If Hell is a place of eternal torment

[Meow Mix]

For the same reason my life becomes hell when I choose to refuse to accept the reality of things that seem inconvenient to me.
I'll be forced to struggle and suffer forever.
It's just a natural consequence.
Sure, theoretically speaking God can magically get me out of that situation but He doesn't have to.
Does this make Him a monster?
To many it does.
But to me it really depends on how well you accept the reality of things and how well you can accept that life isn't all about what people want.
But whether you think Him a monster or not doesn't matter, grass will remain grass and the sky will remain the sky and the color green will remain the color green, whether you like it or prefer to give it different names or classifications or not.

Whether the ones go to Hell out of genuine nonbelief or not I don't know.
Nor am I sure I am worthy to go to paradise, even though I believe I believe.
It seems cruel if people go to Hell for not knowing better or feel they are not strong enough to act better.
The kind of nonbelievers(though there's plenty of such people in religious circles as well) I might feel the urge to gloat if they end up in that place(Hell) are the ones who take great joy in saying and doing things to make others feel bad and uncomfortable so that the worst in them will be brought out and and negative biases about them can be confirmed.
In a way it would also make sense to me that they cannot get out of that place, as I've noticed that those who take joy in mocking others and pointing out their mistakes to make themselves feel righteous and superior, rarely express the ability to face their own mistakes, especially towards the people they consider morally or intellectually inferior.
This inability to face the truth makes it impossible for them to be "forgiven", because they cannot be corrected.

I see. The OP wasn't saying God wouldn't exist if God is a monster, just asking how people would reconcile the existence of Hell with not believing God is a monster for allowing such a place.

How does "refusing to accept the reality of a situation" lead to literal eternal torment? What do you imagine Hell to be in your worldview? Not a literal lake of fire or anything like that?

 

[We Never Know]

Discussing specifics is how we point out whether a concept is logically coherent or not. The reason I asked is because you can't have an immovable object and an irresistible force at the same time and in the same respect.

If one being wants an object to stay still and the other being wants the object to move, what happens? No scenario leads to them both being omnipotent.

You may know if a god has limits or not but I don't. If gods do exists, what I think, know or can even imagine isn't even close to what they could be.

 

[Meow Mix]

You may know if a god has limits or not but I don't. If gods do exists, what I think, know or can even imagine isn't even close to what they could be.

But using reason, we can know some things even if gods are outside of our weight bracket. For instance, we can know that even an omnipotent being couldn't make a married bachelor or a Euclidean circle that is a Euclidean square at the same time and in the same respect. Gods must still be logically coherent.

 

[We Never Know]

But using reason, we can know some things even if gods are outside of our weight bracket. For instance, we can know that even an omnipotent being couldn't make a married bachelor or a Euclidean circle that is a Euclidean square at the same time and in the same respect. Gods must still be logically coherent.

I disagree. You cant reason about something that could be above and beyond all you know or understand.
For example if a god created everything we know and see out of nothing then created man from dirt and a woman from has rib, reason that out.

 

[Meow Mix]

I disagree. You cant reason about something that could be above and beyond all you know or understand.
For example if a god created everything we know and see out of nothing then created man from dirt and a woman from has rib, reason that out.

Creation isn't illogical though, it's internally consistent and coherent. God could do things like make gravity repel instead of attract and that would still be coherent. But creating a Euclidean circle that is a Euclidean square at the same time and in the same respect isn't possible because it's incoherent: it's not even that the statement "God could make a square-circle" is false, it's that the statement doesn't even mean anything (it has referents that are possible).

Omnipotence is generally understood by even theologians to mean the capacity to actualize any logically possible state of affairs. This is why the old canard "can God make a rock so big he can't lift it" never gets off the ground (because it is asking something logically incoherent).

Logical coherence isn't about what we can fully understand: we don't have to know how omnipotence can reverse gravity or make a woman out of a rib to know that it's at least not incoherent. It might be fantastic, but not incoherent.

 

[firedragon]

If Hell is a place of eternal torment, do you think it is good that God allows a place like this to exist?

How do you reconcile finite crimes with infinite punishments?

What is your theory of justice: for instance, Hell seems purely retributive: since someone is ostensibly there forever, there could be no rehabilitative purposes for it.

What about belief? Some worldviews believe that people will go to Hell for mere nonbelief in a savior or religion in general. How do you reconcile that without thinking your god is terrible?

Basically, for those that believe in Hell as a place of eternal torment, can you help me understand why you believe this is real, and why it doesn't cause you to think your god is a monster?

You are hell-bent aren't you sis???? I dont know if I am qualified to answer your questions, but I can respond to them. Ill tell you what, I will try and put my theology hat on and take an approach of very classical thinking on this matter.

1. From a anthropomorphic perspective which is limited in understanding the universe and the future, I think that its good to exist if it does.

2. We don't know that about infinite punishment.

3. You have decided that those who are supposedly in hell stay there forever. No one knows.

4. Some believe that one would go to hell for just not believing what you believe. So what you are basically saying is some say "my way or the highway". Thats wrong. The belief is wrong.

5. First of all, you are coming from a different understanding and you think people are just put in hell for all kinds of reasons and they remain there forever. I come from a whole different perspective and at the moment I am purely using old theology, not philosophy. So you perceive God as a monster based on your perspective, and I view God as a transcended being who is the creator and I have no clue about anything in comparison.

 

[We Never Know]

Creation isn't illogical though, it's internally consistent and coherent. God could do things like make gravity repel instead of attract and that would still be coherent. But creating a Euclidean circle that is a Euclidean square at the same time and in the same respect isn't possible because it's incoherent: it's not even that the statement "God could make a square-circle" is false, it's that the statement doesn't even mean anything (it has referents that are possible).

Omnipotence is generally understood by even theologians to mean the capacity to actualize any logically possible state of affairs. This is why the old canard "can God make a rock so big he can't lift it" never gets off the ground (because it is asking something logically incoherent).

Logical coherence isn't about what we can fully understand: we don't have to know how omnipotence can reverse gravity or make a woman out of a rib to know that it's at least not incoherent. It might be fantastic, but not incoherent.

How can we assign words to describe a god if we cant even understand what a god is or could be?

According to what we think we know, we think we can see about 5% of the universe. Of that 5% we think we have explored about 3%. Which leaves 97% unknown.

Is there other life in the universe, we 100% don't know.

Are there multiple universe's? We 100% don't know.

Does a god(s) exist? We 100% don't know.

We know a lot in our little world but in reality we don't know much of anything compared to what might exist.

 

[Truthseeker]

That's dualism, like in Zoroastrianism. It excludes an all powerful and all benevolent sole God above all.

Though Ahura Mazda has no equal contesting force, Angra Mainyu (destructive spirit/mentality), whose forces are born from Aka Manah (evil thought), is considered the main adversarial force of the religion, standing against Spenta Mainyu (creative spirit/mentality)

Zoroastrianism - Wikipedia.

 

[Meow Mix]

You are hell-bent aren't you sis???? I dont know if I am qualified to answer your questions, but I can respond to them. Ill tell you what, I will try and put my theology hat on and take an approach of very classical thinking on this matter.

1. From a anthropomorphic perspective which is limited in understanding the universe and the future, I think that its good to exist if it does.

2. We don't know that about infinite punishment.

3. You have decided that those who are supposedly in hell stay there forever. No one knows.

4. Some believe that one would go to hell for just not believing what you believe. So what you are basically saying is some say "my way or the highway". Thats wrong. The belief is wrong.

5. First of all, you are coming from a different understanding and you think people are just put in hell for all kinds of reasons and they remain there forever. I come from a whole different perspective and at the moment I am purely using old theology, not philosophy. So you perceive God as a monster based on your perspective, and I view God as a transcended being who is the creator and I have no clue about anything in comparison.

I am very persistent sometimes. I do want to say that I know not everybody believes the stuff I was talking about in OP, I was directing OP at people that do believe those things though.

If Hell is not eternal that seems much more just. If people don't go to Hell for mere nonbelief, that also seems much more just. These ideas are much less problematic. But I was asking those who do believe in those things.

 

[Meow Mix]

How can we assign words to describe a god if we cant even understand what a god is or could be?

According to what we think we know, we think we can see about 5% of the universe. Of that 5% we think we have explored about 3%. Which leaves 97% unknown.

Is there other life in the universe, we 100% don't know.

Are there multiple universe's? We 100% don't know.

Does a god(s) exist? We 100% don't know.

We know a lot in our little world but in reality we don't know much of anything compared to what might exist.

Indeed, but we can know that anything that exists out there will be logically coherent. There will not be any horses that are basketballs at the same time and in the same respect. This is what I'm saying. We can know that God is logically coherent even if we don't know much else.

 

[We Never Know]

Indeed, but we can know that anything that exists out there will be logically coherent. There will not be any horses that are basketballs at the same time and in the same respect. This is what I'm saying. We can know that God is logically coherent even if we don't know much else.

Logically compared to what?
For example if there is other life out there but it isn't carbon based or in anyway similar to what we know, would we know it? Could we understand it? Would we recognize it?

 

[Deeje]

Not if there are logical inconsistencies though. There can be two very powerful beings, just not two omnipotent beings.

This is entirely correct IMO. Omnipotence means "all powerful" and there can only be one....the personage described in Psalm 83:18.....which in most Bible translations is completely meaningless...
"that they may know that you alone,
whose name is the Lord,
are the Most High over all the earth."

God's name is not "the Lord" as anyone can see from the Jewish Tabakh...
"וְיֵֽדְע֗וּ כִּי־אַתָּ֬ה שִׁמְךָ֣ יְהֹוָ֣ה לְבַדֶּ֑ךָ עֶ֜לְי֗וֹן עַל־כָּל־הָאָֽרֶץ:"

God's name is יְהֹוָ֣ה ......Yahweh...Jehovah. Any wonder people get confused about who God is....

"There are many so called gods" in the world according to the Bible, (1 Corinthians 8:5-6) but there is only one true God......but the devil is a "god" as well, (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) and he has a degree of power, but uses deception very well. His actual power is nothing close to the power that Jehovah possesses. So why does God allow him to mess up the world like he has?

That is a question I asked many years ago before the world got to the dreadful state that it is in now.....and the Bible answers that question very well IMO.

At the very beginning of man's existence there was just one God and the prospects for the future of his creation seemed to be all good......BUT......waiting in the wings, a spirit being with ambitions to become a god himself, saw an opportunity to flex his deceptive muscles to see if he could poach worshippers away from the true God. Could Jehovah have just quashed that rebellion right there and then? Yep.....so why didn't he?

Because the 'wannabe god' never challenged God's power....he challenged Jehovah's sovereignty by implying that his rules were unfair and that he was preventing the humans from being like he was....in possession of all knowledge.....so, as free willed beings, both the human and angelic children of God needed to know if that was true.....or not. There was only one way to find out.....allow the interloper to exercise his influence over mankind and see if they would indeed be better off with the knowledge that they wanted.....to decide for themselves what was good and what was bad....so how are we going so far under the influence of this god and his minions, fellow angels whom he was able to lure away obviously with similar deceptive thinking?

There was a time limit set and things were allowed to go as far as the devil wanted within reason. On a few occasions God stepped in with adjustments to the activities of this devil and his demons, but by and large he allowed them free reign to prove their case....so have we been better off deciding what is good and bad for ourselves? Would we have been happier if we had just listened to our wise Creator who knew better than we did what a knowledge of evil would introduce into the world? He tried to tell us....but it was more effective to "show" us.....all of us, just where an abuse of free will leads.

Within one generation of their decision to separate from God, a murderer was produced.....such is the power of sin.....and we have been on a downward spiral ever since. Atrocities were committed in the name of God and the pretender always portrayed him as the bad guy....he still does.

What was to take place when the time limit was reached? Records were kept regarding outcomes and results of the abuse of free will down through history, which would provide legal precedents for all time to come. There would never be a need in the future for any rebel to try this again.....There was also a record of those who actually wanted to do the right thing by God and obey his laws......but humans have now reached a state where global extinction of all living things has become a real possibility.....so has getting a divorce from God worked out well for anyone?
Has godless science taken us into a secure future....or are we worse off because of their inventions? Would be have technology and abilities to cause mass destruction if it were not for science? And on the political front, are we better off under man's rule? We are still fighting useless wars in this 21st century!

Do we understand what we lost when our first parents decided that they wanted their independence from God?
They lost their paradise home....they lost all the free food that he had provided for them....they lost God's favor and protection from any of the things that could harm them, like the natural disasters that are plaguing the planet right now in one place after another...mostly due to human mismanagement of the earth and its greedy use of its resources.

Their knowledge of evil soon became evil acts and humans have been harming each other ever since and whining about how unfair God is for demanding punishment for their willful disobedience.

The Creator is about to hold the world to an accounting and still people will shake their fist at Him and still want to live life their own way...and on their own terms. But life was never given unconditionally in the first place.....it was a gift, but continuing to live life to its fullest enjoyment came at a cost.....it was conditional with a small limitation on human freedom. Was it unfair of God to demand that? Or is it a requirement for the many to enjoy life here, that the few who may want to live immoral lives, or who want to rob the world of peace and security, are evicted?

It says in the scriptures that God never does anything without first warning people of his intentions and giving them a choice about their actions. He does this through his earthly servants....but if we take the example of Noah, whom Jesus used to illustrate a similar situation that was to happen again, (Matthew 24:37-39) we will see that God's servants were seldom taken seriously and people ignored the warnings and suffered the consequences. According to Matthew 24:14, God has been giving people this information for a long time, but true to their nature it has been ignored and ridiculed.

If the wannabe god knows he is going down, and that there is not a thing he can do to stop it, then he is going to try and take as many down with him as he can.....the question is...will we be one of them?

That is how I see it.

 

[We Never Know]

This is entirely correct IMO. Omnipotence means "all powerful" and there can only be one....the personage described in Psalm 83:18.....which in most Bible translations is completely meaningless...
"that they may know that you alone,
whose name is the Lord,
are the Most High over all the earth."

God's name is not "the Lord" as anyone can see from the Jewish Tabakh...
"וְיֵֽדְע֗וּ כִּי־אַתָּ֬ה שִׁמְךָ֣ יְהֹוָ֣ה לְבַדֶּ֑ךָ עֶ֜לְי֗וֹן עַל־כָּל־הָאָֽרֶץ:"

God's name is יְהֹוָ֣ה ......Yahweh...Jehovah. Any wonder people get confused about who God is....

"There are many so called gods" in the world according to the Bible, (1 Corinthians 8:5-6) but there is only one true God......but the devil is a "god" as well, (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) and he has a degree of power, but uses deception very well. His actual power is nothing close to the power that Jehovah possesses. So why does God allow him to mess up the world like he has?

That is a question I asked many years ago before the world got to the dreadful state that it is in now.....and the Bible answers that question very well IMO.

At the very beginning of man's existence there was just one God and the prospects for the future of his creation seemed to be all good......BUT......waiting in the wings, a spirit being with ambitions to become a god himself, saw an opportunity to flex his deceptive muscles to see if he could poach worshippers away from the true God. Could Jehovah have just quashed that rebellion right there and then? Yep.....so why didn't he?

Because the 'wannabe god' never challenged God's power....he challenged Jehovah's sovereignty by implying that his rules were unfair and that he was preventing the humans from being like he was....in possession of all knowledge.....so, as free willed beings, both the human and angelic children of God needed to know if that was true.....or not. There was only one way to find out.....allow the interloper to exercise his influence over mankind and see if they would indeed be better off with the knowledge that they wanted.....to decide for themselves what was good and what was bad....so how are we going so far under the influence of this god and his minions, fellow angels whom he was able to lure away obviously with similar deceptive thinking?

There was a time limit set and things were allowed to go as far as the devil wanted within reason. On a few occasions God stepped in with adjustments to the activities of this devil and his demons, but by and large he allowed them free reign to prove their case....so have we been better off deciding what is good and bad for ourselves? Would we have been happier if we had just listened to our wise Creator who knew better than we did what a knowledge of evil would introduce into the world? He tried to tell us....but it was more effective to "show" us.....all of us, just where an abuse of free will leads.

Within one generation of their decision to separate from God, a murderer was produced.....such is the power of sin.....and we have been on a downward spiral ever since. Atrocities were committed in the name of God and the pretender always portrayed him as the bad guy....he still does.

What was to take place when the time limit was reached? Records were kept regarding outcomes and results of the abuse of free will down through history, which would provide legal precedents for all time to come. There would never be a need in the future for any rebel to try this again.....There was also a record of those who actually wanted to do the right thing by God and obey his laws......but humans have now reached a state where global extinction of all living things has become a real possibility.....so has getting a divorce from God worked out well for anyone?
Has godless science taken us into a secure future....or are we worse off because of their inventions? Would be have technology and abilities to cause mass destruction if it were not for science? And on the political front, are we better off under man's rule? We are still fighting useless wars in this 21st century!

Do we understand what we lost when our first parents decided that they wanted their independence from God?
They lost their paradise home....they lost all the free food that he had provided for them....they lost God's favor and protection from any of the things that could harm them, like the natural disasters that are plaguing the planet right now in one place after another...mostly due to human mismanagement of the earth and its greedy use of its resources.

Their knowledge of evil soon became evil acts and humans have been harming each other ever since and whining about how unfair God is for demanding punishment for their willful disobedience.

The Creator is about to hold the world to an accounting and still people will shake their fist at Him and still want to live life their own way...and on their own terms. But life was never given unconditionally in the first place.....it was a gift, but continuing to live life to its fullest enjoyment came at a cost.....it was conditional with a small limitation on human freedom. Was it unfair of God to demand that? Or is it a requirement for the many to enjoy life here, that the few who may want to live immoral lives, or who want to rob the world of peace and security, are evicted?

It says in the scriptures that God never does anything without first warning people of his intentions and giving them a choice about their actions. He does this through his earthly servants....but if we take the example of Noah, whom Jesus used to illustrate a similar situation that was to happen again, (Matthew 24:37-39) we will see that God's servants were seldom taken seriously and people ignored the warnings and suffered the consequences. According to Matthew 24:14, God has been giving people this information for a long time, but true to their nature it has been ignored and ridiculed.

If the wannabe god knows he is going down, and that there is not a thing he can do to stop it, then he is going to try and take as many down with him as he can.....the question is...will we be one of them?

That is how I see it.

That's classic! Using what you don't believe(the bible)to try to support something that you say isn't possible

 

[Deeje]

That's classic! Using what you don't believe(the bible)to try to support something that you say isn't possible

What????

 

[InChrist]

You say that people "rejected being with God," what about people that just aren't convinced of God's existence?

What does it mean to "reject being with God?"

You say that people "rejected being with God," what about people that just aren't convinced of God's existence?

What does it mean to "reject being with God?"

Rejecting God can occur in various ways, but I would say basically it is when someone considers themself to be their own autonomous authority and chooses to do their own thing with disregard or in rebellion to God.

I think most people at one point or another are not convinced there is a God. Yet, the scriptures say that creation itself provides enough evidence that one is without excuse for denying God’s existence (Romans 1:20). Besides the Holy Spirit is at work in the world and each person’s life pointing out their sin and need of reconciliation with God. So before each person leaves this earth in death,I don’t think it’s a matter of not being convinced, but of deliberate rejection because God will provide numerous opportunities to choose truth over deception, good over evil, and God over self.

 

[firedragon]

I am very persistent sometimes. I do want to say that I know not everybody believes the stuff I was talking about in OP, I was directing OP at people that do believe those things though.

If Hell is not eternal that seems much more just. If people don't go to Hell for mere nonbelief, that also seems much more just. These ideas are much less problematic. But I was asking those who do believe in those things.

I know sis. I know.

Anyway I think most of us here won't be accepted in hell because there won't be any place for the dwellers of hell to run to.

 

[Meow Mix]

Logically compared to what?
For example if there is other life out there but it isn't carbon based or in anyway similar to what we know, would we know it? Could we understand it? Would we recognize it?

That wouldn't be illogical either. Logic is about internal consistency. So consider logical self-identity: A = A, or otherwise, something, if it exists, exists as what it is (itself). Then excluded middle: A or ¬A (that's not-A), or something that exists either is what it is, or it must be something else. Then non-contradiction: ¬(A and ¬A), or something can't both exist as what it is and what it is not at the same time and in the same respect.

An apple is an apple, and something is either an apple or not an apple, and something can't be both an apple and not an apple at the same time and in the same respect.

What you're talking about is just something unknown: some kind of life that we're not familiar with. But we don't have to know what it is to know that it must be logically coherent (it is whatever it is, it is not whatever it's not, and it's not both what it is and what it's not at the same time and in the same respect).

 

[We Never Know]

What????

I may have you confused but I didn't think you belived in the bible.

 

[Deeje]

If Hell is not eternal that seems much more just. If people don't go to Hell for mere nonbelief, that also seems much more just. These ideas are much less problematic. But I was asking those who do believe in those things.

There is no "hell of eternal torment" in the Bible. There is sheol....hades....gehenna....and the lake of fire. Understanding what these terms mean will answer all these questions about where the bad guys go.....

 

[Deeje]

I may have you confused but I didn't think you belived in the bible.

Read my description under my name....