If Hell is a place of eternal torment

[Truthseeker]

The reason hell or rather the lake of fire is a place of eternal torment is because it’s a place separated from God’s Eternal Presence, the Being who is the only Source of eternal life, love, light, goodness, beauty, joy, and peace.

Not eternal torment, not eternal separation either. It's possible for all to progress in the next world.

 

[We Never Know]

That wouldn't be illogical either. Logic is about internal consistency. So consider logical self-identity: A = A, or otherwise, something, if it exists, exists as what it is (itself). Then excluded middle: A or ¬A (that's not-A), or something that exists either is what it is, or it must be something else. Then non-contradiction: ¬(A and ¬A), or something can't both exist as what it is and what it is not at the same time and in the same respect.

An apple is an apple, and something is either an apple or not an apple, and something can't be both an apple and not an apple at the same time and in the same respect.

What you're talking about is just something unknown: some kind of life that we're not familiar with. But we don't have to know what it is to know that it must be logically coherent (it is whatever it is, it is not whatever it's not, and it's not both what it is and what it's not at the same time and in the same respect).

If other life some were made up of sulfur and nitrogen. Is that logical to our understanding?

 

[We Never Know]

Read my description under my name....

My bad and my appoligies.

 

[We Never Know]

There is no "hell of eternal torment" in the Bible. There is sheol....hades....gehenna....and the lake of fire. Understanding what these terms mean will answer all these questions about where the bad guys go.....

Where do sheol....hades....gehenna....and the lake of fire exist?
I mean I hear people say going down to hell, so were is down?
Or up to heaven. Where is up?

 

[Truthseeker]

What does it mean to "reject being with God?"

It's not black and white as I think most Christians suppose. If you have the qualities of God at least partially within you, you don't reject "being with God". You yourself then have God within you, at least partially.

 

[Truthseeker]

4. Some believe that one would go to hell for just not believing what you believe. So what you are basically saying is some say "my way or the highway". Thats wrong. The belief is wrong.

Right.

 

[We Never Know]

Discussing specifics is how we point out whether a concept is logically coherent or not. The reason I asked is because you can't have an immovable object and an irresistible force at the same time and in the same respect.

If one being wants an object to stay still and the other being wants the object to move, what happens? No scenario leads to them both being omnipotent.

How can anyone discuss specifics of what isn't known

 

[Deeje]

My bad and my appoligies.

Forgiven...

Where do sheol....hades....gehenna....and the lake of fire exist?
I mean I hear people say going down to hell, so were is down?
Or up to heaven. Where is up?

These are the most misunderstood terms in scripture.....
Sheol and hades are equivalents in Hebrew and Greek.....they mean the same place....the grave. Hell is "down there" like 6 feet under.

Gehenna and the lake of fire are the same.....gehenna was originally the Valley of Hinnom, just outside the walls of Jerusalem, previously used by apostate Israelites to sacrifice their children to the god Molech. That practice was stopped and the valley turned into a garbage dump. Fires were kept burning day and night to consume the refuse.
The bodies of dead animals and executed criminals not considered worthy of a decent burial were thrown in gehenna for disposal. What the flames missed, the maggots finished off.....nothing alive was ever pitched into gehenna. To Jews it came to represent a state of eternal death, of not being remembered by God in the resurrection. If you have ever seen a Jewish cemetery, you will understand why their graves and tombs are so elaborate....to attract God's attention to their burial place and to bring them back to life. Gehenna represents no grave and no memorial of the fact that these ones ever lived....it was a fitting description of eternal death, not eternal suffering. It helps to understand that the ancient Jews had no belief in life after death....no immortal soul...that belief was adopted later from Greek influence.

Heaven is a place from where Jesus and his fellow "kings and priests" will rule over redeemed mankind on earth. (Revelation 21:2-4) All will return to God's original purpose for this earth, which originally required no human to go to heaven.

 

[We Never Know]

Forgiven...


These are the most misunderstood terms in scripture.....
Sheol and hades are equivalents in Hebrew and Greek.....they mean the same place....the grave. Hell is "down there" like 6 feet under.

Gehenna and the lake of fire are the same.....gehenna was originally the Valley of Hinnom, just outside the walls of Jerusalem, previously used by apostate Israelites to sacrifice their children to the god Molech. That practice was topped and the valley turned int a garbage dump. Fires were kept burning day and night to consume the refuse.
The bodies of dead animals and executed criminals not considered worthy of a decent burial were thrown in gehenna for disposal. What the flames missed, the maggots finished off.....nothing alive was ever pitched into gehenna. To Jews it came to represent a state of eternal death, of not being remembered by God in the resurrection. If you have ever seen a Jewish cemetery, you will understand why their graves and tombs are so elaborate....to attract God's attention to their burial place and to bring them back to life. Gehenna represents no grave and no memorial of the fact that these ones ever lived....it was a fitting description of eternal death, not eternal suffering. It helps to understand that the ancient Jews had no belief in life after death....no immortal soul...that belief was adopted later from Greek influence.

Heaven is a place from where Jesus and his fellow "kings and priests" will rule over redeemed mankind on earth. (Revelation 21:2-4) All will return to God's original purpose for this earth, which originally required no human to go to heaven.

What if a person is neither burned or buried?

 

[Deeje]

What if a person is neither burned or buried?

God will resurrect a person no matter where their body ended up.....hades is said to give up its dead, so if that was at sea or on land, (Revelation 20:13-14) God does not require a single molecule of our former body to re-create us and reinstall our memories.

Death and its receptacle the grave (hades) are then hurled into the figurative "lake of fire" meaning that they will never exist again.....whatever goes into the lake of fire never comes out.

 

[We Never Know]

God will resurrect a person no matter where their body ended up.....hades is said to give up its dead, so if that was at sea or on land, (Revelation 20:13-14) God does not require a single molecule of our former body to re-create us and reinstall our memories.

Death and its receptacle the grave (hades) are then hurled into the figurative "lake of fire" meaning that they will never exist again.....whatever goes into the lake of fire never come out.

If jesus died for all mans sins, past, present and future.... How can anyone suffer from their sins?

 

[Meow Mix]

If other life some were made up of sulfur and nitrogen. Is that logical to our understanding?

Yes, nothing about that is incoherent. The question that matters with logic is "is this internally consistent?" and not "is this out of the ordinary or outside of my experience?"

 

[We Never Know]

Yes, nothing about that is incoherent. The question that matters with logic is "is this internally consistent?" and not "is this out of the ordinary or outside of my experience?"

And if there was life made up of sulfur and nitrogen....is it internally consistent?

IMO we wouldn't know.

 

[Gargovic Malkav]

I see. The OP wasn't saying God wouldn't exist if God is a monster, just asking how people would reconcile the existence of Hell with not believing God is a monster for allowing such a place.

How does "refusing to accept the reality of a situation" lead to literal eternal torment? What do you imagine Hell to be in your worldview? Not a literal lake of fire or anything like that?

When thinking about Hell I don't really think much of a literal depiction.
Maybe it is like that, maybe not.
But to me the definition of the word is a place of continuous discomfort, this is what matters to me.
What I imagine it to be like is what I feel when I've been doing something bad for a very long time and have gotten so used to getting away with it that I get carried away by my confidence and no longer feel guilty about it, until suddenly someone makes it known to me that they've known all along and confronts me with it.
It's one of the most terrible emotional states I can experience.
Imagine that what you've done is so bad, that you've gravely disappointed your parents and/or anyone dear to you, causing a strong feeling of depression and self-loathing, or, if you're still in denial, extreme rage and/or blaming someone or something else for your failure(the latter can also be used as an example of what I mean with "refusing to accept the reality of a situation" and how it can lead to eternal torment).
Feeling like this in a continuous state is what I imagine hell to be like.

 

[Deeje]

If jesus died for all mans sins, past, present and future.... How can anyone suffer from their sins?

Exactly right, Jesus did die for the sins of all mankind, but it was conditional.....if one did not exercise faith in that sacrifice by living a clean and moral life in imitation of the Master, then forgiveness was withheld.
Repentance must be demonstrated for all past sins to be forgiven......and their resurrection comes with a clean slate. The death penalty was the highest form of punishment under God's Law. There were no prisons or torture in Israel's laws. At death, one has paid for past sins so there is no need to punish anyone further. No need for hell.
Gehenna just meant that you never wake up.

Even the unrighteous will be called from their graves, redeemed by Jesus and given opportunity to get things right with God....a period of judgment but still with an exercise of free will. (John 5:28-29)

Eternal life was contrasted with eternal death.....that is God's justice....simple and fair. He has no need to punish dead people.....not waking up is punishment enough.

 

[danieldemol]

1. From a anthropomorphic perspective which is limited in understanding the universe and the future, I think that its good to exist if it does.

I'm not clear on what you are saying here, are you saying that because something exists it must be good?

 

[ajay0]

If Hell is a place of eternal torment, do you think it is good that God allows a place like this to exist?

How do you reconcile finite crimes with infinite punishments?

What is your theory of justice: for instance, Hell seems purely retributive: since someone is ostensibly there forever, there could be no rehabilitative purposes for it.

What about belief? Some worldviews believe that people will go to Hell for mere nonbelief in a savior or religion in general. How do you reconcile that without thinking your god is terrible?

Basically, for those that believe in Hell as a place of eternal torment, can you help me understand why you believe this is real, and why it doesn't cause you to think your god is a monster?

There are teachings of heaven and hell, corresponding to positive and negative astral dimensions in the dharmic religions.

You attain heaven or hell in accordance with your postiive or negative karmas.

But they are not considered to be permanent or eternal state for the soul to reside. This is because karma is not infinite, but finite.

Also the Self/Atman or Buddha nature is considered to be there in each and every sentient being. Even the vilest being has the Buddha nature within himself, though it may be thickly veiled due to karmic impressions of a negative nature. Thus the core of a person is always pure and divine.

Great sinners will have to reside in hell a lot longer but still they have the option of coming to the right karmic path in successive incarnations.

The focus of the dharmic religions is ultimately not heaven, but Nirvana or Moksha, where one goes beyond both negative and positive karma as well, considering both to be bondages.

 

[Meow Mix]

And if there was life made up of sulfur and nitrogen....is it internally consistent?

IMO we wouldn't know.

Yes, nothing about that contains a contradiction; we can know that.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Where do sheol....hades....gehenna....and the lake of fire exist?
I mean I hear people say going down to hell, so were is down?
Or up to heaven. Where is up?

It used to he believed that literally heaven is above us in the sky (Heavens and sky are actually the same word in German), and Hell deep below the Earth (many thought Dante actually traveled there).
But we've learned better and it's become more of an abstract cukture hangover.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Fortunately, it’s not. It’s simply mankind’s common Grave.

Why do I say this?

Because Jacob, a god-fearing man, said he was going there when he died. Genesis 37:35
Douay-Rheims Bible
And all of his children being gathered together to comfort their father in his sorrow, he would not receive comfort, but said: I will go down to my son into hell, mourning. And whilst he continued weeping

Job even prayed to go there! Job 14:13
Douay-Rheims Bible
Who will grant me this, that thou mayest protect me in hell, and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a. time when thou wilt remember me?

Unfortunately, the Bible’s waters of truth have been twisted… but it’s still possible to figure some things out, w/ serious study.