If Obamacare is so great why......

[I.S.L.A.M617]

That's great. I'm glad you work hard and make decent or good money. Now, what is your advice to people who are doing necessary jobs and working hard but aren't even making enough to afford health insurance, and in some cases not even enough to support their kid or kids? Remember, these people are already working hard and are doing necessary jobs, meaning you can't advise them just to move up the ladder because not everyone can do that.

Work more than one job...

Again, I'm sure this makes you feel much better about yourself, but it's way too black and white for reality. The difference between being poor and not being poor is not simply a matter of working harder or even smarter.

That's exactly what the difference is...

Someone shouldn't have to work 50 times harder than I've had to just to make a decent living. I'm not talking about someone trying to make 6 figures or even something like $75,000. I'm just talking about making enough to afford some basics like health insurance.

They shouldn't have to, but they do. Such is life.

In reality, there is racism, sexism, classism, and most of the business world is about who you know.

Excuses, excuses, excuses...

Wonderful. "Hey, I know you're not making a livable wage at the job you're already working very hard at, and we need people like you to do that job, but the answer is not for us to improve the system to make sure the people like you who are necessary make a livable wage; the answer is for you to be forced to work twice as much as someone like me who happened to be more fortunate than you." What a great message.

Not a great message, but it's the reality we live in. If you're not satisfied with your current lifestyle, you should do everything in your power to change it. If that means you have to work harder than the next man, so be it. Beats waiting for the government to handle it for you, as if that's ever going to happen.

 

[Revoltingest]

That is absolutely false. Opportunities simply do not exist for everyone. Everyone can't be successful, not everyone can be a CEO or a billionaire, there must be people who fail no matter how hard we work or how long we work there will be people who must suffer because another succeeded. That's how our society is designed. If everyone in the US held doctorates and worked 18 hours a day, including all children, there would still be people who could not survive off of the wages they are paid. That's because a capitalist society is a feudal society.
You are right, life isn't fair. But not by necessity, it's because we designed it to be unfair.

This is a very dysfunctional view of how capitalism works....& it's far different from feudalism, btw.
Feudalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Capitalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
If everyone were smart, educated & productive, then no one need be poor (by the current standard of poverty). Some might have to take jobs below their skill level at times, & there would still be differences in incomes, but if one has valuable labor to offer there will be work. The poor I personally know have enuf income to survive well, but they generally make horrible decisions, eg, having too many kids, spending money wastefully (fast food, booze), getting into fights. The biggest problem I've had with poor folk I've hired is that they had major faults, eg, lazy, thieving, or dumb. (I could always cure a lack of education.)

 

[Magic Man]

Work more than one job...

Hey, there's that wonderful advice again! Now do you have any advice that isn't ignorant of reality and really just mean?

That's exactly what the difference is...

Must be fun in your world. Alas, I'm stuck here in complicated reality.

They shouldn't have to, but they do. Such is life.

Whether or not they do is not the question. The question is should they have to. We agree they shouldn't, so now we can talk about how to change it so they don't have to, like it is in some other developed countries. Contrary to your implication, it doesn't have to be this way.

Excuses, excuses, excuses...

Haha, yeah, that's all they are. I mean, geez, just get over the whole "having to deal with everything working against you", right? I mean, since you haven't had to deal with it all, you're the perfect person to tell others how to react to a situation you haven't dealt with, right?

Not a great message, but it's the reality we live in.

This seems to be the disconnect. You keep focusing on the way things are, for some reason, while I'm focusing on how things should be. If you want to just state how things are, this would be very easy and short. If you want to start discussing how things should be changed, that's what I'm trying to do.

If you're not satisfied with your current lifestyle, you should do everything in your power to change it. If that means you have to work harder than the next man, so be it.

Again, it's not that simple. "Everything in your power" may not be enough, which is the main problem. But beyond that you're still ignoring my main point. There are jobs in America that need to be done. We need people to dig ditches, and work at fast food restaurants, etc. We can't just have all of those people just work harder, or get a degree or something and move on to better jobs. We would still need other people to do the jobs they vacated. "Work harder and move up the ladder to improve your situation" only works on an individual level (and doesn't even work that well at that). It doesn't solve the overall problem of having so many jobs where people work hard full-time and don't make enough to not be poor. All I'm saying is those people need help in one form or another. Or if they all take your advice and get better jobs, then the people who take over for them need help. And you can't then give that second group the same advice, because there'd be no better jobs left for them. Either we need to change it so that they make a livable wage, or change our assistance programs. But just telling them to work more jobs doesn't cut it.

 

[Magic Man]

If everyone were smart, educated & productive, then no one need be poor (by the current standard of poverty). Some might have to take jobs below their skill level at times, & there would still be differences in incomes, but if one has valuable labor to offer there will be work.

Sure, this is true. I think the main problem is not always paying people who work hard a livable wage.

The poor I personally know have enuf income to survive well, but they generally make horrible decisions, eg, having too many kids, spending money wastefully (fast food, booze), getting into fights. The biggest problem I've had with poor folk I've hired is that they had major faults, eg, lazy, thieving, or dumb. (I could always cure a lack of education.)

I don't think anyone will argue that the things you list contribute to poverty. I think the disagreement comes in when you try to argue that those things accounts for all of poverty, or even the vast majority of it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Work more than one job...

Plenty of people already do this. Some people even work three or four jobs just to barely scrape by.

They shouldn't have to, but they do. Such is life.

What about parents who, instead of looking for work, are busy trying to find food to feed their family?

Excuses, excuses, excuses...

I recently had a job app rejected because of the credit check which turned up the problems I had several years ago. It doesn't matter that I have learned from my mistakes and have turned my life around. All they saw was what I had done years ago.
And, yeah, racism, sexism, and bigotry in general do indeed play a major role. It isn't too hard to find people who are homosexual or transgender who lost their jobs for no other reason than that.

Not a great message, but it's the reality we live in. If you're not satisfied with your current lifestyle, you should do everything in your power to change it. If that means you have to work harder than the next man, so be it. Beats waiting for the government to handle it for you, as if that's ever going to happen.

Do you think people just give up? Of course there are a handful of people who do just sit around for a check and abuse the system, but most people do actually try as hard as they can.

 

[Revoltingest]

Sure, this is true. I think the main problem is not always paying people who work hard a livable wage.

Working hard is not enuf by itself. It's more about the value of the work.
A professional french fry upsizer will seldom make much money.

I don't think anyone will argue that the things you list contribute to poverty. I think the disagreement comes in when you try to argue that those things accounts for all of poverty, or even the vast majority of it.

Do you claim that I tried to argue that?

 

[Revoltingest]

I recently had a job app rejected because of the credit check which turned up the problems I had several years ago. It doesn't matter that I have learned from my mistakes and have turned my life around. All they saw was what I had done years ago.
And, yeah, racism, sexism, and bigotry in general do indeed play a major role. It isn't too hard to find people who are homosexual or transgender who lost their jobs for no other reason than that.

But there are those of us who look past such things when hiring.
A credit problem would be fine for some jobs, but unacceptable for other. We've all been turned down by employers for reasons which aren't "fair", but so long as we have ample other opportunities, it's approximately fair. I've been turned down for being white & male (University nuclear reactor job back in the days of affirmative racism....er, affirmative action). I just took another job where my demographic didn't hurt (bouncer in a gym).

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Haha, yeah, that's all they are. I mean, geez, just get over the whole "having to deal with everything working against you", right? I mean, since you haven't had to deal with it all, you're the perfect person to tell others how to react to a situation you haven't dealt with, right?

I'm a mixed race brown kid from Boston; I deal with racism and discrimination on a regular basis... I just don't play the race card every time things don't work in my favor. It's easy to scream "racism" and blame society for your problems. I prefer to accept that some people are ignorant and pursue my goals anyway.

 

[Magic Man]

Working hard is not enuf by itself. It's more about the value of the work.
A professional french fry upsizer will seldom make much money.

Sure, which is why I'm not saying to pay such people a lot of money, just a livable wage.

Do you claim that I tried to argue that?

No, but others do, as we see with ISLAM here. But I wasn't trying to imply you argue that.

 

[Magic Man]

I'm a mixed race brown kid from Boston; I deal with racism and discrimination on a regular basis... I just don't play the race card every time things don't work in my favor. It's easy to scream "racism" and blame society for your problems. I prefer to accept that some people are ignorant and pursue my goals anyway.

Good, now all you have to do is acknowledge the effect racism and other biases have on people's lives, and how it means it's not as easy as just "choosing to change your situation".

 

[Reverend Rick]

Sure, which is why I'm not saying to pay such people a lot of money, just a livable wage.

A living wage is alot of money Matt. You cannot pay a living wage to someone who's work is of low value. These jobs are suppose to be starter jobs not careers.

Please allow me to steer this thread back on topic. I believe people should take responsibility on their own for simple medical care.

I want people to have health insurance not a health care plan. The difference would be that insurance would not kick in until they got doctor bills that is impossible for them to pay on their own.

 

[Magic Man]

A living wage is alot of money Matt. You cannot pay a living wage to someone who's work is of low value. These jobs are suppose to be starter jobs not careers.

Not all of them. Plenty of the jobs that don't pay a living wage are not starter jobs. And so what if a living wage is a lot of money? So, people working hard full-time don't deserve a living wage unless their work is extra valuable?

Please allow me to steer this thread back on topic. I believe people should take responsibility on their own for simple medical care.

I want people to have health insurance not a health care plan. The difference would be that insurance would not kick in until they got doctor bills that is impossible for them to pay on their own.

Or we can just do it the simple easy way and have a public plan that works exactly as private health insurance works now, except it would have more control in order to keep costs down.

 

[tumbleweed41]

A living wage is alot of money Matt. You cannot pay a living wage to someone who's work is of low value.

Interesting.

Define "low value" work.

For example, would you define a daycare worker charged with the care of your child as "low value"?
How about a nursing aid? Security guard? Pharmacy assistant? Ambulance driver? Agricultural workers?
Are they all "low value" jobs?

 

[freethinker44]

You cannot pay a living wage to someone who's work is of low value.

If stocking shelves at Walmart or flipping burgers at Mcdonalds is low value work, than the CEO who runs those companies is low value work, yet they get paid millions. These are companies where nearly every job they have is considered low value. They are making billions off the hard work of their low wage employees and provide little or no benefits. Not paying a livable wage isn't slave labor, it's actually kind of worse. At least slaves are provided food and shelter, these "low value" employees aren't even given that.

 

[freethinker44]

Interesting.

Define "low value" work.

For example, would you define a daycare worker charged with the care of your child as "low value"?
How about a nursing aid? Security guard? Pharmacy assistant? Ambulance driver? Agricultural workers?
Are they all "low value" jobs?

I would say if you can't run your business without someone performing that job, than it isn't low value.

 

[Revoltingest]

I would say if you can't run your business without someone performing that job, than it isn't low value.

That method of valuation isn't used in the market though. Example: It isn't possible to run a McDonalds without fry cooks, but the value contributed by an individual fry cook is low, the difference between one & another is small, & there is an ample supply of them. Both of these factors keep their pay down. Contrast this with a manager, whose performance can make or break a store, & good managers are harder to find. Thus, they command a higher wage.
The engineer vs assembly line worker is similar.

 

[freethinker44]

That method of valuation isn't used in the market though. Example: It isn't possible to run a McDonalds without fry cooks, but the value contributed by an individual fry cook is low, the difference between one & another is small, & there is an ample supply of them. Both of these factors keep their pay down. Contrast this with a manager, whose performance can make or break a store, & good managers are harder to find. Thus, they command a higher wage.
The engineer vs assembly line worker is similar.

I'm not seeing it. Managers are just as replaceable as common laborers. For every manager in place, there are ten people under him/her waiting to take their place. But I'm not really talking about supervisors and managers, I'm talking about executives. In places like McDonalds and Walmart, the people who manage the individual stores and restaurants aren't paid much better than regular employees.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm not seeing it. Managers are just as replaceable as common laborers. For every manager in place, there are ten people under him/her waiting to take their place.

They might want the job, but a good manager is a scarcer commodity than a good fry cook. And the manager makes a greater difference to profit than does a fry cook.

But I'm not really talking about supervisors and managers, I'm talking about executives. In places like McDonalds and Walmart, the people who manage the individual stores and restaurants aren't paid much better than regular employees.

Good executives are the scarcest breed of all (aside from building tradesmen who show up & finish a job on time). And they have a greater effect on the bottom line. Have you ever worked as one or with them? I have, & this is what I see.

 

[Daemon Sophic]

That method of valuation isn't used in the market though. Example: It isn't possible to run a McDonalds without fry cooks, but the value contributed by an individual fry cook is low, the difference between one & another is small, & there is an ample supply of them. Both of these factors keep their pay down. Contrast this with a manager, whose performance can make or break a store, & good managers are harder to find. Thus, they command a higher wage.

I agree with Freethinker here. One of our major problems in the US is that so many workplaces are too top heavy. Your post reminds me of a GOP happy-time youtube of a bigtime CEO yelling at some 99percenter protesters, stating that his company would die without him, and that his existence creates over 500 jobs. . :no:
I almost shot coffee out my nose, and told the screen "No. If you died today, they would have your replacement signed on before nightfall.....and likely he or she would happily and easily do your job for 1/10th the salary." :slap:

The engineer vs assembly line worker is similar.

This on the other hand is an entirely different story. Individuals with actual intellectual input, and design abilities actually do make the company. They see a need, they create the solution and make it workable. They hire workers to mass produce it.

Eventually, when the small business get too big, they hire an accountant to keep the books, pay the staff, keep track of staffing, safety materials, toilet paper, etc.... Then the accountant pencils in extra staff to help out, and calls himself an "administrator". Like athlete's foot, or any other fungus....they multiply and justify their own pay raises. :yes:
The lucky intellectual gets bought out. The unlucky ones are not smooth enough operators to resist the coup, and end up as employees. :cover:

Remember. People are NOT job creators.....Demand is.

 

[Revoltingest]

I agree with Freethinker here. One of our major problems in the US is that so many workplaces are too top heavy.

That is a separate issue. Most companies I've worked for were lean. A couple were not, & the market punished them severely for this.

Your post reminds me of a GOP happy-time youtube of a bigtime CEO yelling at some 99percenter protesters, stating that his company would die without him, and that his existence creates over 500 jobs. . :no:

If you skip the stereotyping & prejudging, then I won't say how you seem like some unwashed unemployed drug addled lazy anti-establishment commie hippie who wears argyle sox with his Birkenstocks. (Btw, we dress similarly.)

I almost shot coffee out my nose, and told the screen "No. If you died today, they would have your replacement signed on before nightfall.....and likely he or she would happily and easily do your job for 1/10th the salary." :slap:

If they could do that when I died, then they'd have already done it.
There is no loyalty to me.

This on the other hand is an entirely different story. Individuals with actual intellectual input, and design abilities actually do make the company. They see a need, they create the solution and make it workable. They hire workers to mass produce it.

You severely underestimate the value that a quality executive brings to a company. I've seen this & the opposite. The good ones are worth a lot.

Eventually, when the small business get too big, they hire an accountant to keep the books, pay the staff, keep track of staffing, safety materials, toilet paper, etc.... Then the accountant pencils in extra staff to help out, and calls himself an "administrator". Like athlete's foot, or any other fungus....they multiply and justify their own pay raises. :yes:
The lucky intellectual gets bought out. The unlucky ones are not smooth enough operators to resist the coup, and end up as employees. :cover:

Do you work in an executive capacity or have you started a company which you managed?

Remember. People are NOT job creators.....Demand is.

That's just empty leftish posturing.
Demand without the Edisons, Westinghouses, etc, etc, is just unmet demand & inefficient economy