If Obamacare is so great why......

[Reverend Rick]

Because this is a society. In society, there is a contract where people contribute to the general welfare of the whole society.

If we enforced the law, I would agree with you but we are not a society, we are a free for all mob where anyone can just walk into this country.

Every time a poor person enters our country, we dilute everyone's wealth.

Every time we allow cheap imports we sabotage a poor person's job prospects.

If our borders where secure, we could provide housing, education and yes, health care too if everyone where gainfully employed that was able to work.

Wages would rise if we had to produce everything we use here.

When there is no limit on who "society" is, the contract is void.

The more we give folks, the more people will come to eat at the table.

The mob will clear the table like locusts.

Only a fool would put food on the table in a situation like this.

 

[Magic Man]

This really is the difference between us. I believe medical care insurance is much too expensive to qualify as a basic need.

Then why are so many countries able to provide it through taxes?

We could give everyone shelter and it would be less expensive.

1) No, it wouldn't.

2) Healthcare and shelter are very different things. For healthcare, I just want someone competent to do whatever needs to be done. I'm not worried about style or individuality at all. With shelter, of course the most important thing is to have something that protects you from the elements, but you also want something a little more your style.

Of course no one should die because they cannot afford something. Medical care is a broad umbrella. Just because you have a minor rash does not mean you should be seen at no expense to you.

I don't think anyone's talking about "no expense to you". With a universal system, almost everyone would pay into it through taxes, and then there would generally be some kind of co-pay for most things. It's not like we're talking about having the top 1% pay for a program that is 100% free to use for everyone.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Here in North Carolina you can rent a three bedroom apartment for 1500$/month.

Here in Kentucky a 1,500 mortage would get you a 4 bedroom, 2 car garage sitting on a couple of acres.

A three bedroom apartment is half that here.

 

[Magic Man]

It is way too expensive where you live Matt, three people could live like a king in Kentucky on 50K.

I highly doubt that. After taxes, you're talking about roughly $38,000. That's about $3,100/month. An average 3-bedroom home looks to cost about $150,000. That's about $1,100/month, leaving you with $2,000 for cars, gas, car insurance, A/C/heating, groceries, phone/TV/internet, water and anything else. Just the things I listed could easily cost $1,700 even with getting the most basic stuff possible, and the only thing that's remotely a luxury is the phone/TV/internet, but a phone is practically a necessity, as is internet these days. So, now you're left with $300 for clothes, car repairs, house repairs, and anything else that comes up. Sure, it's enough to get by, as I said, but it's far from enough to "live like a king", and it's hardly enough to accrue any real savings.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Then why are so many countries able to provide it through taxes?

Because their borders are secure and no one can just waltz into their country.

They tax the hell out of imports so their citizens have well paying jobs and a good education. Most of them speak several languages and are productive citizens.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Back to that minor rash.

The US has higher infant mortality rates, and lower overall life expectancy than countries such as Canada. that have Universal Health Care.

IMO, the compassionate, humanitarian and socially responsible thing to do is to provide basic health care. The US is killing it's own people to pad the pockets of the American medical industry. And feeding off the fear of the "other" to do it.

 

[Magic Man]

If we enforced the law, I would agree with you but we are not a society, we are a free for all mob where anyone can just walk into this country.

OK, it makes it tough when you deny obvious facts like the U.S. being a society. If we were a "free-for-all mob", I could kill you with no repercussions. I could go steal my neighbor's car without consequence. I could drive wherever I want as fast as I want without fear of legal consequences. I could go on and on. You might think we're too lax in some law enforcement, but to say it's non-existent and we're therefore not a society is silly hyperbole.

Every time a poor person enters our country, we dilute everyone's wealth.

How?

Every time we allow cheap imports we sabotage a poor person's job prospects.

Agreed here, but how does this make us not a society?

If our borders where secure, we could provide housing, education and yes, health care too if everyone where gainfully employed that was able to work.

This seems to assume that illegal immigrants don't pay their fair share. They, in fact, as a whole pay as much in taxes as they take out. If you'd like links, let me know.

Wages would rise if we had to produce everything we use here.

True, and I'd love to make it so that more stuff is produced here.

When there is no limit on who "society" is, the contract is void.

The more we give folks, the more people will come to eat at the table.

The mob will clear the table like locusts.

Only a fool would put food on the table in a situation like this.

Only a fool would buy into this hyperbolic irrational rant.

The fact remains we live in a society with a social contract. Everyone does their part. I pay part of my income into the society, and so does everyone else who can afford to. Then we set up programs that are best done publicly. This includes police, firefighters, schools, and many more. One thing that could be added to that because it would be better for everyone other than the health insurance industry would be universal healthcare.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Wages would rise if we had to produce everything we use here.

Short term, yes; though it would stop a lot of international trade, and long term it would reduce the pressure to innovate new products. Internationally that would create chaos. Everything is already in play, and we cannot pull out.

We should not break treaty. We have promised most of our allies that we will continue to trade with them, and it would be bad to break treaty. We are banking that other large economies such as China and India will start consuming as well as manufacturing. The decision is already made, and now we are expecting our allies to (similar to S. Korea & Japan) to reach a level of widespread education and consumerism so that all of us together will begin to benefit from a more even level of trade and competition.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I highly doubt that. After taxes, you're talking about roughly $38,000. That's about $3,100/month. An average 3-bedroom home looks to cost about $150,000. That's about $1,100/month

No, our property taxes are cheaper here, a 150K morgage is beteen 700 and 800 a month.

 

[Magic Man]

Because their borders are secure and no one can just waltz into their country.

Many of them have a lot of immigration just like us. Sorry, but you can't blame this one on illegal immigrants, especially since they pay taxes as much as regular citizens.

They tax the hell out of imports so their citizens have well paying jobs and a good education.

Great, so let's start doing that. I'm very much on board.

Most of them speak several languages and are productive citizens.

First, speaking several languages isn't really relevant. Second, they have roughly the same percentage of productive citizens as we do.

 

[Magic Man]

No, our property taxes are cheaper here, a 150K morgage is beteen 700 and 800 a month.

Property taxes don't make much difference. Property tax here would be about $1,500 for a $150,000 house. Property taxes there would be about $1,100.

The number I gave wasn't just the mortgage payment. It also includes insurance and other factors. The base mortgage payment for $150,000 might be about $800, but you have to add in another $200-300 to get the total payment.

 

[freethinker44]

No, our property taxes are cheaper here, a 150K morgage is beteen 700 and 800 a month.

Per month or per year? That's pretty expensive per month. I thought New York was pretty high with about 3,000 per year for 150K mortgage.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Why do you feel entitled to other folks money just because they have more than you?

I'll remember that when the next big oil company wants a subsidy, or when the next congressmen wants a farm subsidy....etc..etc... You know..."my tax dollars going upward to fatten their pockets"...

Medical bills can never touch your retirement or take your home away.

If you don't have insurance they can

People can file bankruptcy and start fresh.

Did you not get the memo? Bankruptcy laws have changed.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

This really is the difference between us. I believe medical care insurance is much too expensive to qualify as a basic need.

Ludicrous. If you truly believe this then you'll have to explain to us how hallf a dozen or more other civilized nations are achieving this.

We could give everyone shelter and it would be less expensive.

No problem with that. Let's get it done.

Just because you have a minor rash does not mean you should be seen at no expense to you.

Sure you should. One man's rash is another man's Carcinoma or a host of other rash like skin diseases. Some rashes that present themselves as small and may appear to be minor or insignificant to the lay person can be or result in being something serious or life threatening. And how else would you even know it's a "minor" rash unless you seek medical expertise?......Come on now..!!!

 

[Dirty Penguin]

It is way too expensive where you live Matt, three people could live like a king in Kentucky on 50K.

Because Kentucky, like some other states in the union, get back more from the federal government than what they give to the federal government.....If they didn't then the states might be taxing its people a little higher...

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Because their borders are secure and no one can just waltz into their country.

Oh my......It's more difficult to simply walk into this country. Illegal immigration is in the negative last I checked. More people are being deported daily then ever before. The southern borders are more secure then have been in years.


Graph of the Day: Illegal immigration has slowed since 2007

Illegal immigration slows almost to a standstill - CSMonitor.com

Obama is deporting immigrants faster than Bush. Republicans don’t think that’s enough.

Obama Administration Deported Record 1.5 Million People : It's All Politics : NPR

Where have you been getting your information....?

 

[Mister_T]

They are diseases that if not treated in a timely manor, can lead to death.

Hopefully payday comes before it's to late.

Doesn't sound too far off from Alan Grayson's interpretation of the Republican healthcare plan.

[youtube]-usmvYOPfco[/youtube]
Alan Grayson on the GOP Health Care Plan: "Don't Get Sick! And if You Do Get Sick, Die Quickly!"' - YouTube

 

[Mister_T]

Credit is over rated. Liens do little if you stay in your home. People who get their wages garnished usually get another job. Yeah, I know these things, but the person got the needed health care for free.

Years later their credit gets mended, they buy another home. The big thing here is they did not die.

People get sick, people even die. Life has set backs, what don't kill you makes you stronger

Rick if you honestly believe and try to spin those things as not having a severely negative impact on your life and way of living, you are severely out of touch with reality. Credit is needed for almost everything you can't buy over the counter nowadays. Property liens (not exclusive to houses, they apply to all your property including cars) will most definitely put a wrench in things. Collection agencies are relentless and will sue you and seize anything you have of value if they can. I can't believe you are really that unaware to the point where you so casually brush these things off as if it were something as minor as losing your wallet.

And these are just the people that managed to get healthcare. There are those who get sick and die because they had no access/severely limited access to healthcare. But as long as wealthy people avoid taxation at any cost, what's a few poor "lazy" schmucks I guess?

 

[Brickjectivity]

Information about coverage: www.healthcare.gov

Medicare link: Affordable Care Act | Medicaid.gov

Information specific to the upcoming Healthcare Marketplace: https://www.healthcare.gov/how-can-i-get-ready-to-enroll-in-the-marketplace/

 

[tytlyf]

Information about coverage: www.healthcare.gov

Medicare link: Affordable Care Act | Medicaid.gov

Information specific to the upcoming Healthcare Marketplace: https://www.healthcare.gov/how-can-i-get-ready-to-enroll-in-the-marketplace/

I hope people on the right understand how this new marketplace for healthcare actually works. They won't get the factual information from their sources. Please read.

https://www.healthcare.gov/what-is-the-health-insurance-marketplace/#state=florida