actual god speaking to them, or their own internal voice imaging what god would say?

 

[Brian2]

Consider this quote:

View attachment 54241

To what extent is this statement true???

I say to a very great extent

If I were to come onto RF and tell everyone that God talks to me I would be considered schizophrenic, and my role on RF would be that of a person who is schizophrenic - I would become Schizophrenic as that is how this community would understand me, including those who routinely talk to God...

I like this quote, there is a lot going on with it

This is what this quote has made me think:

There are socially acceptable ways of experiencing God and that there are other ways, which result in you being considered mentally unwell

It's a matter of normality

And normality is a matter of safety in numbers!

Billions talk to God

Yet only a relatively tiny number of people experience God talking to them

By "talk" I mean "directly communicate" - not literally speaking words at someone

Those who get to decide what is healthy or unhealthy - what is spiritual experience or a psychotic episode - always try to make their way of experiencing reality the only healthy one, and medicalise other ways of experiencing the same reality

The religious establishment and the medical establishment stand united in this, in a bizarre alliance of science and faith that is very telling of the true social function of both these institutions!

Of course, the experience of God communicating with you can be a symptom of a severe mental illness

However, if you believe that God exists and listens to you then I don't think you should write off all such reported experiences so very quickly. I don't think that is a huge leap to make!

I think there is a wealth of anecdotal evidence that God communicates directly with some people in such a way that others would consider them unwell, although I concede that the majority of such cases are likely to be some kind of mental illness

And I mean direct experience - not an awesome sense of seeing God at work in the natural world or having an amazing euphoric spiritual experience whilst attending church, and so on

By "direct experience" I mean "communication"!

And by "talks to you" I mean "communicates with you" in a more general sense

Just because some such experiences can be put down to mental ill health doesn't mean all of them can!

I'll say this to any person who routinely talks to God: Just because he doesn't directly communicate back to you in particular doesn't mean he doesn't communicate with anyone!

I don't think you should be so quick to dismiss

Or should at least keep an open mind...

And for the record, I no longer believe that God personally communicates with me, as I once did. But that's another story...

According to Society:​

1. A one-way direct line to God = prayer = normal and healthy​
2. A two-way direct line to God = schizophrenia = abnormal and bad​

That is what I think this quote can be boiled down to!

I think that psychiatry and the religious establishment want humankind to dismiss those to whom God speaks

I think they want to silence God, as they cannot control what God has to say in the same way that they can control what people believe and what God may or may not have said in the past - they don't want their monopoly challenging!

They wish to preserve the Status Quo and keep God's new word from human ears:

They are basically putting fingers into the ears of humankind so it cannot hear, and are drowning out the voice of God with hymns and mindless popular music so that any new revelation is rejected, or dismissed, or ignored, or ridiculed...

That's my take on this quote, anyway

Edit: and no, I do not claim to have any new revelation for humankind

But you don't have to be schizophrenic to hear and be led by God. If you are led by God you are a child of God. Romans 8:14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
But yes many have fingers in their ears, sometimes their own and sometimes the fingers of others.

 

[oldbadger]

Consider this quote:

View attachment 54241

To what extent is this statement true???

I say to a very great extent

If I were to come onto RF and tell everyone that God talks to me I would be considered schizophrenic, and my role on RF would be that of a person who is schizophrenic - I would become Schizophrenic as that is how this community would understand me, including those who routinely talk to God...

I like this quote, there is a lot going on with it

This is what this quote has made me think:

There are socially acceptable ways of experiencing God and that there are other ways, which result in you being considered mentally unwell

It's a matter of normality

And normality is a matter of safety in numbers!

Billions talk to God

Yet only a relatively tiny number of people experience God talking to them

By "talk" I mean "directly communicate" - not literally speaking words at someone

Those who get to decide what is healthy or unhealthy - what is spiritual experience or a psychotic episode - always try to make their way of experiencing reality the only healthy one, and medicalise other ways of experiencing the same reality

The religious establishment and the medical establishment stand united in this, in a bizarre alliance of science and faith that is very telling of the true social function of both these institutions!

Of course, the experience of God communicating with you can be a symptom of a severe mental illness

However, if you believe that God exists and listens to you then I don't think you should write off all such reported experiences so very quickly. I don't think that is a huge leap to make!

I think there is a wealth of anecdotal evidence that God communicates directly with some people in such a way that others would consider them unwell, although I concede that the majority of such cases are likely to be some kind of mental illness

And I mean direct experience - not an awesome sense of seeing God at work in the natural world or having an amazing euphoric spiritual experience whilst attending church, and so on

By "direct experience" I mean "communication"!

And by "talks to you" I mean "communicates with you" in a more general sense

Just because some such experiences can be put down to mental ill health doesn't mean all of them can!

I'll say this to any person who routinely talks to God: Just because he doesn't directly communicate back to you in particular doesn't mean he doesn't communicate with anyone!

I don't think you should be so quick to dismiss

Or should at least keep an open mind...

And for the record, I no longer believe that God personally communicates with me, as I once did. But that's another story...

According to Society:​

1. A one-way direct line to God = prayer = normal and healthy​
2. A two-way direct line to God = schizophrenia = abnormal and bad​

That is what I think this quote can be boiled down to!

I think that psychiatry and the religious establishment want humankind to dismiss those to whom God speaks

I think they want to silence God, as they cannot control what God has to say in the same way that they can control what people believe and what God may or may not have said in the past - they don't want their monopoly challenging!

They wish to preserve the Status Quo and keep God's new word from human ears:

They are basically putting fingers into the ears of humankind so it cannot hear, and are drowning out the voice of God with hymns and mindless popular music so that any new revelation is rejected, or dismissed, or ignored, or ridiculed...

That's my take on this quote, anyway

Edit: and no, I do not claim to have any new revelation for humankind

I don't think that Thomas Szasz thought this through.

I read his claim and your intro sentences and I afraid that you and Tom have lost the plot on this, probably because you haven't considered all the views about God.

God is massively vast and without doubt is unaware of this tiny heap of matter, but God's manager is very much here and very much in control and very much talking to anybody who wants to listen.

Before you call an ambulance for me, let me explain how God's manager, prophet, whatever, talks to me and anyone. The absolute representative of God here who everybody bows to eventually is Mother Nature, and she can even talk to you..... True?

You'd better believe it!

 

[Magical Wand]

Consider this quote:

View attachment 54241

To what extent is this statement true???

Well, that's not necessarily true. For one thing, as a Christian, I would say it is possible that God talked to that person since the Bible is full with such examples. But a brain disease isn't necessary to explain this phenomenon (supposing it is not supernatural).

C. M. Lorkowski gave a nice explanation that accounts for ordinary cases (e.g., in which the person has no brain disease) of mystical experiences:

"There is always a commonly experienced reasonable explanation for private religious experiences – the fact that the mind can deceive itself via hallucination. ... Though mental health disorders can still explain religious experiences coming from such deliberate methods, there exists another type of natural explanations for them. A hypothesis that has gained much traction is that deep prayer and meditation can place one in a highly suggestable, quasi-hypnotic state in which one can, in essence, self-hypnotize without being aware of it, fabricating an invented experience without realizing it. Self-hypnosis in such circumstances has been observed and documented. As such, considerations become similar to the case of hallucinations above. Self-hypnosis becomes a commonly experienced and reasonable explanation. Therefore, the defender of the religious experience has an obligation to eliminate this natural account before positing the experience as genuinely supernatural. But as was the case with various causes of hallucinations, it is not clear how an explanation of this sort could be eliminated with any reasonable degree of certainty." (A Survey of the Rational Rejection of Religious Belief, pp. 158, 159-160)​

 

[Magical Wand]

I do not think that if you think you hear God speaking to you, there are only two available explanations: A) God is speaking to you or B) You have a mental illness like Schizophrenia.

I'm convinced that for the most part, most people who claim "god is speaking to me" are simply referring to their own internal voice. They haven't figured out yet that your inner voice is coming directly from your own brain and its not supernatural. It is you imagining what you think God would tell you at a given time, not God actually speaking to you inside your brain.

There is a really interesting book called "Why we believe in God(s)" that discusses this and the brain's ability to have these internal imaginary conversations. Pretty fascinating stuff.

Who hasn't been to a job interview, where you are either verbally or internally rehearsing how you are going to respond to the interviewers questions while you are driving to your appointment? Not only can you invent the interviewers voice in your own mind, but you can imagine the question the interviewer is asking, your response, this persons response to your response and your response to this persons response to your response! Pretty sure the interviewer you are imagining is not god, but the concept is the same.

The only difference is the setting. If you are reading the bible, the inner voice immediately becomes god. If you are driving to an interview, the inner voice immediately becomes the interviewer. If you are thinking of your mother, the inner voice immediately becomes your mothers voice in your head.

I'm curious how people are able to tell the difference between an actual god speaking to them, or their own internal voice imaging what god would say?

I have this book, but haven't read it yet. Now I'm interested in reading it.

 

[Moonjuice]

I have this book, but haven't read it yet. Now I'm interested in reading it.

Oh cool. Its a fast read, kept me interested from start to finish.

 

[syo]

To what extent is this statement true???

Talk how???

 

[sun rise]

There are socially acceptable ways of experiencing God and that there are other ways, which result in you being considered mentally unwell

Of course society has standards. But the question is what is real no matter what society says.

By "talk" I mean "directly communicate" - not literally speaking words at someone

If you hear words, how do you know the origin is God? You might be psychic and hearing words from astral creatures.If the voice says it is God, how do you know that's the truth? Maybe the speaker is not and is trying to mess with you for some reason.

I would personally distrust any such words because there's no way to know from whence they came.

Speaking only for myself, the messages I've had from the Divine came not in words but instead through my "heart" in silently knowing something I should do.

I don't think that Thomas Szasz thought this through.

When I was studying psychology many years ago, Szasz was one whose ideas had freshness and was thus debated. His libertarian opposition to coercion was one that many accepted.

Subsequently we've learned a lot more about the functioning of the human brain and studies are ongoing. So what society might label as psychotic will be replaced by medical science findings at some point.

 

[Magical Wand]

Consider this quote:

View attachment 54241

I knew I've heard this before.

 

[George-ananda]

I think if someone says 'God talks to them' I guess I would want to hear more and ask "what do you mean by 'God'? What do you mean by 'talk'?

I do believe in the reality of receiving information from 'higher sources'.

 

[oldbadger]

When I was studying psychology many years ago, Szasz was one whose ideas had freshness and was thus debated. His libertarian opposition to coercion was one that many accepted.

Subsequently we've learned a lot more about the functioning of the human brain and studies are ongoing. So what society might label as psychotic will be replaced by medical science findings at some point.

Most interesting........ Are you a psychologist today?
About psychosis being 'adjusted' by medical science.
In the few years leading up to 2014 my wife had a most unusual condition. She might be sitting quietly watching a television program when she would suddenly jump up from her chair and rush about the place, cleaning an area maybe, or turning through clothes drawers...... all quite unusual behaviour.
Psychological? No. It was all Physical. It wasn't until 2014 in a Clinical Decisions ward that a young doctor who had just been on a course about tumours on adrenal glands was amazed to suggest, 'I think I've found a Phaeo!' He had. Scans found the tumour and my wife was raced off to Kings College Hospital where a Phaeo-Chromo-Cytoma team handled the very rare cases that were discovered in Southern England. They saved her.
Each adrenal climax causes a person to feel the same emotions as if they are diving out of an aircraft on a first parachute jump.

 

[Moonjuice]

I do believe in the reality of receiving information from 'higher sources'.

Reality? Has there ever been information that has been proven to be received from "higher sources"? What information? What higher sources?

 

[1213]

...If I were to come onto RF and tell everyone that God talks to me I would be considered schizophrenic, and my role on RF would be that of a person who is schizophrenic -...

it is weird why it is so, how can they know did God really speak to the person, because they didn't hear it?

 

[George-ananda]

Reality? Has there ever been information that has been proven to be received from "higher sources"? What information? What higher sources?

In my worldview there are a myriad of higher planes and dimensions inhabited by a myriad of beings. In their loving benevolence some very high spiritual plane beings can ‘download’ thoughts to humans with the intention of aiding the humans spiritual advancement.

 

[Moonjuice]

In my worldview there are a myriad of higher planes and dimensions inhabited by a myriad of beings. In their loving benevolence some very high spiritual plane beings can ‘download’ thoughts to humans with the intention of aiding the humans spiritual advancement.

So that would be a "no" then?