If Obamacare is so great why......

[I.S.L.A.M617]

You said "Nobody deserves anything. It's a matter of what you're willing to take". That's might makes right anarchy. With that situation, force is how you take what you want.

As for your last sentence, that claim by you is what got you to the point of saying the quote I just quoted above. Working hard is not the difference maker you'd like it to be. Plenty of people work hard (harder than you or me) and don't make a livable wage. Your response to that is they don't deserve anything and they have to be willing to take stuff. Essentially your argument against my response to your idea about working hard is to go back to might makes right anarchy, so responding to me pointing that out by circling back to your argument that led to that only gets us right back here.

I think you're taking the word "take" out of context. You can "take" a promotion at a job without killing the guy ahead of you...

 

[tumbleweed41]

Jobs that require you to train or constantly supervise someone. Mostly entry level jobs were the person basically comes to you with nothing, no experience, no training, no work history, little education.

Look at tradesmen, they make a decent living. They also have experience, training, and a bunch of money invested in tools they bring to work with them.

Other examples are people who can only work certain hours, they are worth less.

All that said, after a person has worked for you a few years and proved themselves to be honest, dependable and display a good work ethic they should be paid more than the person who starts their very first job.

Starting at the bottom is not a death sentance.

I agree. However, as I pointed out before, there are many jobs that do not pay a living wage that do not fall into the above categories.
Are daycare worker charged with the care of your child as "low value"?
How about a nursing aid? Security guard? Pharmacy assistant? Ambulance driver? Agricultural workers?
My wife is a daycare worker with twenty years of experience, does she deserve a living wage, or is her job of low value?

 

[freethinker44]

Starting at the bottom is not a death sentance.

But keeping people at the bottom is. The problem us 'lazy' young people have isn't with the jobs that start you out low and then pay a living wage after you have proven yourself, the problem is with those businesses that never pay a living wage. And I think the vast majority of the new jobs added in the past year or so have been those types of jobs, part-time minimum wage jobs with little chance of advancement.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

the problem is with those businesses that never pay a living wage. And I think the vast majority of the new jobs added in the past year or so have been those types of jobs, part-time minimum wage jobs with little chance of advancement.

As if people are being forced to remain in those businesses and keep just the one job... If you really want to make more money, there's nothing stopping you from doing so. If 25 hours aren't enough to live off of, pick up another job and do 50. The idea that any chooch with a job is entitled to a house is just ridiculous.

 

[tumbleweed41]

As if people are being forced to remain in those businesses and keep just the one job... If you really want to make more money, there's nothing stopping you from doing so. If 25 hours aren't enough to live off of, pick up another job and do 50. The idea that any chooch with a job is entitled to a house is just ridiculous.

Has anyone here advocated that anyone with a job is entitled to a house?

 

[freethinker44]

As if people are being forced to remain in those businesses and keep just the one job... If you really want to make more money, there's nothing stopping you from doing so. If 25 hours aren't enough to live off of, pick up another job and do 50. The idea that any chooch with a job is entitled to a house is just ridiculous.

A lot of people trying to survive off of minimum wage do work two jobs, it's still not enough. The idea that it is acceptable for someone who works for a living and can barely afford rent and food and has to go without healthcare is just ridiculous.

 

[Revoltingest]

Starting at the bottom is not a death sentance.

Starting at the bottom is fantastic! It's a good way to improve skills & get wide experience.
Before I became an engineer, I was:
- Apple picker.
- Golf ball shagger. ("Shag" does not mean what Brits would think. Get yer minds out'a the gutter!)
- Machinist.
- Furniture mover.
- Coin dealer.
- Grounds keeper.
- Mechanic....more of an assistant to the real mechanics. (The shop specialized in Rolls Royce Phantom IIIs.)
- Building supervisor in a gym. (Glorified security guard)
- Grunt in a lumber yard. (Emptied lumber from RR box cars) I loved this one....I'd carry more lumber than anyone else!
- Sexton in a Methodist church.

It was worth having done those things.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

A lot of people trying to survive off of minimum wage do work two jobs, it's still not enough. The idea that it is acceptable for someone who works for a living and can barely afford rent and food and has to go without healthcare is just ridiculous.

If it's not acceptable to them they should get a better job.

 

[freethinker44]

If it's not acceptable to them they should get a better job.

Everyone can't just get a better job. That is the point being made. Some people have to work jobs like this. Our society requires it. Everyone can't be a CEO or middle management, we need people, a lot of people, to perform these low value jobs that anyone can do with minimal or no training. If we need people to perform these jobs it is unethical to not pay them a fair wage and provide for their health.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Everyone can't just get a better job. That is the point being made. Some people have to work jobs like this. Our society requires it. Everyone can't be a CEO or middle management, we need people, a lot of people, to perform these low value jobs that anyone can do with minimal or no training. If we need people to perform these jobs it is unethical to not pay them a fair wage and provide for their health.

Nobody said anything about middle management or CEOs... They can still be ditch diggers/construction workers, but work for a better company... You do know not every business offers the exact same pay and benefits, right?

 

[tytlyf]

Starting at the bottom is fantastic! It's a good way to improve skills & get wide experience.
Before I became an engineer, I was:
- Apple picker.
- Golf ball shagger. ("Shag" does not mean what Brits would think. Get yer minds out'a the gutter!)
- Machinist.
- Furniture mover.
- Coin dealer.
- Grounds keeper.
- Mechanic....more of an assistant to the real mechanics. (The shop specialized in Rolls Royce Phantom IIIs.)
- Building supervisor in a gym. (Glorified security guard)
- Grunt in a lumber yard. (Emptied lumber from RR box cars) I loved this one....I'd carry more lumber than anyone else!
- Sexton in a Methodist church.

It was worth having done those things.

That's it? My list is about double that. And not necessarily from being fired. A lot of stressful stuff including Cold calling.

 

[freethinker44]

Nobody said anything about middle management or CEOs... They can still be ditch diggers/construction workers, but work for a better company... You do know not every business offers the exact same pay and benefits, right?

So are you implying that it is completely acceptable that nearly every grocery store/department store pays slave wages because Costco will pay 15 dollars per hour?

 

[Agnostic75]

I am not anti-union. I was in a union for 7 years of my life. My son is in a union and doing quite well. My father and father-in-law worked in a union for decades.

My company when I ran it paid above union wage rates, so I got some of the best workers out there. My workers did not feel the need to organise because I treated them well but expected on and beyond productivity which allowed me to pay them the way I did.

My unproductive employees where called into the office. I told them one of two things where going to happen, they could expect to receive a raise of be fired, it was all up to them.

Who decides what a fair wage is for anyone?

 

[Reverend Rick]

Who decides what a fair wage is for anyone?

The employees do when they accept the terms of their employment.

Do you want to pull weeds from my garden, it pays one cent an hour, any takers?

Does this make any sense? If no one takes a job for low pay, the wages will increase.

Employers many times want to pay as little as possible, the question is how cheap are you willing to work for?

 

[Revoltingest]

That's it? My list is about double that.

If you'd done a better job, then perhaps you wouldn't have had to move on to seek new opportunities so often.

I did leave out one pre-engineering job:
- Pizza maker

I'm so forgetful!

 

[Reverend Rick]

My first job was selling cleaning products door to door. It paid minimum wage which was 1.65 an hour. Then I got a job in fast food, one year later I was assistant manager.

Then I got a union job making twice minimum wage. Then I killed folks for the government. They made me do this, I had no choice.

After that I started an apprenticeship in the electrical trade. I got laid off and worked as a bouncer, bartender, car salesman, projectionist, machinist and got called back to work and became an electrician. I went to college part time and 10 years later got an MBA.

Later on, I started a business and kept my full time job as well till I built my business up to the point it would support me.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I left out I worked overseas several times as a private contractor, Thats all I am going to say about that.

 

[Revoltingest]

I left out I worked overseas several times as a private contractor, Thats all I am going to say about that.

In the "pleasure trade"?
I have a new found admiration for you!

 

[freethinker44]

My first job was selling cleaning products door to door. It paid minimum wage which was 1.65 an hour.

I don't know how old you are, but if minimum wage was 1.65 I would guess this was around 1970. Adjusted for inflation, 1.65 was worth 9.93 in 1970 so you were doing much better than we are today.

Here's the inflation calculator to use.
Inflation Calculator: Bureau of Labor Statistics

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't know how old you are, but if minimum wage was 1.65 I would guess this was around 1970. Adjusted for inflation, 1.65 was worth 9.93 in 1970 so you were doing much better than we are today.

Here's the inflation calculator to use.
Inflation Calculator: Bureau of Labor Statistics

I vaguely recall working for $1.10/hr at one time.