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If the only way to the father is through Jesus, then what about the Prophets in the OT?

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Jesus said that his followers must know Him to know the father, however, this can't mean the Prophets in the OT; so what exactly does Jesus mean?
There is an logical explanation, imo. As a manifestation of the father, Jesus always existed. We are actually told this in the New Testament; this would mean that the prophets, in essence, did know Jesus, in some form.
In other words, unless Jesus is Deific, saying that He is Deific, this statement, and similar ones, don't make sense.
 
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Forever_Catholic

Active Member
Prophets of the Old Testament did know Jesus in some form, especially King David. But every person who had ever died got to know him for sure right after the crucifixion. They were all in Sheol, the place of the dead, where every soul went until after Jesus died on the cross. That is because heaven had been closed to mankind due to the disobedience of Adam and Eve, but God, in his mercy, did not condemn anyone to hell before they had the opportunity to hear the gospel of salvation.

Jesus descended to the dead after his physical death and preached to them. He said he would do that:

John 5:25-29: Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

And Saint Peter confirmed that it had been done:

1 Peter 4:6: For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
 

atpollard

Active Member
Prophets of the Old Testament did know Jesus in some form, especially King David. But every person who had ever died got to know him for sure right after the crucifixion. They were all in Sheol, the place of the dead, where every soul went until after Jesus died on the cross. That is because heaven had been closed to mankind due to the disobedience of Adam and Eve, but God, in his mercy, did not condemn anyone to hell before they had the opportunity to hear the gospel of salvation.

Jesus descended to the dead after his physical death and preached to them. He said he would do that:

John 5:25-29: Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

And Saint Peter confirmed that it had been done:

1 Peter 4:6: For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
How can we be sure whether 1 Peter 1:1-6 was intended to speak of those physically dead or as a metaphor for the spiritually dead. I read it over several times in different translations and it makes sense read either way.

1 Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because whoever suffers in the body is done with sin. 2 As a result, they do not live the rest of their earthly lives for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God. 3 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. 4 They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you. 5 But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.​

If "the dead" means those physically dead, then it is indeed claiming that everyone who ever lived, but died before Jesus died, heard the Gospel somehow (it is not specific in who preached it in this chapter or book). If this is correct, then v.5 says that Jesus stands ready to judge both those who are currently alive, and those who have died in the past, and v.6 makes an unclear statement about a judgement according to "body" and a life according to the "spirit" (which might just be saying that their bodies died (were judged) but their spirits may yet have a chance to live with God.

On the other hand, it could also refer to the spiritually dead vs the spiritually alive, particularly given the context set up by v.2 and v.3 (those who live lives of human evil might be described as "spiritually dead"). If this is the intended meaning, then v.5 says that Jesus stands ready to judge both those who live according to the spirit (the living) and those who live according to the evil desires of the flesh (the dead) ... presumably, the living would be judged for rewards like the parable of the talents, and the dead would be judged for their sins ... but again, this chapter and book is not clear on what judgement is being implied. Verse 6 would then be telling us that the Gospel is being preached both to those who will listen, repent and live, and those who will hear, mock and continue on as spiritually dead ... the acts of the sinful flesh judging the spiritually dead, and the Godly lives proclaiming the status of the spiritually living.

Personally, I like to entertain the possibility that it was intended to mean both, but I have no irrefutable evidence to suggest one interpretation over the other (let alone a deliberate double meaning). Do you have any particular insight into one meaning over the other?

It is a bold claim to say that all of the OT characters met Jesus in the grave.
I would be interested in seeing some additional scriptural support of that claim.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Jesus said no one had touched base with the Father directly accept Himself. The term describing Jesus's appearing to Adam and Eve, down through the many patriarchs and prophets until the gospels is "hierophany(s)".
 

Forever_Catholic

Active Member
How can we be sure whether 1 Peter 1:1-6 was intended to speak of those physically dead or as a metaphor for the spiritually dead. I read it over several times in different translations and it makes sense read either way.
Well, he mentions those living "earthly lives," those who would have heard the gospel while they were in the flesh, and he follows with "the gospel was preached also to those who are dead." To me, the contrast alone indicates that he means the physically dead here, not just the spiritually dead.

But there's also another verse of scripture on this, where Saint Paul talks about Jesus descending to the dead in Ephesians 4:9-10: "What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended into the lower regions of the earth? The one who descended is also the one who ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things." So if Jesus said the dead would hear his voice and Peter says the gospel was preached to the dead and Paul says that Jesus descended into the earth, it's looking pretty obvious.

If "the dead" means those physically dead, then it is indeed claiming that everyone who ever lived, but died before Jesus died, heard the Gospel somehow (it is not specific in who preached it in this chapter or book). If this is correct, then v.5 says that Jesus stands ready to judge both those who are currently alive, and those who have died in the past, and v.6 makes an unclear statement about a judgement according to "body" and a life according to the "spirit" (which might just be saying that their bodies died (were judged) but their spirits may yet have a chance to live with God.
Yes, everyone who died before Jesus did hear the Gospel, and they heard it they same way that those living on earth first heard it -- Jesus preached it to them himself, just as he said he would do in John 5. That unclear statement about the dead being judged according to men in the flesh, but living according to God in the spirit -- I've always understood it to emphasize that they no longer live in the flesh, but for now, purely in spirit as God is pure spirit; and that they, those who are saved, will live with God. Actually, I've never researched it beyond this understanding, but now that you point it out, it would probably be a good idea.

Jesus is ready to judge the living and the dead, but for now judges each person only after death in a particular judgement. Hebrews 9:27 - "... it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment." At the final judgment at the end of time is when he will judge both the living and the dead.

Personally, I like to entertain the possibility that it was intended to mean both, but I have no irrefutable evidence to suggest one interpretation over the other (let alone a deliberate double meaning). Do you have any particular insight into one meaning over the other?
Jesus restored the union between man and God through the sacrifice of his suffering and death on the Cross for our sake. He did it specifically to free us from spiritual death, which is the separation of the soul from God. This is the death that both God the Father and God the Son are most often referring to when they talk about death, such as when God warned Adam not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil in Genesis 2:17: "…For in what day soever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death.” I like the Douay-Rheims translation because "die the death" more clearly indicates that this is not physical death, but something worse. It's the same as in Romans 6:23, “The wages of sin is death.”

Those living in the body can be in a state of spiritual death, but as long as they're still in the body, salvation is still available to them. Those who die physically while in a state of spiritual death remain separated from God forever, in hell. Because God wants to save every soul, Jesus preached the gospel of salvation not only to those living on earth, but also to the immortal souls of the dead in Sheol. Afterwards, those of them who were saved went to heaven and those who were not saved went to hell. No one knows the specifics of how that worked. I would suppose that the sinful souls who repented and asked for Christ's mercy were saved. Maybe that's what Jesus meant by "Those who hear [my voice] will live."

By the way, this descending to the dead is expressed in two alternate ways in the Apostles's Creed. One says: He "was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended to the dead." An older version says he descended into hell. That's not the hell of the damned; it's not hell at all. It's an inaccurate and unnecessary translation of "Sheol".

It is a bold claim to say that all of the OT characters met Jesus in the grave.
I would be interested in seeing some additional scriptural support of that claim.
With heaven closed to mankind and eternal damnation on hold until after the Crucifixion, where else could they have met him.? Some people do believe that Enoch and Elijah were two exceptions. Some believe Moses was another. Others believe there were no exceptions, because the Bible does not say that any of them were taken to heaven; only that Enoch and Elijah were taken somewhere unspecified, and that Moses was present with Jesus at the transfiguration. We don't really know where they went, but evidently they were not taken body and soul to heaven because John 3:13 says "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

Here are a few verses illustrating that everyone went to Sheol; both the just and the unjust, the righteous and the wicked.

There were two main parts, which were separated by a chasm. One part was a place of punishment:

Psalm 9:17 - The wicked go down to the realm of the dead… To Sheol the wicked will depart.
Psalm 31:17 - Let the wicked be put to shame; let them go silently to Sheol.
Isaiah 5:14 - Therefore Sheol has enlarged its appetite and opened its mouth beyond measure, and the nobility of Jerusalem and her multitude will go down…

And a pleasant part -- not just comfortable, but "paradise" (Luke 24:43) Also called "the Bosom of Abraham" (See Luke 16:19-31)

Genesis 37:35 (Jacob mourning for Joseph after being told that he had been killed) - Though his sons and daughters tried to console him, he refused all consolation, saying, “No, I will go down mourning to my son in Sheol.”
Psalm 88:3-4 - Let my prayer come before you; incline your ear to my cry. For my soul is filled with troubles; my life draws near to Sheol.
Isaiah 38:10 (Hezekiah’s Hymn of Thanksgiving) - In the noontime of life I said, I must depart! To the gates of Sheol I have been consigned for the rest of my years.
 

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
Jesus said that his followers must know Him to know the father, however, this can't mean the Prophets in the OT; so what exactly does Jesus mean?
There is an logical explanation, imo. As a manifestation of the father, Jesus always existed. We are actually told this in the New Testament; this would mean that the prophets, in essence, did know Jesus, in some form.
In other words, unless Jesus is Deific, saying that He is Deific, this statement, and similar ones, don't make sense.

I am reminded again of Colossians 1:15, John 1:18 and Matthew 11:27.

Before Jesus lived as a man, God's friends knew him, but not as thoroughly as they would have as and after Jesus arrived. Now finally there was a human living who had a perfect reflection of the Father's personality.

"For 'who has come to know the mind of Jehovah, so that he may instruct him?' But we do have the mind of Christ." - 1 Corinthians 2:16; see also Isaiah 40:13
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Jesus said that his followers must know Him to know the father, however, this can't mean the Prophets in the OT; so what exactly does Jesus mean?
There is an logical explanation, imo. As a manifestation of the father, Jesus always existed. We are actually told this in the New Testament; this would mean that the prophets, in essence, did know Jesus, in some form.
In other words, unless Jesus is Deific, saying that He is Deific, this statement, and similar ones, don't make sense.

Please keep in mind those prophets lived before Jesus. Jesus' death opened up the way to heaven - John 3:13
No one who died before the death of Jesus could be considered as a saint or holy one.- Daniel 7:18
No one, No Hebrew prophets, No kings - including king David - Acts 2:34 - would have a heavenly resurrection.
Only baptized Christians are called to serve in heaven. They would be part of the first or earlier resurrection of those called to heaven - Rev. 20:6; 5 vs 9,10; 2:10
People like David, Daniel and other prophets will have a later or future resurrection back to restored healthy physical life on earth during Jesus' coming 1000-year governmental rulership over earth - Daniel 12:13. They can be ' princes ' on earth - Psalm 45:16; Isaiah 32:1. They will have the opportunity to live forever in perfect health on earth - Psalm 37 vs 11,29
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
I can tell you how I see it. In Isaiah, it says that G-d is the Savior. Since all these prophets and other followers believe in G-d and worship G-d, then they believe in the Savior. Here is a verse just to let people see it:

Isaiah 43:11 I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior.(ESV)

*Edited to add: The word "Lord" is in place of Yahweh/Jehovah according to scholars in this verse.
 
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