If Obamacare is so great why......

[tumbleweed41]

:yes: Exactly! All it takes to get ahead is the ambition necessary to achieve your goals. You can blame racism, discrimination, and low wages for menial jobs, but in the end it comes down to how hard you're willing to work to get what you want.

So, the 58% of Americans living below the poverty line are are simply lazy?

Sorry, but that is a overly simplistic view of the world that ignores the reality of life outside of your personal reality.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

So, the 58% of Americans living below the poverty line are are simply lazy?

I wouldn't go so far as to say lazy. Many of them do physically demanding, difficult work. There are also a large number under the poverty line who are only there temporarily and are making strides towards success. I think the rest lack the ambition to make a better life for themselves, which isn't to say they don't want to work, just that they think the work they do is somehow deserving of more money and refuse to go the extra mile in order to get what they want. There is a serious entitlement issue in this country.

Sorry, but that is a overly simplistic view of the world that ignores the reality of life outside of your personal reality.

Mind telling me what you believe my personal reality is?

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Man, you're just shooting down those strawmen! Look at you go! Don't let me stop you; keep going! Any other arguments no one has made that you want to shoot down as unrealistic?

So you're NOT saying that individual success has little to do with the effort of the individual, and those given the unfair advantage should be doing more to contribute to the well-being of those who never had a fair chance in the first place? Where exactly did I misinterpret your argument?

 

[Magic Man]

they think the work they do is somehow deserving of more money and refuse to go the extra mile in order to get what they want. There is a serious entitlement issue in this country.

Yeah, those crazy people working hard full-time thinking they deserve to at least not be poor! Such entitlement!

 

[Magic Man]

So you're NOT saying that individual success has little to do with the effort of the individual, and those given the unfair advantage should be doing more to contribute to the well-being of those who never had a fair chance in the first place? Where exactly did I misinterpret your argument?

I think you misinterpreted in a bunch of places. What I'm saying is that it's not as simple as "you control your own destiny". There are a lot of other factors at work. You certainly increase your chances by working hard and putting in the effort to get somewhere, but that doesn't guarantee anything. The main thing that needs to happen is for pay to even out a bit. I have no problem with CEOs making dozens of millions of dollars. I do, however, have a problem with it when it's coupled with so many people working hard and not getting a livable wage. It's one thing when that CEO is making 20 times the average worker. It's another thing entirely when he's making 300 times the average worker.

All I'm saying is the guy digging ditches is doing good, hard work, and deserves at least to not live in poverty. Sure, his work may not be worth $80,000, but no one's asking for that. Of course I use this as a vague example, but you could insert many such jobs.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Yeah, those crazy people working hard full-time thinking they deserve to at least not be poor! Such entitlement!

Really though... Nobody deserves anything. It's a matter of what you're willing to take.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Really though... Nobody deserves anything. It's a matter of what you're willing to take.

Neo-Rand Objectivism.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I have no problem with CEOs making dozens of millions of dollars. I do, however, have a problem with it when it's coupled with so many people working hard and not getting a livable wage. It's one thing when that CEO is making 20 times the average worker. It's another thing entirely when he's making 300 times the average worker.

I think this helps to put things in perspective. There are people at or below the poverty line that are struggling but studies show that it's not isolated to them. Looking at it from the top down you'll notices not much movement in income by those in the top 20%. Even worse are those below that. Their pay has stagnated. We also know that productivity has gone up while wages have remained relatively the same.


It's the Inequality, Stupid | Mother Jones

 

[Falvlun]

Really though... Nobody deserves anything. It's a matter of what you're willing to take.

The problem with this is that unfettered capitalism provides no safeguards for the worker.

If wages keep being depressed by companies looking to maximize their profits (to remain competitive with all the other companies doing the same thing), it's not a "matter of what you're willing to take". It's a matter of "this is the only thing available".

So, what used to be $10/hr work becomes $5/hr work, and people are glad to take it because they need to eat dinner.

And when these people start saying that they aren't making enough to reliably eat dinner, the answer becomes "Get a second job, you lazy scum." So they get another job at $5/hr.

So now they are working twice as much to get the same amount of money that these jobs used to pay. Do you really think that in such a world, it is the worker's fault for being willing to take the only jobs available for the pay offered?

I believe in a meritocracy. The problem is that we don't live in one. And it is pretty naive to think that we do.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Look at your paycheck, that is exactly what your employer thinks you're worth.

Do you disagree? Do something about it. Demand to be treated fairly or walk.

If everyone did this, pay would be higher.

So, you're pro union?

 

[Magic Man]

Really though... Nobody deserves anything. It's a matter of what you're willing to take.

Ah, yes, no need for civilized society. Let's just live in prehistoric times where might makes right. Good call.

 

[Daemon Sophic]

So, you're pro union?

Or perhaps he is pro-Marxist revolution? French revolution?
Both are valid historical examples of the middle and lower economic classes simply doing what they felt was necessary to keep their children from starving to death in the face of terrible income disparity. :yes:

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Ah, yes, no need for civilized society. Let's just live in prehistoric times where might makes right. Good call.

Though force is a great option, it's not the only way to get what you want. I thought someone that stressed the importance of everything not being black and white would know that...

 

[Magic Man]

Though force is a great option, it's not the only way to get what you want. I thought someone that stressed the importance of everything not being black and white would know that...

That's great, but you're advocating might makes right when you say "Nobody deserves anything. It's a matter of what you're willing to take". If that's the case, it really is about force.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

That's great, but you're advocating might makes right when you say "Nobody deserves anything. It's a matter of what you're willing to take". If that's the case, it really is about force.

I never said I wasn't advocating "might makes right". Force is definitely one way to get what you want. But it's not as if the only options are "raise the minimum wage or beat someone's head in with a rock"... There are other ways to succeed, like, I dunno.... Working hard.

 

[Reverend Rick]

So, you're pro union?

I am not anti-union. I was in a union for 7 years of my life. My son is in a union and doing quite well. My father and father-in-law worked in a union for decades.

My company when I ran it paid above union wage rates, so I got some of the best workers out there. My workers did not feel the need to organise because I treated them well but expected on and beyond productivity which allowed me to pay them the way I did.

My unproductive employees where called into the office. I told them one of two things where going to happen, they could expect to receive a raise of be fired, it was all up to them.

 

[Magic Man]

I never said I wasn't advocating "might makes right". Force is definitely one way to get what you want. But it's not as if the only options are "raise the minimum wage or beat someone's head in with a rock"... There are other ways to succeed, like, I dunno.... Working hard.

You said "Nobody deserves anything. It's a matter of what you're willing to take". That's might makes right anarchy. With that situation, force is how you take what you want.

As for your last sentence, that claim by you is what got you to the point of saying the quote I just quoted above. Working hard is not the difference maker you'd like it to be. Plenty of people work hard (harder than you or me) and don't make a livable wage. Your response to that is they don't deserve anything and they have to be willing to take stuff. Essentially your argument against my response to your idea about working hard is to go back to might makes right anarchy, so responding to me pointing that out by circling back to your argument that led to that only gets us right back here.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I believe in some big companies, the powers that be who have the ability to raise wages don't even know your name much less how hard you work. Smaller companies can afford to pay more because a larger company would spend a fortune even giving a small raise to everyone.

If you took the whole CEO's sallary and gave it to all the employees it would not be much of a raise for everyone in a large company.

 

[tumbleweed41]

I am not anti-union. I was in a union for 7 years of my life. My son is in a union and doing quite well. My father and father-in-law worked in a union for decades.

My company when I ran it paid above union wage rates, so I got some of the best workers out there. My workers did not feel the need to organise because I treated them well but expected on and beyond productivity which allowed me to pay them the way I did.

My unproductive employees where called into the office. I told them one of two things where going to happen, they could expect to receive a raise of be fired, it was all up to them.

If only more companies realized the value of the workers they depended on.

So, you actually paid your workers a livable wage. I can appreciate that and applaud you for expecting a return on your investment in them.

I am still wondering about what jobs you consider "low value" and unworthy of a living wage.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I am still wondering about what jobs you consider "low value" and unworthy of a living wage.

Jobs that require you to train or constantly supervise someone. Mostly entry level jobs were the person basically comes to you with nothing, no experience, no training, no work history, little education.

Look at tradesmen, they make a decent living. They also have experience, training, and a bunch of money invested in tools they bring to work with them.

Other examples are people who can only work certain hours, they are worth less.

All that said, after a person has worked for you a few years and proved themselves to be honest, dependable and display a good work ethic they should be paid more than the person who starts their very first job.

Starting at the bottom is not a death sentance.