If Obamacare is so great why......

[Shadow Wolf]

That is because you have been conditioned that you have to work for someone else.

Secondly, we are still in a recession. The longest one ever.

lastly, take construcion for example, in this industry, you start out working the hardest for the least amount of money. Later on as you aquire skills, you work less hard and make more money. People who make the most work the least.

I believe somewhere someone told you that life was fair. One day if you stick to it, you will get that big break and life will be better for you. Most likely, not during a recession.

Plenty of people have told me life is unfair, but not the other way around. My biggest obstacle right now is I need medical help but can't get any because I tried to do the right thing and work (which also cut me off from drawing over $1000/month unemployment, which had me living comfortably). If I didn't have a job I could the insurance I need so I could get treatment for my knee and then I would have many more work options available. But because I work, do not have any kids, and because my job offers insurance (albeit a very poor excuse of insurance) I am having a very hard time getting help and have nearly exhausted all the legal options.
Some years down the road though I am sure I will be well off, as I am going into a career of science and academia so my physical limitations will not be nearly as much of an issue. It's just being able to get there while hopefully avoiding needing knee replacement before I am 50 (one doctor said I'll be lucky to make it through my 30's) and support myself until then.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Not true. Did it ever occur to you that many don't want to own their own business? Many like to work and some of those jobs put them in a position to help others. They just want to be paid accordingly and enjoy healthcare, pay their expenses and be able to save and enjoy their savings. I say this society can help them achieve all these goals and more.

I am the type that would be much better off running my own business. I tend to get fed up with the bs of higher-ups, do things the way that is more efficient (rather than by procedure), and I am not afraid nor hesitant to argue with my superiors on principle.
Not everyone does want their own business, but some of us don't want to bend over for some unappreciative prick who really doesn't care.

 

[Revoltingest]

The Affordable Care Act actually refers to two separate pieces of legislation — the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (P.L. 111-148) and the Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act of 2010 (P.L. 111-152)
It requires everyone in the country to enroll in a healthcare plan, and in exchange it requires healthcare plans to cover pre-existing conditions.
This came about, because we are in a long stupid recession caused by too little oversight over business, particularly too little oversight over banking. Secondly it happened, because voters started to realize that the middle class was disappearing.

I hear this a lot, but what I see is that we had too much regulation...dysfunctional regulation of business. We had government actually requiring lenders to make risky home loans, subsidizing home loans, providing tax subsidy for home loans, providing tax subsidy for home ownership, and (after the crash which began in 2001) imposing tax penalties & other restrictions upon renegotiating troubled commercial loans (in lieu of foreclosure). This set the stage for price instability, & also exacerbated the effects of the crash. Lending, business & tax regulation steadily increased during the Reagan, Bush Clinton & Bush years.

Consider a troubled commercial property which is being refinanced, with a reduction of principal & capitalized interest due. The borrower not only has to qualify for the loan by committing all resources to covering the shortfall between the reduced old loan & the new loan, but must come up with income tax on the principal & interest reduction. If the borrower had this tax money, he likely wouldn't be in trouble in the first place. Yet the IRS has no policy of amortizing this tax over a reasonable term. Government could actually collect more tax if the IRS were willing to do this, but instead, they kill many deals, forcing owners into foreclosure & bankruptcy. They just don't understand or care.

Now, the same politically driven & economically inept outfit which gave us the longest recession in history is designing a new health care system. I'm not optimistic.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The Affordable Care Act actually refers to two separate pieces of legislation — the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (P.L. 111-148) and the Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act of 2010 (P.L. 111-152)

It requires everyone in the country to enroll in a healthcare plan, and in exchange it requires healthcare plans to cover pre-existing conditions.

This came about, because we are in a long stupid recession caused by too little oversight over business, particularly too little oversight over banking. Secondly it happened, because voters started to realize that the middle class was disappearing.

Our advantage is that our economy is no longer closed and the entire world economy is revving up quickly. This means new technologies, new demand and new lower cost of goods and services. New opportunities, new kinds of businesses and all the investment cash you could ever hope for is available.

Our disadvantage is that a lot of jobs have left the country. In the short term US workers are having to re-train and re-tool without any government assistance, even though the job shift was due to government policies implemented in the 70s and 80s. US workers are of a 'Get a job' mindset instead of a mindset where they see the myriad of opportunities available. The new lower-middle class is demoralized.

Actually, the entire global economy hasn't been revving up that quickly. Some places are pulling out and doing ok, and some places are still suffering and some countries are still on the verge on bankruptcy (Michigan recently did file). While in some areas there was a lack of oversight in business and banking, but in some areas there was too much. All-in-all the biggest and largest of the corporations, bankers, investors, and the politicians they bought out have done very well while everyone else has suffered. Really it is systematically installed oversight and undersight that lead to an economy that was so easily manipulated and so fragile that lead to the recession.
And since about the 1940's people have been discussing medical reform, so it has nothing to do with contemporary setbacks.
Be either super poor or super rich or else you'll be paying for them both is actually what I have been told in my life from a very young age. Which is certainly a far more accurate statement than hard work being the key to success.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I hear this a lot, but what I see is that we had too much regulation...dysfunctional regulation of business. We had government actually requiring lenders to make risky home loans,

Its true that policies encouraged banks to sell mortgages to bad credit risk people. Its also true that financial regulation is often ineffective, since the market evolves to compensate for whatever the government does. It is worse that our republic doesn't understand its monetary system which is full of very strange financial contracts, derivatives of derivatives of credits etc. 9 out of 10 have probably never heard of a derivative, much less the bizarre fashion in which the bad-mortgages were insured. We've got stock trades happening in fractions of a second buying and selling billions based upon the decisions of computer programs.

Consider a troubled commercial property which is being refinanced, with a reduction of principal & capitalized interest due. The borrower not only has to qualify for the loan by committing all resources to covering the shortfall between the reduced old loan & the new loan, but must come up with income tax on the principal & interest reduction. If the borrower had this tax money, he likely wouldn't be in trouble in the first place. Yet the IRS has no policy of amortizing this tax over a reasonable term. Government could actually collect more tax if the IRS were willing to do this, but instead, they kill many deals, forcing owners into foreclosure & bankruptcy. They just don't understand or care.

Yes, and I think that is related to the fact that voters have no clue (almost zero clue) how the financial sector works. Large scale fraud is guaranteed.

Actually, the entire global economy hasn't been revving up that quickly. Some places are pulling out and doing ok, and some places are still suffering and some countries are still on the verge on bankruptcy (Michigan recently did file). While in some areas there was a lack of oversight in business and banking, but in some areas there was too much. All-in-all the biggest and largest of the corporations, bankers, investors, and the politicians they bought out have done very well while everyone else has suffered. Really it is systematically installed oversight and undersight that lead to an economy that was so easily manipulated and so fragile that lead to the recession.

Financial instruments make the market better, but they have gotten too complex. I think we have let things get so complicated that 'Regulators' can't explain to the public what is going on.

And since about the 1940's people have been discussing medical reform, so it has nothing to do with contemporary setbacks.

Yes, you're right. The current recession was only a factor. The Republicans were definitely out of sync with reality this election.

 

[Revoltingest]

Its true that policies encouraged banks to sell mortgages to bad credit risk people. Its also true that financial regulation is often ineffective, since the market evolves to compensate for whatever the government does. It is worse that our republic doesn't understand its monetary system which is full of very strange financial contracts, derivatives of derivatives of credits etc. 9 out of 10 have probably never heard of a derivative, much less the bizarre fashion in which the bad-mortgages were insured. We've got stock trades happening in fractions of a second buying and selling billions based upon the decisions of computer programs.

The stock crash followed the property value crash, employment crash & consequent mortgage loan crash. Derivatives are complex, but their instabilities were manifested later, & did not precipitate the depression/recession. Regulation could have value there, but this is no cure for overall system instability.

Yes, and I think that is related to the fact that voters have no clue (almost zero clue) how the financial sector works. Large scale fraud is guaranteed.

Fraud was a problem in the S&L crisis (bogus appraisals, borrower fraud), but far less so in this one. Lenders did as the government commanded, which exacerbated property value inflation to dysfunctional levels.

Were I dictator, I would (among other things):
- End homeowner tax & lending subsidies.
- End government guarantees & lending.
- Require the IRS to follow GAAP (generally accepted accounting procedures)
- Require the IRS to finance taxpayer liabilities due to windfalls which don't generate income.
- Ditch most lending regulations, but require transparency & enforce useful reserve requirements for banks.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I am the type that would be much better off running my own business. I tend to get fed up with the bs of higher-ups, do things the way that is more efficient (rather than by procedure), and I am not afraid nor hesitant to argue with my superiors on principle.
Not everyone does want their own business, but some of us don't want to bend over for some unappreciative prick who really doesn't care.

No argument here.....Many home based start ups began because people wanted to be their own boss. If one has an idea or an idea to improve on an existing product of service then I say go for it.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

This is the first time I've heard that Obamacare will be sending checks full of other people's money for people sitting around and doing nothing. Sounds like another right-wing false equivalency.

I wasn't talking about Obamacare.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I wasn't talking about Obamacare.

That's what the thread is about, and it did seem to be another "the poor are lazy and want to sit on their lazy ***** to collect a check" sort of statement. I don't know about you, but I have only known a few "lazy check collecting" people compared to the several hard working-yet poor workers I have known. I've known one girl who is lazy and who did leech up welfare checks, and I use to work with a guy who was a retired Marine and who worked on a farm yet he died poor. There is absolutely no correlation between hard work and being financially secure/well-off.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

and it did seem to be another "the poor are lazy and want to sit on their lazy ***** to collect a check" sort of statement.

That's because it was, and I stand by it. You only stay poor if you allow yourself to. There is not a single person who was no choice in the matter and is doomed to a life of poverty. That's exactly the kind of pathetic attitude that keeps people broke.

I don't know about you, but I have only known a few "lazy check collecting" people compared to the several hard working-yet poor workers I have known.

Everyone I know that works hard doesn't stay poor for long. When I say "working hard", I'm referring to making strides toward advancement, not doing physically demanding or stressful work. Any douche can pick things up and put them down. The real hard worker is the one that starts off with the menial labor and climbs the ladder to be the one doing little to no work for the highest pay. My parents started off with nothing; I grew up in the projects in a ****** neighborhood in Boston. Rather than moping about how the government isn't helping them enough, they toughed it out, picked up multiple jobs, and demanded advancement when it was due. Now they own a house in the suburbs and make 6 figure salaries. Moral of the story is: when life gives you lemons, you make a new life.

There is absolutely no correlation between hard work and being financially secure/well-off.

That is absolutely 100% false. But hey, whatever helps you sleep at night :sarcastic...

 

[Magic Man]

I hear this a lot, but what I see is that we had too much regulation

Yes, too much regulation...which explains why a lack of regulation was to blame for the financial crisis.

We had government actually requiring lenders to make risky home loans

Ah, yes, the old "the government forced them to do it" nonsense. Yes, because the banks wouldn't find a way around it if the government did actually try to force them to do something that was not in their financial best interest.

 

[Magic Man]

That's because it was, and I stand by it. You only stay poor if you allow yourself to. There is not a single person who was no choice in the matter and is doomed to a life of poverty. That's exactly the kind of pathetic attitude that keeps people broke.

It's exactly this kind of fantasy that keeps people like you feeling better about themselves and keeps the problem of poverty as large as it is.

Everyone I know that works hard doesn't stay poor for long.

Ah, well, I'm sorry. I didn't realize you had anecdotal evidence to support your broad generalization.

When I say "working hard", I'm referring to making strides toward advancement, not doing physically demanding or stressful work. Any douche can pick things up and put them down. The real hard worker is the one that starts off with the menial labor and climbs the ladder to be the one doing little to no work for the highest pay. My parents started off with nothing; I grew up in the projects in a ****** neighborhood in Boston. Rather than moping about how the government isn't helping them enough, they toughed it out, picked up multiple jobs, and demanded advancement when it was due. Now they own a house in the suburbs and make 6 figure salaries. Moral of the story is: when life gives you lemons, you make a new life.

Well, I guess since two people in one situation were able to do it, that means everyone in every situation can do it! Hooray!

Or could it be that not everyone is the same and they're not all in exactly the same situation? Now I'm just confusing myself.

By the way, not everyone has the ability or desire to get those great jobs making 6 figures. We need people willing to do the "lesser" jobs too. Everyone can't just decide to become CEOs. Nobody's asking for the menial jobs to make 6 figures either, or anything close to it. People who work their way up are still plenty welcome to do that and be better off financially. We just need better pay and benefits for he jobs that we still need people to do that aren't the "good" jobs".

 

[Brickjectivity]

The stock crash followed the property value crash, employment crash & consequent mortgage loan crash. Derivatives are complex, but their instabilities were manifested later, & did not precipitate the depression/recession. Regulation could have value there, but this is no cure for overall system instability.

Yes, yes and yes. Derivatives didn't cause the recession, and basic derivatives aren't too hard to understand. Things ought to be much more transparent, but finance is currently more complicated than IT. There is no cure for system instability, true that.

Fraud was a problem in the S&L crisis (bogus appraisals, borrower fraud), but far less so in this one. Lenders did as the government commanded, which exacerbated property value inflation to dysfunctional levels.

Yes, it is hard to find an individual to blame; but even I knew while working hard on construction years ago that the real estate market was sick. People were buying houses only to sell them again at a profit, over and over. Houses greatly increased in price, perhaps doubling or tripling in price in under 10 years. I knew somebody was bound to get crapped on, and also there was no way on Earth that I was going to afford a house with those inflating house prices which were also pushing up apartment rents. Prices kept going up, and the real estate people preferred not to think about the Ponzi scheme they were implementing. Construction proceeded and increased. I did not like it, and I knew real estate values were going crazy as early as 2002. Ten years later we blame the whole rotten mess on poor lending practices, but that is a load of crap.

 

[tytlyf]

The Housing market collapsed because the government guaranteed all loans. So there was no downside to private mortgage companies giving everyone they could a loan (knowing very well people aren't qualified).
Greed.
I find it hilarious people call for LESS reform on wallstreet, etc.

 

[Revoltingest]

The Housing market collapsed because the government guaranteed all loans. So there was no downside to private mortgage companies giving everyone they could a loan (knowing very well people aren't qualified).
Greed.

That is only one element of the problem.
Example: Governmental regulations (eg, Community Reinvestment Act) requiring risky lending.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yes, yes and yes. Derivatives didn't cause the recession, and basic derivatives aren't too hard to understand. Things ought to be much more transparent, but finance is currently more complicated than IT. There is no cure for system instability, true that.

Yes, it is hard to find an individual to blame; but even I knew while working hard on construction years ago that the real estate market was sick. People were buying houses only to sell them again at a profit, over and over. Houses greatly increased in price, perhaps doubling or tripling in price in under 10 years. I knew somebody was bound to get crapped on, and also there was no way on Earth that I was going to afford a house with those inflating house prices which were also pushing up apartment rents. Prices kept going up, and the real estate people preferred not to think about the Ponzi scheme they were implementing. Construction proceeded and increased. I did not like it, and I knew real estate values were going crazy as early as 2002. Ten years later we blame the whole rotten mess on poor lending practices, but that is a load of crap.

Tis a many faceted problem which spans at least half a century of misbehavior on both sides of the aisle. Even now, lavish homeowner subsidies continue, with Obama & the NAR (Realtors) leading the charge.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

It's exactly this kind of fantasy that keeps people like you feeling better about themselves and keeps the problem of poverty as large as it is.

What do you mean "people like you"? I work hard for my money like anyone else does... Only difference is I don't blame the government or society when I'm not making enough; my income is MY problem, nobody else's.

Well, I guess since two people in one situation were able to do it, that means everyone in every situation can do it! Hooray!

Or could it be that not everyone is the same and they're not all in exactly the same situation? Now I'm just confusing myself.

Everyone in every situation CAN do it. It's harder for some than others, but there's nobody to blame but yourself if you're not making the amount of money you want to. Nobody HAS TO stay poor, but playing the victim is more likely to keep you there. The sooner people realize that life isn't fair and nobody cares about their problems, the sooner they can do something about it and get out of their bad situation.

By the way, not everyone has the ability or desire to get those great jobs making 6 figures. We need people willing to do the "lesser" jobs too.

And the people with no desire to advance can do the lesser jobs... I don't see where I said anything different. I said people choose to remain in their respective financial situations. Nobody chooses to be born poor, but whatever happens afterwards is completely up to you. Not sure what's so controversial about saying people are in control of their own lives...

We just need better pay and benefits for he jobs that we still need people to do that aren't the "good" jobs".

You can always work more than one job...

 

[freethinker44]

Everyone in every situation CAN do it. It's harder for some than others, but there's nobody to blame but yourself if you're not making the amount of money you want to. Nobody HAS TO stay poor, but playing the victim is more likely to keep you there. The sooner people realize that life isn't fair and nobody cares about their problems, the sooner they can do something about it and get out of their bad situation.

That is absolutely false. Opportunities simply do not exist for everyone. Everyone can't be successful, not everyone can be a CEO or a billionaire, there must be people who fail no matter how hard we work or how long we work there will be people who must suffer because another succeeded. That's how our society is designed. If everyone in the US held doctorates and worked 18 hours a day, including all children, there would still be people who could not survive off of the wages they are paid. That's because a capitalist society is a feudal society.

You are right, life isn't fair. But not by necessity, it's because we designed it to be unfair.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

That is absolutely false. Opportunities simply do not exist for everyone. Everyone can't be successful, not everyone can be a CEO or a billionaire, there must be people who fail no matter how hard we work or how long we work there will be people who must suffer because another succeeded. That's how our society is designed. If everyone in the US held doctorates and worked 18 hours a day, including all children, there would still be people who could not survive off of the wages they are paid. That's because a capitalist society is a feudal society.

You are right, life isn't fair. But not by necessity, it's because we designed it to be unfair.

Anyone can be successful; not everyone can do it the conventional way. True, only a few can be CEOs, but others can hold multiple menial jobs, or sell drugs and children... There is always an opportunity to make money. You need only have the balls to take it. Keep in mind I said ANYONE; not EVERYONE. I should have in my first post, but I figured that much was implied.

 

[Magic Man]

What do you mean "people like you"?

People who buy into this conservative fantasy that hard work equals success, and if you're poor, it's always your fault because you're lazy.

I work hard for my money like anyone else does... Only difference is I don't blame the government or society when I'm not making enough; my income is MY problem, nobody else's.

That's great. I'm glad you work hard and make decent or good money. Now, what is your advice to people who are doing necessary jobs and working hard but aren't even making enough to afford health insurance, and in some cases not even enough to support their kid or kids? Remember, these people are already working hard and are doing necessary jobs, meaning you can't advise them just to move up the ladder because not everyone can do that.

Everyone in every situation CAN do it. It's harder for some than others, but there's nobody to blame but yourself if you're not making the amount of money you want to. Nobody HAS TO stay poor, but playing the victim is more likely to keep you there. The sooner people realize that life isn't fair and nobody cares about their problems, the sooner they can do something about it and get out of their bad situation.

Again, I'm sure this makes you feel much better about yourself, but it's way too black and white for reality. The difference between being poor and not being poor is not simply a matter of working harder or even smarter. As you say, for some it's harder than for others. For some it's nearly impossible. It's easy for someone who hasn't had to deal with a lot of what some of the less fortunate people have had to, to say "Oh, everyone can do it, if they just try hard enough". Someone shouldn't have to work 50 times harder than I've had to just to make a decent living. I'm not talking about someone trying to make 6 figures or even something like $75,000. I'm just talking about making enough to afford some basics like health insurance.

And the people with no desire to advance can do the lesser jobs... I don't see where I said anything different.

Then you missed the point. The point is all (well, most jobs) are necessary. It's not like all the fast food workers can just work harder and move out of their jobs. It reminds me of the push towards college these days, and ads from local colleges saying things like "come get an education and be more successful than your menial job". It sounds great, but it's not for everyone. But now everyone has to go to college, because a degree is about the equivalent of a high-school diploma years ago. The world needs ditch diggers, and fast-food workers and trashmen, etc. too. Some people have to do those jobs as more than just a stop-gap until they hit the big time. So, all we're saying is those jobs should be compensated well enough to have a decent life with the ability to afford things like health insurance and not go broke over health care bills. We're not saying they should be wealthy or even necessarily upper middle class or anything. They just shouldn't have to live in poverty.

I said people choose to remain in their respective financial situations.

And you were wrong (in that that's not true for everyone).

Nobody chooses to be born poor, but whatever happens afterwards is completely up to you. Not sure what's so controversial about saying people are in control of their own lives...

Probably the fact that it's wrong, and ignores the reality that it's not as simple as "Oh, well, just do whatever you want". It's a very childlike way to look at things. "Oh, I want to be an astronaut when I grow up." "You can, little Billy, you can be whatever you want to be." We tell kids that because it sounds great, but the world is not so idealized. In reality, there is racism, sexism, classism, and most of the business world is about who you know. I've only gotten one job in my life without it being because I knew someone who got me in. And I'm a middle-class white guy.

You can always work more than one job...

Wonderful. "Hey, I know you're not making a livable wage at the job you're already working very hard at, and we need people like you to do that job, but the answer is not for us to improve the system to make sure the people like you who are necessary make a livable wage; the answer is for you to be forced to work twice as much as someone like me who happened to be more fortunate than you." What a great message.

Or we can just start paying people who work hard at necessary jobs livable wages that allow them basics like health insurance. But that wouldn't feed into the superiority complex, I guess.