If Jesus returned to this world, how would you know it was Jesus?

[soulsurvivor]

But if it was clearly apparent by his love and forgiveness why would Jesus need to perform miracles?

Anyone can profess a message of love and forgiveness. Without the miracles you can not be sure of their divinity.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

But these false Christs will not demonstrate 'love and forgiveness;. They will very likely spread hate and division among people.

If they consistently (without fail) spread a message of love and forgiveness as well as perform miracles - then they are as good as the Christ.

 

[Brian2]

That should tell you something, if the 13 epistles completely rule out other beliefs and the 4 gospels don't.

The 4 gospels rule out Baha'u'llah being the return of Jesus.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

So, do you believe this refers to the same man Jesus who walked the earth 2000 years ago?

Yes.

How can that be the case if the Bible is correct, or do you believe the Bible is incorrect?

I believe the Bible to contain some of the original teachings of the relevant Messengers and Prophets but much corruption also. Where the Bible contradicts the Qur'an or authentic Hadiths, I will always go on what the Qur'an and authentic Hadiths say over the Bible.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

I know this not reliable word by word, but neither is your hadith, unlike the Qur'an. How strong is this hadith, in your opinion?

I believe it to be an authentic Hadith and will always take the Qur'an and authentic Hadiths over the Bible when it comes to the crunch.

 

[firedragon]

Sorry, what I know of science does not allow me to believe in the fables of spiritual bodies.

What do you "know of science" that does not allow you?

 

[1213]

...
So how would you know if a man who claimed to be Jesus was really Jesus? ...

I think to know Jesus, one should know what Bible tells about him. And that is why I think it is really important that Christians read what Jesus says in the Bible.

 

[Truthseeker]

Where the Bible contradicts the Qur'an or authentic Hadiths, I will always go on what the Qur'an and authentic Hadiths say over the Bible.

Why are Hadiths more reliable over the Bible? I understand that Hadiths were transmitted over generations of people, just like the Gospels were transmitted by word of mouth.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Why are Hadiths more reliable over the Bible? I understand that Hadiths were transmitted over generations of people, just like the Gospels were transmitted by word of mouth.

Because I believe the Bible has been corrupted, not so the authenticated Hadiths (where the chain of narrators has been checked for its quality and soundness). Sahih al-Bukhari, whence the Hadith I cited comes, is widely considered to be the most trusted or one of the two most trusted collections of Hadiths (alongside Sahih Muslim) by Sunni Muslims (I identify as a Sunni Muslim, albeit one with Sufi sympathies).

 

[Trailblazer]

Some of them were never written by Paul. They are forgeries. A nice word is pseudepigrapha.

What about the verses about meeting Jesus in the air?

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18

Revised Standard Version

14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; 17 then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Read full chapter

 

[firedragon]

What about the verses about meeting Jesus in the air?

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18

Revised Standard Version

14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; 17 then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Read full chapter

Thats considered authentic Pauline.

 

[InChrist]

Luke 17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. 23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. 24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. 25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

That verse won’t work to say that Jesus will be the return of Christ because Jesus was rejected 2000 years ago; Jesus was not rejected by “this generation” to which Luke 17:24 refers.

Please note the sequence of events:

25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

So what that means is that the Son of man would suffer many things, and be rejected of the generation in which he was living contemporaneous with his appearance (this generation).

Baha’u’llah perfectly fulfilled these prophecies because he suffered many things and was rejected by the generation in which He was living (his generation).

“Bahá’u’lláh was rejected by his own countrymen, and was sent into exile. His life was filled with grief and sorrow.

The Emperor Franz Joseph passed within but a short distance of the prison in which Bahá’u’lláh was captive. Louis Napoleon cast behind his back the letter which Bahá’u’lláh sent to him, saying: “If this man is of God, then I am two Gods!” The people of the world have followed in their footsteps.

I read the following words of Bahá’u’lláh concerning his persecution and imprisonment: “Though weariness lay Me low, and hunger consume Me, and the bare rock be My bed, and My fellows the beasts of the field, I will not complain, but will endure patiently … and will render thanks unto God under all conditions … We pray that, out of His bounty—exalted be He—He may release, through this imprisonment, the necks of men from chains and fetters…” The Promised Day is Come, Shoghi Effendi, pp. 42–3.

Bahá’u’lláh was twice stoned, once scourged, thrice poisoned, scarred with hundred-pound chains which cut through his flesh and rested upon the bones of his shoulders. He lived a prisoner and an exile for nearly half a century.

Bahá’u’lláh was taken from the black-pit prison in Tihrán for judgement before the authorities. His death was expected hourly, but he was banished to ‘Iráq and finally to Israel. In the prison-city of ‘Akká, on another occasion, “… the Governor, at the head of his troops, with drawn swords, surrounded (Bahá’u’lláh’s) house. The entire populace, as well as the military authorities, were in a state of great agitation. The shouts and clamour of the people could be heard on all sides. Bahá’u’lláh was peremptorily summoned to the Governorate, interrogated, kept in custody the first night … The Governor, soon after, sent word that he was at liberty to return to his home, and apologized for what had occurred.” God Passes By, Shoghi Effendi, pp. 190–191.” ​

From: Thief in the Night, pp. 155-159​

Interestingly, what happened to Baha’u’llah also fulfilled all the prophecies in Isaiah 53. Some if the Isaiah 53 prophecies could apply to Jesus but some of them cannot possibly apply to Jesus and that is how we know that Jesus cannot be the end times Messiah prophesied in Isaiah. Jesus was a Messiah, but not the end times Messiah.

I hope you don’t think that anyone taught me what I know. The Baha’i Faith organization does not bother itself with such things as the return of Christ because they are much too busy building the kingdom of God on earth. What I have learned I learned through a careful study and analysis of the Bible. Comparing the Bible prophecies from both the Old and New Testaments with the history of the Baha’i Faith it became abundantly clear that all the prophecies for the return of Christ have been fulfilled. Of course I already knew who Baha’u’llah was because of all the other evidence so I just do this as a hobby and because I need to know what is in the Bible if I am conversing with Christians on forums.

If the Baha’i organization didn’t teach you anything, then what is all the stuff you constantly post and quote about Bahá’u’lláh?

 

[firedragon]

Why are Hadiths more reliable over the Bible? I understand that Hadiths were transmitted over generations of people, just like the Gospels were transmitted by word of mouth.

The normal argument for that is, the ahadith have a chain of transmission, and records and biographies of each and every narrator if it goes back to the prophet Muhammed or not. There is nothing like that for the Gospels.

For example. Can you tell me a chain of transmission for the Gospel of Mark as a whole that goes back to Jesus Christ? Names of narrators at least?

 

[Trailblazer]

All we have to know is how to know someone who claims to be the return of Christ and is not.
The one left over is the real Jesus.

You are right about that because Jesus said:

Matthew 24 KJV

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

List of people claimed to be Jesus - Wikipedia

We know that Jesus was not referring to Baha’u’llah because Baha’u’llah did not claim to be Jesus Christ.
Baha’u’llah claimed to be a different Person and Baha’u’llah came with a new name.

Isaiah 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name.

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

The new name indicates that the return of Christ would be another man because why would Jesus change his name if he wanted people to know he was Jesus? That would make no sense at all.

Also, it is important to note that Jesus never promised to return to earth, not once in the New Testament. In fact, Jesus said His work was finished here and He was no longer in the world (John 14:19, John 17:11, John 17:4, John 19:30)

 

[Trailblazer]

As all 66 books of the bible are from God ,im taken in by Genesis to Revelation. I don't need to cherry pick which books / letters are more authoritative than others. They are all equally authoritative. When I read the four Gosepls and all of the epistles in the NT ,all of the NT is equally from God .

All 66 books of the bible were written by men who claimed to be inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Not a single one of them was "from God" since not a single one of them was written by God.
They were not even written by a Manifestation of God such as Jesus, they were written by ordinary men.

 

[Trailblazer]

Sorry, what I know of science does not allow me to believe in the fables of spiritual bodies.

Nothing to be sorry about, then don't believe in them.

 

[Trailblazer]

Now you err heavily, Trailblazer. Saoshyant, Kalki and Maitreya have already lived and and died in 1892 in the form of your uneducated Iranian Preacher, Bahaollah. You people do not even know your own things.

They are not "my things." They are other people's beliefs.

 

[John1.12]

All 66 books of the bible were written by men who claimed to be inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Not a single one of them was "from God" since not a single one of them was written by God.
They were not even written by a Manifestation of God such as Jesus, they were written by ordinary men.

So you don't believe when Paul wrote
2 Timothy 3:16.
Kjv

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

But then your going to quote from another verse from the bible written by another ordinary man ,to argue the point ? And yes God didn't physically write anything ,that we know of . Why would that make a difference?

 

[Trailblazer]

Anyone can profess a message of love and forgiveness. Without the miracles you can not be sure of their divinity.

Unless everyone "witnessed" those miracles, how would they know about them? Would they just believe other people who told them about the miracles?

But these false Christs will not demonstrate 'love and forgiveness;. They will very likely spread hate and division among people.

You are correct, that is what a false prophet would do, but a true prophet would have good fruits, as Jesus said:

Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Fruits: the pleasant or successful result of work or actions: fruit

If they consistently (without fail) spread a message of love and forgiveness as well as perform miracles - then they are as good as the Christ.

So I take it you are not waiting for the same man Jesus in His resurrected body to return to this world?
Baha'u'llah consistently spread a message of love and unity, not hatred or division. For example:

“The Great Being saith: O ye children of men! The fundamental purpose animating the Faith of God and His Religion is to safeguard the interests and promote the unity of the human race, and to foster the spirit of love and fellowship amongst men. Suffer it not to become a source of dissension and discord, of hate and enmity. This is the straight Path, the fixed and immovable foundation. Whatsoever is raised on this foundation, the changes and chances of the world can never impair its strength, nor will the revolution of countless centuries undermine its structure.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 215

Baha'u'llah also performed miracles.

"Bahá’u’lláh forbade His followers to attribute miracles to Him because this would have amounted to the degradation of His exalted station. Nevertheless, there are many accounts left to posterity by His disciples, describing the circumstances in which He either healed incurables or raised the dead.

None of these supernatural acts were considered by His followers to be a proof of the truth of His Cause, since they are only convincing to a limited number of people and they are not decisive proofs even for those who see them."

Read more: Famous Miracles in the Baha’i Faith

 

[Trailblazer]

The 4 gospels rule out Baha'u'llah being the return of Jesus.

Anyone can say that but talk is cheap. Prove it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes.

So do you believe that when Jesus died, Jesus ascended to heaven in the same body he had while on earth, and that Jesus will return in that same body? Do you believe that heaven is a physical place where physical bodies reside?

I believe the Bible to contain some of the original teachings of the relevant Messengers and Prophets but much corruption also. Where the Bible contradicts the Qur'an or authentic Hadiths, I will always go on what the Qur'an and authentic Hadiths say over the Bible.

I agree with you on that, and that is the official Baha'i position:

From Letters Written on Behalf of the Guardian:

...The Bible is not wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur'an, and should be wholly subordinated to the authentic writings of Bahá'u'lláh
. (28 July 1936 to a National Spiritual Assembly)

We cannot be sure of the authenticity of any of the phrases in the Old or the New Testament. What we can be sure of is when such references or words are cited or quoted in either the Quran or the Bahá'í writings.
(4 July 1947 to an individual believer)

The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments