If soul is reduced to Physics, how atheists believe in soul?

[Milton Platt]

INTRODUCTION:

MY CONTRIBUTION:

I find it inconsistent, that modern atheists deny Existent God in favor of Non-existent one because they accept everything, which is not the Existing God: e.g., the satan, freewill, love, hope, and soul.

And believe it or not, but Physics can be reduced to mathematics in the way down to Absolute Solipsism: "the mathematical universe hypothesis" (Wikipedia). However, that is not true, because the "virtual terms" are used in Physics (it is my contribution Gravity Law Without Universalism is Solving Many Tasks, viXra.org e-Print archive, viXra:2007.0112
). These virtual terms can not be reduced to mathematics.

Your post does not make much sense. What existing god? What Satan? What non-existing god? Atheism is not a belief. It is non-belief.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Your post does not make much sense. What existing god? What Satan? What non-existing god? Atheism is not a belief. It is non-belief.

Sure. And yet you have the organisation American Atheists, which are beyond atheism, yet use atheism.
Our Vision | American Atheists

• Stimulate and promote freedom of thought and inquiry concerning religious beliefs, creeds, dogmas, tenets, rituals, and practices;
• Collect, preserve, and disseminate information, data, and literature on all religions and promote a more thorough understanding of them, their origins, and their histories;
• Advocate, labor for, and promote in all lawful ways the establishment and maintenance of a thoroughly secular system of education available to all;
• Encourage the development and public acceptance of a humane ethical system stressing the mutual sympathy, understanding, and interdependence of all people and the corresponding responsibility of each individual in relation to society;
• Develop and propagate a social philosophy in which humankind is central and must itself be the source of strength, progress, and ideals for the wellbeing and happiness of humanity;
• Promote the study of the arts and sciences and of all problems affecting the maintenance, perpetuation, and enrichment of human (and other) life; and,
• Engage in such social, educational, legal, and cultural activity as well as be useful and beneficial to the members of American Atheists and to society as a whole.

If you then pay attention to what they say, they say that atheists can be religious, yet they also claim this:

Atheism is the comprehensive world view of persons who are free from theism and have freed themselves of supernatural beliefs altogether. It is predicated on ancient Greek Materialism.

So these atheists have a positive belief system. They are materialists, yet all, they have, are non-beliefs.

I am tried of this game. You atheists are both as for the individuals in all cases as individuals non-religious AND religious. You don't have positive beliefs, yet atheism is based on materialism.

And some of you complain that religious people don't understand logic and what not. Well, right, back at some of you atheists.

Now for you, Milton Platt, I am going to ask something of you. As a religious person I am expected to answer for all religious people and responsible for their clams as religious people. So what about you?
Are these atheists wrong in a non-moral sense? Are they not really atheists?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

If soul is reduced to Physics, how atheists believe in soul?

I'm not aware of any atheists who believe in the religious concept of "souls". So the thread title is quite misleading and includes a false assumption / strawmqn.

 

[gnostic]

The Church of Satan is a religious organization dedicated to Satanism as codified in The Satanic Bible. .... Peter H. Gilmore describes its members as "skeptical atheists", embracing the Hebrew root of the word "Satan" as "adversary". Church of Satan - Wikipedia

If people believe in satan, then they really are not atheists, questfortruth.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

INTRODUCTION:

MY CONTRIBUTION:

I find it inconsistent, that modern atheists deny Existent God in favor of Non-existent one because they accept everything, which is not the Existing God: e.g., the satan, freewill, love, hope, and soul.

And believe it or not, but Physics can be reduced to mathematics in the way down to Absolute Solipsism: "the mathematical universe hypothesis" (Wikipedia). However, that is not true, because the "virtual terms" are used in Physics (it is my contribution Gravity Law Without Universalism is Solving Many Tasks, viXra.org e-Print archive, viXra:2007.0112
). These virtual terms can not be reduced to mathematics.

You want atheists to take a more reductive approach? Speak to philosophical materialists then.
What you're posting here is a complete strawman if applied to 'atheists'. It applies to some atheists (like me, incidentally) but not most.

 

[Milton Platt]

Sure. And yet you have the organisation American Atheists, which are beyond atheism, yet use atheism.
Our Vision | American Atheists


If you then pay attention to what they say, they say that atheists can be religious, yet they also claim this:


So these atheists have a positive belief system. They are materialists, yet all, they have, are non-beliefs.

I am tried of this game. You atheists are both as for the individuals in all cases as individuals non-religious AND religious. You don't have positive beliefs, yet atheism is based on materialism.

And some of you complain that religious people don't understand logic and what not. Well, right, back at some of you atheists.

Now for you, Milton Platt, I am going to ask something of you. As a religious person I am expected to answer for all religious people and responsible for their clams as religious people. So what about you?
Are these atheists wrong in a non-moral sense? Are they not really atheists?

Atheists have plenty of positive beliefs, but atheism isn't one of them....it is a lack of belief. And not all atheists have the same beliefs in other areas. In any case, nothing you listed has anything to do with religion.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Atheists have plenty of positive beliefs, but atheism isn't one of them....it is a lack of belief. And not all atheists have the same beliefs in other areas. In any case, nothing you listed has anything to do with religion.

So are there atheists besides the standard examples of e.g. Buddhism, which are religious?

Yes. I will be using Dictionary by Merriam-Webster: America's most-trusted online dictionary
So supernatural: of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe.
Faith: firm belief in something for which there is no proof; complete trust; something that is believed especially with strong conviction

I am going to treat you like a standard western atheist and assume the following:
You rely on a combination of using evidence, reason, logic/proof and objectivity.

Part 1: of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe.
For this not to bog down, I will use words for which you can ask for definitions for, but I won't give them unless you ask.
The visible observable universe relates to science at testing through observation and being objective. The relevant version of objective is here in regards to supernatural - having reality independent of the mind. Everything you experience, you experience through your mind. I don't mean soul and what not. I mean for you to know something, you refer to an experience, understanding, explanation and so on. All of this requires that you exists with your experience.
So what does having reality independent of the mind mean in practice? Well, for you it is the following. If you are sighted and use a monitor to read this, you will believe this: Independent of your experience of the monitor, is the monitor in itself as the monitor.
But that is not knowable, because the monitor in itself independent of your experience of it. Hence you believe in something as of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe.

Part 2:
In these kinds of debates your kind of atheists will then do one or more of the following:

• Subjectively states that he/she doesn't care or find it irrelevant/meaningless and what not and subjectively ignore it. That is no different that some religious people, who ignore that they have no evidence for their supernatural beliefs, yet still consider their beliefs as with evidence and so on.
• Argue that it makes sense to assume and act as if the monitor is there in itself, while ignoring that it is an act of belief without evidence.
• Argue that it is better or more useful to assume and act as if the monitor is there in itself. And this is subjective.
• The list goes on with variations and they all have in common that it ends in that it subjective makes sense and it is better to do it that way and it is not relevant that it is subjective and without evidence and what not.

Part 3: firm belief in something for which there is no proof; complete trust; something that is believed especially with strong conviction.
You are religious in the following sense: You believe in the monitor in itself being there and you act with firm belief, complete truth in this universe and you will display a strong conviction, that it is so. Further it is supernatural, because the monitor in itself is not a part of the visible observable universe and thus it is of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe.

Part 4:
This kind of naturalism, materialism, physicalism and what not is in the western culture of your subculture of religious atheists taken to be oh so self-evident and is in effect dogmatic. It can't be questioned or doubted, because you as a group are so special. Where everybody else have religious beliefs about - of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe - you don't. It is a form of special pleading: I.e. everybody else relies on religious beliefs in general as it is so for all other humans than us, but we are special, because we are unique. We can do something that no other humans can do. Well, you can't.

The end: So are you one of those atheists? I don't know! And I really don't care. What I care about is this sub-group of atheists, which believe they are so special, but they are not.
So for all humans there are as relevant the following categories:
Those incapable of doing the cognitive process to articulate beliefs about what the universe really is. (You are not one of them).
Those who really don't care about this. (You are not one of them, because you do care).
Those, who believe they are special, because they know, where everybody else fails as for knowledge. (I take you to fall in that category, because that is the most common one for us, who debate this).
Those, who know that it is always a question of supernatural belief and faith and will admit to this. (I am one of those).

Mikkel

 

[gnostic]

So are there atheists besides the standard examples of e.g. Buddhism, which are religious?

Yes. I will be using Dictionary by Merriam-Webster: America's most-trusted online dictionary
So supernatural: of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe.
Faith: firm belief in something for which there is no proof; complete trust; something that is believed especially with strong conviction

I am going to treat you like a standard western atheist and assume the following:
You rely on a combination of using evidence, reason, logic/proof and objectivity.

Part 1: of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe.
For this not to bog down, I will use words for which you can ask for definitions for, but I won't give them unless you ask.
The visible observable universe relates to science at testing through observation and being objective. The relevant version of objective is here in regards to supernatural - having reality independent of the mind. Everything you experience, you experience through your mind. I don't mean soul and what not. I mean for you to know something, you refer to an experience, understanding, explanation and so on. All of this requires that you exists with your experience.
So what does having reality independent of the mind mean in practice? Well, for you it is the following. If you are sighted and use a monitor to read this, you will believe this: Independent of your experience of the monitor, is the monitor in itself as the monitor.
But that is not knowable, because the monitor in itself independent of your experience of it. Hence you believe in something as of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe.

Part 2:
In these kinds of debates your kind of atheists will then do one or more of the following:

• Subjectively states that he/she doesn't care or find it irrelevant/meaningless and what not and subjectively ignore it. That is no different that some religious people, who ignore that they have no evidence for their supernatural beliefs, yet still consider their beliefs as with evidence and so on.
• Argue that it makes sense to assume and act as if the monitor is there in itself, while ignoring that it is an act of belief without evidence.
• Argue that it is better or more useful to assume and act as if the monitor is there in itself. And this is subjective.
• The list goes on with variations and they all have in common that it ends in that it subjective makes sense and it is better to do it that way and it is not relevant that it is subjective and without evidence and what not.

Part 3: firm belief in something for which there is no proof; complete trust; something that is believed especially with strong conviction.
You are religious in the following sense: You believe in the monitor in itself being there and you act with firm belief, complete truth in this universe and you will display a strong conviction, that it is so. Further it is supernatural, because the monitor in itself is not a part of the visible observable universe and thus it is of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe.

Part 4:
This kind of naturalism, materialism, physicalism and what not is in the western culture of your subculture of religious atheists taken to be oh so self-evident and is in effect dogmatic. It can't be questioned or doubted, because you as a group are so special. Where everybody else have religious beliefs about - of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe - you don't. It is a form of special pleading: I.e. everybody else relies on religious beliefs in general as it is so for all other humans than us, but we are special, because we are unique. We can do something that no other humans can do. Well, you can't.

The end: So are you one of those atheists? I don't know! And I really don't care. What I care about is this sub-group of atheists, which believe they are so special, but they are not.
So for all humans there are as relevant the following categories:
Those incapable of doing the cognitive process to articulate beliefs about what the universe really is. (You are not one of them).
Those who really don't care about this. (You are not one of them, because you do care).
Those, who believe they are special, because they know, where everybody else fails as for knowledge. (I take you to fall in that category, because that is the most common one for us, who debate this).
Those, who know that it is always a question of supernatural belief and faith and will admit to this. (I am one of those).

Mikkel

I think you are over-complicating atheism.

Atheism only deal with the questions about the existence of deity or deities, and people who are atheists, simply don’t believe in a god or gods.

That’s it.

It has nothing to do with any other knowledge. No philosophy is required.

Atheism has nothing to do with science.

And it has nothing to do with communism or any other political and social ideology.

Nothing to do with Satanism or witch craft.

And as to being “special”, I don’t think that’s the case too.

It is just you, over-thinking what atheism mean, by adding unnecessary baggage to atheism.

You got some problems with atheists...well that’s your problem. All you are doing is trying to build a castle out of ant hill.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I think you are over-complicating atheism.

Atheism only deal with the questions about the existence of deity or deities, and people who are atheists, simply don’t believe in a god or gods.

That’s it.

It has nothing to do with any other knowledge. No philosophy is required.

Atheism has nothing to do with science.

And it has nothing to do with communism or any other political and social ideology.

Nothing to do with Satanism or witch craft.

And as to being “special”, I don’t think that’s the case too.

It is just you, over-thinking what atheism mean, by adding unnecessary baggage to atheism.

You got some problems with atheists...well that’s your problem. All you are doing is trying to build a castle out of ant hill.

Yeah, I know. Second hit on Google.

What is Atheism? | American Atheists

Atheism is one thing: A lack of belief in gods.
Atheism is not an affirmative belief that there is no god nor does it answer any other question about what a person believes. It is simply a rejection of the assertion that there are gods. Atheism is too often defined incorrectly as a belief system. To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

Our Vision | American Atheists

Aims and Purposes
Therefore, the Aims and Purposes of American Atheists are to:

• Stimulate and promote freedom of thought and inquiry concerning religious beliefs, creeds, dogmas, tenets, rituals, and practices;
• Collect, preserve, and disseminate information, data, and literature on all religions and promote a more thorough understanding of them, their origins, and their histories;
• Advocate, labor for, and promote in all lawful ways the establishment and maintenance of a thoroughly secular system of education available to all;
• Encourage the development and public acceptance of a humane ethical system stressing the mutual sympathy, understanding, and interdependence of all people and the corresponding responsibility of each individual in relation to society;
• Develop and propagate a social philosophy in which humankind is central and must itself be the source of strength, progress, and ideals for the wellbeing and happiness of humanity;
• Promote the study of the arts and sciences and of all problems affecting the maintenance, perpetuation, and enrichment of human (and other) life; and,
• Engage in such social, educational, legal, and cultural activity as well as be useful and beneficial to the members of American Atheists and to society as a whole.

Sound okay, I mean I can even agree with as religious. But here we go, next paragraph.

Definitions
Atheism is the comprehensive world view of persons who are free from theism and have freed themselves of supernatural beliefs altogether. It is predicated on ancient Greek Materialism.

Atheism involves the mental attitude that unreservedly accepts the supremacy of reason and aims at establishing a life-style and ethical outlook verifiable by experience and the scientific method, independent of all arbitrary assumptions of authority and creeds.

Materialism declares that the cosmos is devoid of immanent conscious purpose; that it is governed by its own inherent, immutable, and impersonal laws; that there is no supernatural interference in human life; that humankind, finding the resources within themselves, can and must create their own destiny. It teaches that we must prize our life on earth and strive always to improve it. It holds that human beings are capable of creating a social system based on reason and justice. Materialism’s ‘faith’ is in humankind and their ability to transform the world culture by their own efforts. This is a commitment that is, in its very essence, life-asserting. It considers the struggle for progress as a moral obligation that is impossible without noble ideas that inspire us to bold, creative works. Materialism holds that our potential for good and more fulfilling cultural development is, for all practical purposes, unlimited.

You see, I have been around atheists for over 20 years now. I am one myself, though religious.
The second and third quotes are nothing but philosophy and are in the end without evidence and reason. What they claim, is not possible as per "verifiable by experience and the scientific method".

You see, I tried and it is not possible to do what they claim.
They are believers and their belief in a materialistic universe requires faith.

 

[Milton Platt]

So are there atheists besides the standard examples of e.g. Buddhism, which are religious?

Yes. I will be using Dictionary by Merriam-Webster: America's most-trusted online dictionary
So supernatural: of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe.
Faith: firm belief in something for which there is no proof; complete trust; something that is believed especially with strong conviction

I am going to treat you like a standard western atheist and assume the following:
You rely on a combination of using evidence, reason, logic/proof and objectivity.

Part 1: of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe.
For this not to bog down, I will use words for which you can ask for definitions for, but I won't give them unless you ask.
The visible observable universe relates to science at testing through observation and being objective. The relevant version of objective is here in regards to supernatural - having reality independent of the mind. Everything you experience, you experience through your mind. I don't mean soul and what not. I mean for you to know something, you refer to an experience, understanding, explanation and so on. All of this requires that you exists with your experience.
So what does having reality independent of the mind mean in practice? Well, for you it is the following. If you are sighted and use a monitor to read this, you will believe this: Independent of your experience of the monitor, is the monitor in itself as the monitor.
But that is not knowable, because the monitor in itself independent of your experience of it. Hence you believe in something as of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe.

Part 2:
In these kinds of debates your kind of atheists will then do one or more of the following:

• Subjectively states that he/she doesn't care or find it irrelevant/meaningless and what not and subjectively ignore it. That is no different that some religious people, who ignore that they have no evidence for their supernatural beliefs, yet still consider their beliefs as with evidence and so on.
• Argue that it makes sense to assume and act as if the monitor is there in itself, while ignoring that it is an act of belief without evidence.
• Argue that it is better or more useful to assume and act as if the monitor is there in itself. And this is subjective.
• The list goes on with variations and they all have in common that it ends in that it subjective makes sense and it is better to do it that way and it is not relevant that it is subjective and without evidence and what not.

Part 3: firm belief in something for which there is no proof; complete trust; something that is believed especially with strong conviction.
You are religious in the following sense: You believe in the monitor in itself being there and you act with firm belief, complete truth in this universe and you will display a strong conviction, that it is so. Further it is supernatural, because the monitor in itself is not a part of the visible observable universe and thus it is of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe.

Part 4:
This kind of naturalism, materialism, physicalism and what not is in the western culture of your subculture of religious atheists taken to be oh so self-evident and is in effect dogmatic. It can't be questioned or doubted, because you as a group are so special. Where everybody else have religious beliefs about - of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe - you don't. It is a form of special pleading: I.e. everybody else relies on religious beliefs in general as it is so for all other humans than us, but we are special, because we are unique. We can do something that no other humans can do. Well, you can't.

The end: So are you one of those atheists? I don't know! And I really don't care. What I care about is this sub-group of atheists, which believe they are so special, but they are not.
So for all humans there are as relevant the following categories:
Those incapable of doing the cognitive process to articulate beliefs about what the universe really is. (You are not one of them).
Those who really don't care about this. (You are not one of them, because you do care).
Those, who believe they are special, because they know, where everybody else fails as for knowledge. (I take you to fall in that category, because that is the most common one for us, who debate this).
Those, who know that it is always a question of supernatural belief and faith and will admit to this. (I am one of those).

Mikkel

I do not believe a god exists...therefore I am an atheist....period. Everything else is something else.

 

[tayla]

Physics can be reduced to mathematics

These virtual terms can not be reduced to mathematics.

The universe it not mathematics; it is, well... it is the universe. But mathematics weirdly can describe certain aspects.

Also, consciousness and mind exist. So whatever the universe is, it includes the potential for consciousness and mind to exist exactly as they are.

I doubt we will ever be able to understand why. Our understanding is forever constrained by our conscious experience and by the capabilities of our mind. Reality is bigger than these.

 

[gnostic]

The universe it not mathematics; it is, well... it is the universe. But mathematics weirdly can describe certain aspects.

Also, consciousness and mind exist. So whatever the universe is, it includes the potential for consciousness and mind to exist exactly as they are.

I doubt we will ever be able to understand why. Our understanding is forever constrained by our conscious experience and by the capabilities of our mind. Reality is bigger than these.

The universe exists, in spite of consciousness. The universe have existed long before there were human consciousness, and the universe will go on existing, long after humans go extinct and human consciousness go into oblivion with the human species.

And gods have only existed when humans invented them. These (deities) will cease to exist, when there are no longer humans around.