If you could change the past, would you?

[Jumi]

I agree that this looks to be the case, but let's wonder about this for a moment. Is that really true? What does that mean, to be who you are? If we were changed from what we are now, how could we be anything other than ourselves? What is this concept of personal identity that we have? Do I stop being "me" because I somehow stayed in the Catholic church as a kid and never found contemporary Paganism, for example?

It would be a very different "me" in charge. Sure part of us is the same. Your "Catholic church kid" had the potential to be the you of today, but it also had the potential to stay in the mold you were cast in and many other possible selves.

 

[RedDragon94]

What about things other than you? Other people, whether it be humans, trees, or rivers? Does your own betterment override that of all else?

The thing about it is if I try to change someone else or something else besides me then to a certain extent I violate their freewill. You have to let people run their own show. It's not that my betterment is the only thing I care about, it's that when I change myself I make the world a little brighter. Everybody benefits.

 

[Godobeyer]

I can understand the point of this poll ? is poll question and options are logically match ?

 

[RedDragon94]

This is an interesting perspective, perhaps because it's much different than how I see contentment. I see contentment is acceptance of what is and what must be; an acceptance of the reality of fate, as it were. Desire can certainly still be present there. Philosophically, I'm a determinist, but this doesn't stop me from having desires. Nor does it stop reality from changing. Reality is constantly changing regardless of the presence of humans and/or their desires, isn't it? The rain still falls, the earth still turns, and animal bodies still exchange energy with their environments. All of that... is change.

Why not challenge the status quo? This is why I am against determinism, because it makes you accept whatever comes instead you playing a part in your direction of life. It is true that reality changes, but does it change to your liking? Nature follows patterns that may or may not have been placed there by a deity. I have also come to the conclusion that divinity may be nature, which is almost the direct opposite of everything I was taught as a child. The other conclusion is no God at all, so I don't know.

What is "less?" I'm not sure I understand what that is. Doesn't this idea of "less" begin with the expectation that one deserves something in particular? If one accepts what is, I'm not sure it's accurate to say the idea is being content with "less." One doesn't recognize there is a "less" and a "more." That value judgement evaporates, I would think.

Less is the bare necessities of what you ask for. Not everything is so spelled out. If one simply accepts what is they don't have the desire fully met. There's always something better out there that we want. That's kind of the way life is.

 

[Quintessence]

Past, Present, Future are all just a matter of perspective. If you think it would be immoral or just foolish to change the past because it would affect the present in ways we can't predict, then I ask is it wrong to change the present because it would affect the future in ways we can't predict?

The actions I take today will affect the future. I try to do my best and do the right thing. If somehow I had the ability to change the past I would try to do my best and do the right thing.

Very interesting. Sagacious words there, I think! Some feel there is no past or present at all. There is only right now. Quite the perspective to mull over... very much changes and challenges our normal assumptions about things.

The thing about it is if I try to change someone else or something else besides me then to a certain extent I violate their freewill. You have to let people run their own show. It's not that my betterment is the only thing I care about, it's that when I change myself I make the world a little brighter. Everybody benefits.

I confess I have never understood this notion of "violating" someone's "free will." I imagine that is at least partly due to that I don't believe in free will. But, even if I did, and as I mull over the logic of it, I don't see why this should be a consideration. All (in)actions have affects or consequences on others, and as such, it seems to me that it is wholly impossible to not "violate" someone's "free will" with everything we do (or don't do). Maybe you could explain to me your thoughts on how this works?

 

[RedDragon94]

All (in)actions have affects or consequences on others, and as such, it seems to me that it is wholly impossible to not "violate" someone's "free will" with everything we do (or don't do).

If you go out of your way to make someone do something that they wouldn't have done out of their own initiative that is violating their freewill. This includes making a person think they are doing out of their own initiative. The idea with magic (I guess, *shrugs*) is to wind up the scenario (like a clock) and let it play out naturally. You aren't doing anything malicious in the scenario but you are simply making your will known in the situation.

 

[Quintessence]

Why not challenge the status quo? This is why I am against determinism, because it makes you accept whatever comes instead you playing a part in your direction of life.

That's an interesting interpretation of determinism. As a determinist, I can't say that this characterization describes my perspective, and probably doesn't describe that of every other determinist either. I accept whatever comes and the part I play in its direction.

It is true that reality changes, but does it change to your liking?

Why should reality change to my liking? It would be extremely arrogant of me to expect all of relaity to conform to the wishes of one furless mammal residing on a single planet revolving around one star in a universe with an incomprehensible number of stars. Even scaling that down quite a bit, I'd still find it extremely arrogant of me. Such arrogance seems to be a hallmark of many members of my species, unfortunately. Anthropocentrism. Belief that the entire universe does, or somehow should, revolve around humans, or that human needs and whatnot are the most important. In fairness, if my religion had a concept of sin, anthropocentrism would be the cardinal sin, so... I'll admit that bias here.

I have also come to the conclusion that divinity may be nature, which is almost the direct opposite of everything I was taught as a child.

Me too. My culture is overwhelmingly dominated by classical monotheistic theologies, which stick this wedge between "gods" and "nature/universe." You get taught God (as in the one-god) is the only god there is, and it has these qualities, and there are no other valid god-concepts. You don't think to challenge that self-appointed authority to dictate what "god" is as a child. Well, I did, technically. Asked too many difficult questions of adults, and they didn't give adequate answers. Maybe you were like that too.

Less is the bare necessities of what you ask for. Not everything is so spelled out. If one simply accepts what is they don't have the desire fully met. There's always something better out there that we want. That's kind of the way life is.

That is a particular way of interpreting "the way life is," yes. There are other stories that can be told of it.

 

[Quintessence]

If you go out of your way to make someone do something that they wouldn't have done out of their own initiative that is violating their freewill. This includes making a person think they are doing out of their own initiative. The idea with magic (I guess, *shrugs*) is to wind up the scenario (like a clock) and let it play out naturally. You aren't doing anything malicious in the scenario but you are simply making your will known in the situation.

Hmm. How do we decide when someone is "going out of one's way?" What does that look like? How do we decide whether or not someone would have done something on their own? How can we know that?

I do understand what you're getting at with the coercion bit. What I don't understand is how we figure out those questions I just asked. It doesn't seem to me that we can answer them. Not without being some sort of omnipotent, omniscient, all-powerful something or other.

 

[RedDragon94]

Asked too many difficult questions of adults, and they didn't give adequate answers. Maybe you were like that too.

No I answered the difficult questions. The church I'm currently at with my parents didn't like me answering all the questions and decided to... What's the word? Destroy me, I guess.

How do we decide when someone is "going out of one's way?"

When you do a ritual and then try and force your will to play out. I read about magic and watch E A Koetting sometimes on Youtube, he's a Theistic Satanist who believes in black magick only. I say this because mentally (at least for now) I probably wouldn't be good at rituals.

It would be extremely arrogant of me to expect all of relaity to conform to the wishes of one furless mammal residing on a single planet revolving around one star in a universe with an incomprehensible number of stars.

Reading from LaVey, he says that each of us have a divine-human nature that makes us desire things that are within our sphere of influence. I'm not saying that you and I can control the weather but we can practice shameless "manipulation" (that is, lesser magic) and ritual (greater magic) to make life a little better for us. All that we can change is ourselves.

Me too. My culture is overwhelmingly dominated by classical monotheistic theologies, which stick this wedge between "gods" and "nature/universe." You get taught God (as in the one-god) is the only god there is, and it has these qualities, and there are no other valid god-concepts.

Which is why if there is a God, and it is nature, then some of us are supposed to be in communion with the divine and help others connect who struggle to.

I do understand what you're getting at with the coercion bit. What I don't understand is how we figure out those questions I just asked. It doesn't seem to me that we can answer them. Not without being some sort of omnipotent, omniscient, all-powerful something or other.

Well the fact that we're discussing it tells me we have at least a minute concept of it. Once again I come to the conclusion man is divine because man is a part of nature.

 

[Quintessence]

No I answered the difficult questions. The church I'm currently at with my parents didn't like me answering all the questions and decided to... What's the word? Destroy me, I guess.

Ouch. I think I must have jumped ship before any of that could happen. It helped being in an inter-religious household. I'd go "how come this parent gets to stay at home on Sunday... why can't I do that too? Church is boring!" Eventually I whined enough that they listened. Too bad they didn't stick me in UU, though. I'd have probably liked it there. The asking (and answering) the questions yourself is not a problem there, and outright encouraged. Oh well. The past is what it is, right?

When you do a ritual and then try and force your will to play out. I read about magic and watch E A Koetting sometimes on Youtube, he's a Theistic Satanist who believes in black magick only. I say this because mentally (at least for now) I probably wouldn't be good at rituals.

I'm not familiar... don't tend to watch a lot of YouTube videos either. I am aware of some of the standard magical ethics about "violating" free will, though. Never quite understood it, and still don't. I do understand why some would be uncomfortable with certain objectives in spells, though I feel that the underlying ethics of that is more complicated than this "violates free will" stuff. I think it has more to do with people just not liking it than some metaphysical explanation. And perhaps also, fear. People tend to be afraid of other people who have come into their own power and are comfortable using it as they see fit.

Reading from LaVey, he says that each of us have a divine-human nature that makes us desire things that are within our sphere of influence. I'm not saying that you and I can control the weather but we can practice shameless "manipulation" (that is, lesser magic) and ritual (greater magic) to make life a little better for us. All that we can change is ourselves.

Fair enough. I think I read chunks of LaVey's works may years ago. Don't remember much from it and it didn't resonate with me at the time. That idea of humans being divine though, I am on board with... mostly because I see all as gods, without exception. Even the ground you all walk on.

Well the fact that we're discussing it tells me we have at least a minute concept of it.

Yeah, that's probably true. Each teases out their own distinctions. My brain has trouble sorting things out under such a paradigm, I guess, especially since I recognize other-than-human persons and wouldn't limit this thing called "free will" only to human persons. It quickly becomes an insurmountable cognitive mess. Simply having an attitude of respectfulness towards all things works better for me.

 

[Willamena]

But that's a very temporary kind of contentment.

As opposed to....?

Contentment is contemporary.

 

[RedDragon94]

Ouch. I think I must have jumped ship before any of that could happen. It helped being in an inter-religious household. I'd go "how come this parent gets to stay at home on Sunday... why can't I do that too? Church is boring!" Eventually I whined enough that they listened. Too bad they didn't stick me in UU, though. I'd have probably liked it there. The asking (and answering) the questions yourself is not a problem there, and outright encouraged. Oh well. The past is what it is, right?

And man do I wish I could change it.

I'm not familiar... don't tend to watch a lot of YouTube videos either. I am aware of some of the standard magical ethics about "violating" free will, though. Never quite understood it, and still don't. I do understand why some would be uncomfortable with certain objectives in spells, though I feel that the underlying ethics of that is more complicated than this "violates free will" stuff. I think it has more to do with people just not liking it than some metaphysical explanation. And perhaps also, fear. People tend to be afraid of other people who have come into their own power and are comfortable using it as they see fit.

Well, now that I think about it those guys probably have no problem with violating another person's freewill. Bad example. Maybe I'm neo-pagan.

Fair enough. I think I read chunks of LaVey's works may years ago. Don't remember much from it and it didn't resonate with me at the time. That idea of humans being divine though, I am on board with... mostly because I see all as gods, without exception. Even the ground you all walk on.

He would say that only man is God because of that concept. Man can be the most vicious animal sometimes. *Shakes his head*

Yeah, that's probably true. Each teases out their own distinctions. My brain has trouble sorting things out under such a paradigm, I guess, especially since I recognize other-than-human persons and wouldn't limit this thing called "free will" only to human persons. It quickly becomes an insurmountable cognitive mess. Simply having an attitude of respectfulness towards all things works better for me.

I think that nature is divine but I'm apart of nature so that puts me on the same level as the divine. We just have to tap into our true nature.