freethinker44
Well-Known Member
Assuming your employer was following labor laws and paying you legally, the minimum was around 1.10 in the early 60s. In 1960 1.10 was worth 8.68 today.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
If Obamacare is so great why......
- Thread starter esmith
- Start date
Assuming your employer was following labor laws and paying you legally, the minimum was around 1.10 in the early 60s. In 1960 1.10 was worth 8.68 today.
Woo hoo! I was rich!
I.S.L.A.M617
Illuminatus
:yes: Exactly. As long as enough people accept terrible wages, there will be terrible wages. If nobody accepts a job for 8 dollars an hour, the business will be forced to pay more if they want to stay open.
freethinker44
Well-Known Member
But earlier your solution for people who didn't like their low wages was for them to get two low wage jobs, that is the exact opposite forcing businesses to pay more, that's enabling two businesses to pay immoral wages. Why the flip-flop?
I.S.L.A.M617
Illuminatus
Apparently the employees at nearly every grocery store/department store find it acceptable. If a business owner can get away with paying their employees next to nothing, I say more power to them, and shame on the employees.
I.S.L.A.M617
Illuminatus
No flip flop at all. I named an option; I never said it was the only one. Again, it goes back to what you're willing to take.
freethinker44
Well-Known Member
They could get away with sending children into coal mines and factories too. Is this the children's fault as well or was it right to pass laws against it?
I.S.L.A.M617
Illuminatus
Voluntary labor is voluntary labor...
freethinker44
Well-Known Member
So are you saying we should abolish laws against child labor?
I.S.L.A.M617
Illuminatus
As long as they're not FORCING the children to work and people apply for the job of their own accord, I honestly don't see what the problem is.
freethinker44
Well-Known Member
Well, there you have it then. Now that I know where you stand on the issue there really is no point in discussing it anymore, because if you truly believe that then I don't think you have the proper moral capacity to make any type of decision that will effect anyone besides yourself, so your arguments about whats right for business or workers doesn't hold any weight with me.
I.S.L.A.M617
Illuminatus
Well, there you have it then. Now that I know where you stand on the issue there really is no point in discussing it anymore, because if you truly believe that then I don't think you have the proper moral capacity to make any type of decision that will effect anyone besides yourself, so your arguments about whats right for business or workers doesn't hold any weight with me.
"Moral capacity"? Tell me; what exactly is morally wrong about somebody doing something they want to do? And while you're at it, what makes an action morally right or wrong besides your personal opinion about it?
Monk Of Reason
༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
People are forced to work at these conditions. I have zero power on my own to change anything. It would require a middle class workforce sized union to permanently get these problems fixed. However a lot of the same people that blame the employees for the wage problem are also the same ones against Unions. People don't seem to get that. Its either work these wages or die (quite litterally in many cases).
Too many people are deserpate. Too many people have kids at home that they HAVE to feed. Too many people have sick parents, siblings, loved ones. In the real world people have responsibilities and the poorer you are usually the more dependent you are on a paycheck to paycheck life. Missing a single paycheck can screw someone over and you think they will have the guts to trust every other person in their position (say 80% of America) to simply give up their pay at the same time? No. Because it will never work.
Voluntary labor is voluntary labor. But hunger is hunger and reality is reality. I don't have a choice when it comes to working. I HAVE to get a job and make money or I become homeless and starve. I don't have the option of not working. Neither do the overwhelming vast majority of Americans. This is where this notion that the poor are to blame falls apart.
Too many people are deserpate. Too many people have kids at home that they HAVE to feed. Too many people have sick parents, siblings, loved ones. In the real world people have responsibilities and the poorer you are usually the more dependent you are on a paycheck to paycheck life. Missing a single paycheck can screw someone over and you think they will have the guts to trust every other person in their position (say 80% of America) to simply give up their pay at the same time? No. Because it will never work.
Voluntary labor is voluntary labor. But hunger is hunger and reality is reality. I don't have a choice when it comes to working. I HAVE to get a job and make money or I become homeless and starve. I don't have the option of not working. Neither do the overwhelming vast majority of Americans. This is where this notion that the poor are to blame falls apart.
I.S.L.A.M617
Illuminatus
No they aren't. People choose their working conditions when they choose their job and choose to continue working there without demanding a change.
You have all the power you need to permanently change your personal situation. Don't worry about everybody else; if they really want something it's up to them to get it.
Monk Of Reason
༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
Alright. They aren't forced to work there but they find that better than being unemployed or starving. They can demand change all they want. Most of the time it just gets you fired unless your in a skilled position. Trust me I've seen it happen. Several times I've seen people pitch a fit and demand better pay, hours or w/e but they just got fired on the spot and the boss would turn around and say "anyone else? No? Get back to work."
But people do have the power to change things. Its done through unions and voting to change laws.
You get fired far more often than you get what you want. I've heard your sucess story several times and thats great for you but thats not the norm. The Squeaky wheel gets replaced by someone newer who costs less to pay.
This attitude is why unions fell apart. Just like freedom is not free, a union has no teeth if their membership is not willing to strike.
I'm going to give you young folks some advice. Don't borrow money and don't have kids till you sock away a bankroll first. When I was in the union we all started a savings plan to enable us to go without pay if we needed to strike. When we went to the bargaining table we negotiated from a position of strength.
You are right about one thing, as long as you live paycheck to paycheck you are no better than a slave.
Actually you are worse off. Back in the day a slave got housing, food, and clothing.
You had to give a slave enough to live or they would die. This was kinda a living wage.
If you work full time and cannot pay for food, clothing and shelter you are worse off than a slave.
Banks lend you money so you will live paycheck to paycheck and work for less than slaves made.
The people have the power but they will not stick together. Republicans understand this and vote in one block while Democrats are all over the place and getting them to stick together is akin to herding cats.
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
You're still advocating anarchy and unchecked capitalism which don't work in a civilized society.
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
1) Yes, they are forced to remain in those jobs. That's the whole point. They're forced to by the lack of other jobs out there.
2) You use 25 hours as an example, as if the only people in this situation are working part time. We're not talking about part-timers. We're talking about people working 40+ hours still not making a livable wage. So, it's pick up another job and work well over 50 hours. Your reasoning for thinking "just get a second job" is an acceptable solution to this problem is still baffling.
Good thing no one has put forth that idea then.
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
Right. So, because a person needs to feed their family and has no other options, and can't just say "no, that pay is too low, I'll wait for a better option", it's the employees' fault. Good call.
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
"Needing money to buy food, clothing and shelter" is not equal to "finding it acceptable". More support by you for anarchy and unchecked capitalism. Your view is what got us children and adults working 14-hour days in factories 6-7 days a week. I'm pretty sure they didn't find the conditions acceptable, which is why over time they changed things.
If you are looking for a product, say a TV, you have many, many options. If you choose a particular one for a particular price, one can reasonably say you found the price acceptable.
If you're looking for a job when unemployment is high and jobs are scarce, picking a particular one doesn't mean you found the pay acceptable. It just means you found the least bad one that would actually pay you so that you can continue to live.