If masculinity can be "toxic"...

[Revoltingest]

No. That's not what toxic masculinity is.

Yes, it is.
I wasn't being specific about the behaviors, but both fall within the description I gave.

You're criticizing an academic concept without grasping it's actual meaning.

When I see the term used, it's by non-academics.

Reposting the definition I posted earlier in this thread:
From wiki page on Hegemonic Masculinity:

Connell argues that a salient feature of hegemonic masculinity is the use of "toxic" practices such as physical violence, which may serve to reinforce men's dominance over women in Western societies.[3] Other scholars have used the term toxic masculinity to refer to stereotypically masculine gender roles that restrict the kinds of emotions allowable for boys and men to express, including social expectations that men seek to be dominant (the "alpha male") and limit their emotional range primarily to expressions of anger.[67]

In other words, Toxic masculinity does not just refer to toxic behaviors that are associated with men, but toxic behaviors which derive from our societal gender roles and our conception of masculinity itself.

None of the behaviors you listed seem derived the ways we socialize women specifically.

False complaints to cops are opportunistic people being ****ty. What about how our society socializes women leads to this consequence?

Popular usage is broader than the above definition.
Making it about "hegemony" is quite restrictive.
I'm not an academic, & I don't pretend that usage.

I don't know how anyone could argue property theft perpetrated by women was derived from toxic ways we socialize women on a gendered basis.

It's an observable pattern of behavior linked to gender, particularly during divorce.
You may disagree, but I see a sense of entitlement which means cleaned out
bank accounts, stolen tools, etc.

 

[columbus]

Popular usage is broader than the above definition.
Making it about "hegemony" is quite restrictive.

That restrictive definition reminds me of the people who redefine racism to be something black people don't do, so therefore no black people are racist.
Tom

 

[columbus]

How about this kind of toxic femininity?
When women like Andrea Constand offer to trade sex for career boosts from guys like Cosby and Weinstein. And when they don't feel that they get their kitties worth accuse them of sexual assault.
Tom

 

[Loviatar]

...eh, while I agree with your point that toxic femininity exists because there are harmful traits linked to estrogen and feminine social roles, the case against both Cosby and Weinstein seems solid. One confessed to drugging girls in a deposition (his lawyer told him not to answer the follow-up on whether they knew they were being drugged), and the depravity of the other one was an open secret in Hollywood.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

False complaints to cops are opportunistic people being ****ty.

"People being crappy" that results in ruined lives and reputations, and something that should be legally punishable. But it's not, because women.

 

[Loviatar]

How does estrogen affect these behaviors?

Unlike testosterone and aggression, mostly indirectly, by in tandem with female structural traits creating a weaker body. So, one more likely to use indirect tactics; one more likely to be manipulative. The dark side of higher empathy probably also plays a role; the average woman can "read" people better than the average man, which can be used to manipulate as much as it can be used to nurture or identify threats. SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class journal research https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19476221

Munchhausen's by proxy also is overwhelmingly a female disorder. That specifically seems like a perversion of maternal instinct and the feminine social role of motherhood.

 

[England my lionheart]

...then wouldn't femininity also have the potential to be "toxic" as well? I just recently heard the phrase "toxic masculinity", which I thought was rather odd.

So can both be "toxic", only masculinity, or is the notion that either could be "toxic" simply nonsense? Why or why not?

Only one implements the dog box, silence isn't always golden.

 

[Father Heathen]

So if a guy behaves like a jerk, it's due to his testosterone, at least partially. But if a gal behaves like a jerk, it has nothing to do with her estrogen, ever? Is that what's being suggested or am I misunderstanding the gist?

 

[Loviatar]

So if a guy behaves like a jerk, it's due to his testosterone, at least partially. But if a gal behaves like a jerk, it has nothing to do with her estrogen, ever? Is that what's being suggested or am I misunderstanding the gist?

Is that a response to me, or to Sartre? I didn't see him make a claim that bad behavior is hormone-related on either end. I was saying that there's scientific evidence to support the idea that it is on both, albeit more indirectly on the female end.

i.e. Too much testosterone directly fosters aggression which needs to be checked, testosterone is one of many direct causal mechanisms on those feelings in the brain. Too much estrogen fosters a weaker body and more pair-bonding ability (i.e. empathy), both of which foster manipulativeness which needs to be checked. There's no evidence that I know of showing estrogen acts as a direct causal mechanism of manipulative behavior in the brain, but it does cause things that cause that behavior.

These both also foster good things, of course. Empathy and maternal instinct are positives. Courage and determination are positives.

 

[Loviatar]

That sounds fair to me, but forwarding that as proof that estrogen may lead manipulative behavior is a super misleading conclusion to draw from that.

It's indirect, yeah. Estrogen just fosters a weaker body, less muscle mass and more fat specifically. Heightened functional empathy also plays a major role in ability to manipulate though (not necessarily or even likely urge to), and that has a direct relationship to estrogen.

I don't know anything about Munchhausen but I imagine for the vast majority of the female population this is insignificant.

Absolutely. But the vast majority of males aren't serial killers, either, and those are overwhelmingly male. It seems likely to me that each is related to both the prescribed roles of each in society (conqueror and mother respectively), and what we can observe of brain chemistry's impacts on behavior.

 

[Father Heathen]

I don't know if you're responding to me, but I don't believe I insinuated anywhere in this thread that the poor behavior of a man can be attributed to testosterone.

I'm responding to the thread in general.

 

[Revoltingest]

I am not diminishing the affects of lying people who act opportunistically. I am merely pointing out that there is no good reason to think these behaviors derive from how we socialize women on a gendered basis.

It needn't be due solely to socialization.
After all, with testosterone blamed so often, who
is to say estrogen has only positive effects?

 

[Revoltingest]

I've litterally seen noone but the person who is also making insinuations about estrogen in this thread bring hormones into it at all.

I've seen it elsewhere.

Do you also think estrogen may make people deceitful?

I don't.
But the relationships between the many hormones (estrogen
being only one) & environment are far above my pay grade.
So I limit commentary to observations of emergent phenomena.

This thread is filled with essentialist nonsense.

Welcome to RF.

 

[Estro Felino]

It needn't be due solely to socialization.
After all, with testosterone blamed so often, who
is to say estrogen has only positive effects?

It's more a double standards situation. Trump is accused of being a pig because of that "locker room talk"

whereas I wonder how the Americans would react if a female celebrity said on live tv "Well...I cannot live without c* "

as it happened in Italy

Spoiler

*the thing males have

 

[Loviatar]

It's more a double standards situation. Trump is accused of being a pig because of that "locker room talk"

whereas I wonder how the Americans would react if a female celebrity said on live tv "Well...I cannot live without c* "

Those two situations aren't comparable at all, honestly. Trump was bragging about grabbing random women by the genitals at parties. Clerici seems to just be saying she has a high sex drive. A little bit of a crude thing for a public figure to say, but there's nothing at all rapey about her comment, which was the main issue with Trump's.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I am not diminishing the affects of lying people who act opportunistically.

Sure you are. You're passively dismissing it as "oh, some people just being crappy." A rude customer is just being crappy. Someone with a bad attitude ranting about Obama is just being crappy. These women are lying and accusing those who turn out to be completely innocent of a violent, invasive, damaging action, and even when they're found to be completely innocent their lives are already in absolute shambles from which very few ever recover.

I am merely pointing out that there is no good reason to think these behaviors derive from how we socialize women on a gendered basis.

Only there is, because as a society we've somehow arrived at the gender-based assumption that women are always the victim, and their word is golden as evidence. Society will White Knight leap to the aid of any woman who cries rape or sexual harassment, damn those who disbelieve their claim, and on the same hand mock and dismiss the men who report the same crime to their person. In a nutshell: toxic femininity.

If it can be solidly proven that an allegation is false then I agree it should be legally punishable.

Well thank goodness for that!

Oh no, "women" at it again.

If you don't want people to think you're sexist, a good start would not be blaming "women" for issues with the yankee legal system.

Yep, about the same as women screaming about "the patriarchy" and wearing shirts like this one. If women don't want people to think they're sexist, a good start would be not blaming men for issues with every-damn-thing they either can't control or can think of.

 

[Estro Felino]

Those two situations aren't comparable at all, honestly. Trump was bragging about grabbing random women by the genitals at parties. .

Well...no. I re-listened to the incriminated talk...and Trump says : "when you're a star, they let u do anything to them".
So...no rape or coercion of any kind involved.

Besides, people still spread the lie that in the 80s he was a serial rapist. Have u seen a picture of Trump in the 80s? It's more credible that it's women who used to rape him.

 

[Loviatar]

Well...no. I re-listened to the incriminated talk...and Trump says : "when you're a star, they let u do anything to them".
So...no rape or coercion of any kind involved.

He said he grabbed their crotches out of the blue, and they just let him do it. That's claiming they didn't act to stop him, while the rapey behavior is going on.

I don't know how things are in Italy, but in America normal people don't give random girls crotch-grabs at parties, and it's taken as assault whether the girl chooses to comment on it or not. Except in the very specific circumstances of "you and your partner are very, very publicly open about your sexuality," "it's an orgy," or "the girls are paid prostitutes."

 

[Shad]

I would recommend this article:
3 Ways Toxic Masculinity Harmed Me as a Male Survivor of Abuse

Toxic masculinity hurts men, not just women.

He is blaming something else for his own inability to realize he is dating a ***** and inability to end the relationship *yawn*

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I am dismissing it from being recognized as toxic femininity because nobody has provided a satisfactory reason to why this behavior is a result of the socialization of women as a group.

And such reasons and studies have been "satisfactorily" provided for "toxic masculinity"? It seems along the same bulls*** vein as "mansplaining"; a quick argument-winner for ultra-feminists to shut down any and all male part to discussion and being. If there can be some vague nebulous of things like "machismo" being labelled as "toxic masculinity", then it absolutely follows that equally vague things like social veracity or perpetual victimism can be "toxic femininity".

A woman's toxic behavior's severity is not relevant to whether or not it qualifies as toxic femininity.

But a man's toxic behavior is so clearly toxic masculinity. Right, because that makes total sense.

Seeing as there is literally Cosby apologia in this thread, I think you're completely wrong on this.

Think as you may, but I'm not. The amount of men who are so very nearly convicted of rape even when their innocent, and their subsequent social hell even after being exonerated, shows quite plainly that society by large believe women's testimony before evidence is presented. To not do so is... well, it's just monstrous. How dare we question the rape, how dare we victim-blame... On the other hand, were a man to say that he was raped the situation is ridicule; such nonsense as "it's not rape if you want it, and he had an erection!" Hell, rape is even joked about when it comes to men. So sorry, but the "cosby apologia" in this thread doesn't excuse that women quite literally get away with false accusations of rape.

Gods, next you'll be throwing out such excuses as "not all women"...

That's just entirely inaccurate.

That the #metoo campaign even exists (and that a lot of men, yours truly included) were ridiculed over taking part in it, is evidence that it's not. Not entirely at least.

The antifeminist obsession with coming up with a feminine counterpart to toxic masculinity is really astounding to me.

"Coming up with..." Sounds like toxic femininity to me (specifically the bit about being perpetually victims and shifting blame and ire onto men). How dare women recognize their own faults, flaws, and - dare I say it - states of social privilege (as with all things, within certain spheres) compared to their male counterparts. How dare they shoulder partial blame for how utterly f***ed our society is right now. Clearly it's just some male "obsession".

People who mock men who come forward as survivors of sexual assault do so because they have a toxic view of masculinity, it has nothing to do with femininity.

Ah yes, of course, it's always to do with masculinity. Feminism's obsession with masculinity is what truly astounds me. If it is a woman perpetuating ridicule relative to their damn near "sacred state" of victimhood, then you bet you *** that's toxic femininity. Trying to apply any sort of masculine veneer on it is just deflecting the issue to male responsibility, as though somehow it's our issue to deal with.

So... you are equating your behavior with behavior that you think is sexist?

You're equating my "behavior". Arguments are not behavior, sarte, much as you might want them to be. You don't know me well enough at all to speak for my behavior in any scope. But great attempt at deflecting the issue of women having this entire culture of "men are all our problems" as exemplified by the linked product.

This has got to be the most tone deaf paragraph I have seen on RF in years.

Sounds like a nasty case of toxic femininity to me. I'm sure it fits with one of the indicators, but I'd just as soon label it as "can't take what's dished out".