If you are a Hindu: How to worship and pray to Isvara without using Image/Idol?

[sayak83]

In Hinduism, just as one can pray to your chosen deity using through image/idol, you can also do so without using an image/idol if you find it difficult to mentally connect Isvara with an image (I can quote many things to support it, but I suspect nobody would seriously challenge this). Now practically, what recourse do Hindus, today, have to do this? Note, I am not talking about meditation, but praying and worshiping without using an image.

Shouldn't temples and places of worship in Hinduism have such facilities? Shoudn't there be well established methods of doing this? Why are they not there? Seems to be a serious oversight on our part.

Thoughts?

 

[Vinayaka]

I don't think there is a need, because nearly 100% of all Hindus are quite comfortable using images. I've never personally met one who isn't at least indifferent, although I suppose they wouldn't likely be showing up to the temples I go to.

 

[निताइ dasa]

Singing Kirtan of God's Names. No external image needed for that. This method has been developed for centuries in Vaishnav traditions.

 

[sayak83]

I don't think there is a need, because nearly 100% of all Hindus are quite comfortable using images. I've never personally met one who isn't at least indifferent, although I suppose they wouldn't likely be showing up to the temples I go to.

Because people who cannot connect have converted to Islam or Sikhism?

 

[sayak83]

Don't you think because we're in a material world, many people want some form of material object for devotion?

Bhagavad Gita 7.20 Those whose knowledge has been carried away by material desires surrender to the celestial gods. Following their own nature, they worship the devatās, practicing rituals meant to propitiate these celestial personalities.

Do you not find, that it is a natural evolution of misunderstanding?

History of Hinduism, Islam and Sikh religion show that plenty of people may prefer to connect without an image.

 

[Vinayaka]

Because people who cannot connect have converted to Islam or Sikhism?

I'm not sure, as I've had no experience with either. Here in Canada Islam with Hindus is a total non-factor, we're both losing out to the western non-culture. The only person I know who shifted over to the Gurdwara was for the food, and had naught to do with idols.

Perhaps its a problem in North India, I don't know.

Clearly if it is, we're not doing a very good job of explaining the purpose of an idol, or kids are succumbing to negative propaganda.

 

[sayak83]

Singing Kirtan of God's Names. No external image needed for that. This method has been developed for centuries in Vaishnav traditions.

I agree. One of the reasons I believe it has become popular. I believe there should be more ways to do this in Hindu temples and in special dates associated with Hindu festivals etc.

 

[sayak83]

I'm not sure, as I've had no experience with either. Here in Canada Islam with Hindus is a total non-factor, we're both losing out to the western non-culture. The only person know who shifted over to the Gurdwara was for the food, and had naught to do with idols.

Perhaps its a problem in North India, I don't know.

I am thinking historically...

 

[निताइ dasa]

I agree. One of the reasons I believe it has become popular. I believe there should be more ways to do this in Hindu temples and in special dates associated with Hindu festivals etc.

Our temples our built around the concept of Kirtan (because it is the Yuga Dharma). In Mayapur, Kirtan goes on for 24 hrs continuous. On special dates, we sing special bhajans associated with the days. It's a very complex tradition.

 

[Vinayaka]

I agree. One of the reasons I believe it has become popular. I believe there should be more ways to do this in Hindu temples and in special dates associated with Hindu festivals etc.

They can if they want to, by shutting their eyes. By the way, just for info, where are you, and what language is your mother tongue?

 

[Vinayaka]

I am thinking historically...

Over here in the west, there is a new revival of interest in all things Eastern. Almost the 60s all over again.

 

[sayak83]

Over here in the west, there is a new revival of interest in all things Eastern. Almost the 60s all over again.

I understand. What I am saying here is different. I am saying that in Hinduism there is equal acceptance of

1) Worship through Yagnya (fire)
2) Meditation (Yoga)
3) Worship through icons
4) Worship without icons.

Our places of worship should adequately reflect all four, and currently they do not.

 

[sayak83]

They can if they want to, by shutting their eyes. By the way, just for info, where are you, and what language is your mother tongue?

Bengali. Indian, currently in USA.

 

[sayak83]

Our temples our built around the concept of Kirtan (because it is the Yuga Dharma). In Mayapur, Kirtan goes on for 24 hrs continuous. On special dates, we sing special bhajans associated with the days. It's a very complex tradition.

Its not complex to me. I am from Bengal.

 

[Vinayaka]

I understand. What I am saying here is different. I am saying that in Hinduism there is equal acceptance of

1) Worship through Yagnya (fire)
2) Meditation (Yoga)
3) Worship through icons
4) Worship without icons.

Our places of worship should adequately reflect all four, and currently they do not.

In the temple I go to, there is a havan pit, and homas are conducted regularly, after puja, one can sit anywhere to meditate, there are icons, and a person doesn't need to focus on them. So in my view all 4 are there.

The last two may well be incompatible without having 2 separate prayer halls, which makes it functionally nigh impossible. Kind of like having a car with a driver, and without as diver simultaneously?

How do you figure a building to have all 4?

 

[निताइ dasa]

Its not complex to me. I am from Bengal.

On the contrary, there is a very deep philosophical and scriptural understanding that underpins Kirtan. Everything, from the order of progression, the realisations that should come, are all documented in Vaishnav scripture. All rules and regulations are there in order to support Kirtan. Even after my many years of practice,I'm still trying to understand the process. I can only speak for my tradition though, but Kirtan is its soul and life.

 

[sayak83]

On the contrary, there is a very deep philosophical and scriptural understanding that underpins Kirtan. Everything, from the order of progression, the realisations that should come, are all documented in Vaishnav scripture. All rules and regulations are there in order to support Kirtan. Even after my many years of practice,I'm still trying to understand the process. I can only speak for my tradition though, but Kirtan is its soul and life.

Oh ok. I was thinking of listening to a kirtan or having a kirtan.

 

[sayak83]

In the temple I go to, there is a havan pit, and homas are conducted regularly, after puja, one can sit anywhere to meditate, there are icons, and a person doesn't need to focus on them. So in my view all 4 are there.

The last two may well be incompatible without having 2 separate prayer halls, which makes it functionally nigh impossible. Kind of like having a car with a driver, and without as diver simultaneously?

How do you figure a building to have all 4?

Some collective figuring out is required. It would be a good idea if it could be done, yes?

 

[Vinayaka]

Some collective figuring out is required. It would be a good idea if it could be done, yes?

I'm quite familiar with a lot of temples in the west, with 40 years of experience, and having been to around 50 of them. There are a few general patterns to consider.

- Majority generally rules, so in consensus style temples, whichever linguistic/sect group has the majority gets to decide most of the stuff, as usually elected boards do the running. Most commonly the majority is those who prefer to have murthies.
- An exception to the above is when the founding group has the will to do it, and that founding group may be smaller. Then it works with the 'founding fathers' having the main say.
- Cost is always a factor. Many temples get scaled down from their original grand plans.
- Temples split, for many reasons, - geography in larger cities, sectarian differences, and more.
- Some individual groups originating in India build their own temples, like BAPS, or ISCKON, Arya Samaj
- Building temples is not easy, there are always many challenges to overcome, including things likd zoning bylaws, fundraising, drawing up constitutions, and more
- Very small groups or individuals have built some, but generally they remain small.
- Only in very large cities are there a multitude of temples reflecting all sects. Toronto, Texas, New York City area are like that.

So it's hard. But my advice is always the same ... if You want to build a temple to suit your own ideas, just go out and do it.

 

[Kirran]

In Hinduism, just as one can pray to your chosen deity using through image/idol, you can also do so without using an image/idol if you find it difficult to mentally connect Isvara with an image (I can quote many things to support it, but I suspect nobody would seriously challenge this). Now practically, what recourse do Hindus, today, have to do this? Note, I am not talking about meditation, but praying and worshiping without using an image.

Shouldn't temples and places of worship in Hinduism have such facilities? Shoudn't there be well established methods of doing this? Why are they not there? Seems to be a serious oversight on our part.

Thoughts?

What do you mean by facilities? What prevents you from worshipping God as formless in a temple where there's a murti?