If you don't believe in out of body experiences.Can you say why?

[Twilight Hue]

If you don't believe in out of body experiences.Can you say why?

Because life cannot be sustainable without your body. It's pretty straightforward.

The experience is generated in your brain.

 

[George-ananda]

Because life cannot be sustainable without your body. It's pretty straightforward.

The experience is generated in your brain.

How do you dismiss the belief that we have an astral body component that is normally interpenetrating the physical body but can temporarily leave the physical body leaving the physical body unconscious.

Here is a classic case suggesting such ability.

One of the first researchers to perform laboratorial experiments on the OBE was psychologist Dr. Charles Theodore Tart (1937 - ). In 1966, he invited a young projector to participate in a series of experiments in the sleep laboratory of the University of California - Davis. The historical projectiological experiments took four nights in which the projector - "Miss Z" - was to lay down and try to exit the physical body, while connected to a series of devices that measured her physiological conditions. The objective of the experiments was the identification of a quasi-randomly generated five-digit number, approximately 1.5 meters above her head (impossible to be physically observed).

From Monday to Wednesday, the projector reported having seen the clock while floating out of body. At the times informed by her, the devices demonstrated unusual brain-wave patterns. An absence of rapid-eye movements (REM) was also observed. On Wednesday night, Miss Z identified the target number: 25132. The brain-wave pattern during conscious projection was different from the patterns during waking state, sleep and other altered states of consciousness (an expression proposed by Tart himself).

 

[Koldo]

How do you dismiss the belief that we have an astral body component that is normally interpenetrating the physical body but can temporarily leave the physical body leaving the physical body unconscious.

Here is a classic case suggesting such ability.

One of the first researchers to perform laboratorial experiments on the OBE was psychologist Dr. Charles Theodore Tart (1937 - ). In 1966, he invited a young projector to participate in a series of experiments in the sleep laboratory of the University of California - Davis. The historical projectiological experiments took four nights in which the projector - "Miss Z" - was to lay down and try to exit the physical body, while connected to a series of devices that measured her physiological conditions. The objective of the experiments was the identification of a quasi-randomly generated five-digit number, approximately 1.5 meters above her head (impossible to be physically observed).

From Monday to Wednesday, the projector reported having seen the clock while floating out of body. At the times informed by her, the devices demonstrated unusual brain-wave patterns. An absence of rapid-eye movements (REM) was also observed. On Wednesday night, Miss Z identified the target number: 25132. The brain-wave pattern during conscious projection was different from the patterns during waking state, sleep and other altered states of consciousness (an expression proposed by Tart himself).

"The psychologist James Alcock criticized the experiment for inadequate controls and questioned why the subject was not visually monitored by a video camera.[103] Martin Gardner has written the experiment was not evidence for an OBE and suggested that whilst Tart was "snoring behind the window, Miss Z simply stood up in bed, without detaching the electrodes, and peeked."[104] Susan Blackmore wrote "If Miss Z had tried to climb up, the brain-wave record would have showed a pattern of interference. And that was exactly what it did show."

-Out-of-body experience - Wikipedia

 

[Twilight Hue]

How do you dismiss the belief that we have an astral body component that is normally interpenetrating the physical body but can temporarily leave the physical body leaving the physical body unconscious.

Here is a classic case suggesting such ability.

One of the first researchers to perform laboratorial experiments on the OBE was psychologist Dr. Charles Theodore Tart (1937 - ). In 1966, he invited a young projector to participate in a series of experiments in the sleep laboratory of the University of California - Davis. The historical projectiological experiments took four nights in which the projector - "Miss Z" - was to lay down and try to exit the physical body, while connected to a series of devices that measured her physiological conditions. The objective of the experiments was the identification of a quasi-randomly generated five-digit number, approximately 1.5 meters above her head (impossible to be physically observed).

From Monday to Wednesday, the projector reported having seen the clock while floating out of body. At the times informed by her, the devices demonstrated unusual brain-wave patterns. An absence of rapid-eye movements (REM) was also observed. On Wednesday night, Miss Z identified the target number: 25132. The brain-wave pattern during conscious projection was different from the patterns during waking state, sleep and other altered states of consciousness (an expression proposed by Tart himself).

My reasons have to do with the brain and living matter and how it works.

Unless there is something that indicates a component that enables any type of obe would take extensive testing not limited to one or two people. I would be impressed if the study has been published and peer reviewed.

 

[George-ananda]

"The psychologist James Alcock criticized the experiment for inadequate controls and questioned why the subject was not visually monitored by a video camera.[103] Martin Gardner has written the experiment was not evidence for an OBE and suggested that whilst Tart was "snoring behind the window, Miss Z simply stood up in bed, without detaching the electrodes, and peeked."[104] Susan Blackmore wrote "If Miss Z had tried to climb up, the brain-wave record would have showed a pattern of interference. And that was exactly what it did show."

-Out-of-body experience - Wikipedia

Yes, I understand the objections as a determined materialist must fight at all costs to dismiss this case. I believe I have heard Dr. Tart respond to these accusations with things like she would had to have removed the electrodes and that would have shown on the monitor.

But anyway, if the whole thing rested on just this one event, then we have a controversy. However, there's more as in this tip of the iceberg article.

No doubt the materialists have no choice but to deny these things ever occurred as they appeared to have occurred and I am sure they have done that.

In the end we each have to ask ourselves who is being most professional and honest with the evidence. I know we fall on opposite sides of that coin.

 

[Koldo]

Yes, I understand the objections as a determined materialist must fight at all costs to dismiss this case. I believe I have heard Dr. Tart respond to these accusations with things like she would had to have removed the electrodes and that would have shown on the monitor.

But anyway, if the whole thing rested on just this one event, then we have a controversy. However, there's more as in this tip of the iceberg article.

No doubt the materialists have no choice but to deny these things ever occurred as they appeared to have occurred and I am sure they have done that.

In the end we each have to ask ourselves who is being most professional and honest with the evidence. I know we fall on opposite sides of that coin.

If you add weak evidence with weak evidence it doesn't suddenly becomes strong evidence all by itself. We have gone over this before.
If you want to discuss any particular event, feel free to quote it.

 

[George-ananda]

My reasons have to do with the brain and living matter and how it works.

Unless there is something that indicates a component that enables any type of obe would take extensive testing not limited to one or two people. I would be impressed if the study has been published and peer reviewed.

The theory is that we have interpenetrating astral bodies than can separate from the physical and permanently at time of physical death.

Now this is posited to be outside the three-dimensional planes of our physical senses and instruments and cannot be directly studied at this time. However veridical oobe and nde where the experiencer reports knowledge of verifiable things they could not have known normally is one piece of suggestive evidence for a component outside of the materialist framework.

 

[George-ananda]

If you add weak evidence with weak evidence it doesn't suddenly becomes strong evidence all by itself. We have gone over this before.
If you want to discuss any particular event, feel free to quote it.

I don't consider any of the evidence presented by these professors to be weak.

 

[Koldo]

I don't consider any of the evidence presented by these professors to be weak.

If that's not weak, what would you consider to be weak evidence?
How do you distinguish between weak and strong evidence?

 

[George-ananda]

If that's not weak, what would you consider to be weak evidence?
How do you distinguish between weak and strong evidence?

Weak evidence comes from weak sources for one.

How do you distinguish weak from strong?

I have come to believe that with strong materialists anything they don’t like is considered worthy of contempt actually. They lead with their emotions and then deny that.

 

[Koldo]

Weak evidence comes from weak sources for one.

As in where the study was published?
What do you consider good sources and why?

How do you distinguish weak from strong?

I have come to believe that with strong materialists anything they don’t like is considered worthy of contempt actually. They lead with their emotions and then deny that.

Reputation, peer review, replicability, and proper study design for starters.

 

[Twilight Hue]

The theory is that we have interpenetrating astral bodies than can separate from the physical and permanently at time of physical death.

Now this is posited to be outside the three-dimensional planes of our physical senses and instruments and cannot be directly studied at this time. However veridical oobe and nde where the experiencer reports knowledge of verifiable things they could not have known normally is one piece of suggestive evidence for a component outside of the materialist framework.

If it cant be studied, then how you'd you verify and confirm if it's the case?

I would also like to know the controls used in the study as well. If any.

 

[George-ananda]

If it cant be studied, then how you'd you verify and confirm if it's the case?

The super-physical cannot be verified by the physical (almost by definition).

The details known about these realms comes from those claiming clairvoyant insight using extra-sensory perception.

Science cannot confirm or deny this, but I consider what is claimed in my 'all things considered' judgment.

I would also like to know the controls used in the study as well. If any.

Much evidence comes from anecdotal experiences not in controlled settings. For the controls in the experiments, you would need to consult the literature for that specific experiment.

Sure, you can go ahead and explain this all away as bad memory, lying/cheating, improperly conducted experiments, lucky guessing, etcetera but it's up to each of us to decide if that is reasonable after enough claims.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

The super-physical cannot be verified by the physical (almost by definition).

The details known about these realms comes from those claiming clairvoyant insight using extra-sensory perception.

Science cannot confirm or deny this, but I consider what is claimed in my 'all things considered' judgment.

Much evidence comes from anecdotal experiences not in controlled settings. For the controls in the experiments, you would need to consult the literature for that specific experiment.

Sure, you can go ahead and explain this all away as bad memory, lying/cheating, improperly conducted experiments, lucky guessing, etcetera but it's up to each of us to decide if that is reasonable after enough claims.

I wanted to tell you that I like your posts on this topic and on other paranormal topics, George-ananda. FWIW, I consider you an ally when discussing the paranormal in this sub-forum and in the other sub-forums on RF. I truly appreciate your support and insight.

 

[George-ananda]

I wanted to tell you that I like your posts on this topic and on other paranormal topics, George-ananda. FWIW, I consider you an ally when discussing the paranormal in this sub-forum and in the other sub-forums on RF. I truly appreciate your support and insight.

Well that makes me feel good. I felt for awhile now that the bulk of posters here were more anti-paranormal. Maybe we can add a little to making things more balanced.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Well that makes me feel good. I felt for awhile now that the bulk of posters here were more anti-paranormal. Maybe we can add a little to making things more balanced.

To be honest, discussing my paranormal experiences on RF has been relatively positive, in spite of a few skeptical naysayers. In fact, my experiences have been more accepted on this site than in the paranormal groups I used to be in on Facebook. And RF is the first forum where I've ever talked about my unique abilities and connection with the spirit realm. I've never felt comfortable enough online to talk about my unique gifts as much as I have here. I remember how I felt when I first saw this particular sub-forum shortly after I joined. At first I was surprised, then I was excited, but my excitement turned quickly to reluctance after I skimmed through some of the threads. I decided to test the waters to see how I would be received after I shared some of my paranormal experiences. Overall, it's been a positive experience for me. I've honestly enjoyed posting in this sub-forum and being an active member on RF.

 

[George-ananda]

To be honest, discussing my paranormal experiences on RF has been relatively positive, in spite of a few skeptical naysayers. In fact, my experiences have been more accepted on this site than in the paranormal groups I used to be in on Facebook. And RF is the first forum where I've ever talked about my unique abilities and connection with the spirit realm. I've never felt comfortable enough online to talk about my unique gifts as much as I have here. I remember how I felt when I first saw this particular sub-forum shortly after I joined. At first I was surprised, then I was excited, but my excitement turned quickly to reluctance after I skimmed through some of the threads. I decided to test the waters to see how I would be received after I shared some of my paranormal experiences. Overall, it's been a positive experience for me. I've honestly enjoyed posting in this sub-forum and being an active member on RF.

I think why you have had such a positive experience was your move to make it perfectly clearly it was your thread and there was no debating.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I think why you have had such a positive experience was your move to make it perfectly clearly it was your thread and there was no debating.

Good point, but I've also participated in threads outside of this sub-forum and my experiences weren't that bad.

 

[syo]

If you don't believe in out of body experiences.Can you say why?

I don't know what it is, and I don't know if it's real or not.