I'm not baptized. Am i a Christian?

[sojourner]

I think sprinkling is more like anointing. Baptism is like bathing.

The church, by and large, would disagree with you. Anointing is done with chrism, not water.

 

[savagewind]

I thought you just said that "no one really believes poured water is baptism?"

Nobody believes poured water is dunking which is the real meaning of baptism. If you believe sprinkling is dunking then that is your problem for solving I think.

 

[savagewind]

The church, by and large, would disagree with you. Anointing is done with chrism, not water.

OK. Please learn to read BEFORE debate. I said "like".

 

[sojourner]

Nobody believes poured water is dunking which is the real meaning of baptism. If you believe sprinkling is dunking then that is your problem for solving I think.

Baptism means "immersing." One can be 'immersed" without being "dunked." I bathe every day by immersing myself in the shower.

 

[sojourner]

OK. Please learn to read BEFORE debate. I said "like".

Oh, I get the "like." Thing is, it's not "like" anointing if it doesn't use chrism.

 

[savagewind]

Baptism means "immersing." One can be 'immersed" without being "dunked." I bathe every day by immersing myself in the shower.

And you get wet all over. Try again.

 

[savagewind]

Oh, I get the "like." Thing is, it's not "like" anointing if it doesn't use chrism.

But it is. A little oil, a little water. Similar.

 

[sojourner]

And you get wet all over. Try again.

What's your point? That something has to be "exact" in order for God's grace to work? Or is it the intent and the heart that are important to the process? I take a shower and immerse myself in the water. In baptism, one is immersed in the sprinkling. Since it's not the water that's efficacious, the "all over" part doesn't really matter. In fact, the ancient Christians specified "living" (moving) water for baptism. Most evangelical baptistries don't have moving water. And that seems to be OK. But even the ancients said that if living water was not available, "other water" was fine. "Other water" would include sprinkling (which BTW, is closer to "living" water [since it is in motion] than is the typical baptistry water). My point is that the method doesn't matter.

 

[sojourner]

But it is. A little oil, a little water. Similar.

Water is water. Oil is oil. And the intent is completely different. An anointing is a blessing. Baptism is a cleansing.

 

[savagewind]

What's your point? That something has to be "exact" in order for God's grace to work? Or is it the intent and the heart that are important to the process? I take a shower and immerse myself in the water. In baptism, one is immersed in the sprinkling. Since it's not the water that's efficacious, the "all over" part doesn't really matter. In fact, the ancient Christians specified "living" (moving) water for baptism. Most evangelical baptistries don't have moving water. And that seems to be OK. But even the ancients said that if living water was not available, "other water" was fine. "Other water" would include sprinkling (which BTW, is closer to "living" water [since it is in motion] than is the typical baptistry water). My point is that the method doesn't matter.

Ya, but a person is not "immersed in the sprinkling". A small part of the body gets wet with sprinkling. Like a small part of the body gets oily with anointing. That is not my opinion. It is fact.

A baby usually is sprinkled. The baby has no choice.

Baptism is a choice to die to sin so that a person can live to righteousness. A person sprinkled can also live to righteousness. A person unbaptized and unsprinkled can also live to righteousness. OK?

 

[savagewind]

Water is water. Oil is oil. And the intent is completely different. An anointing is a blessing. Baptism is a cleansing.

Ok, now you are trying me. Do many Christians believe in Christian superiority? Are kings superior? Do they get to be rulers by an anointing? Please think! Thank you.

Christian baptism means dying and a washing away of sins. A sprinkling of a little water kills a person how?

 

[savagewind]

A person can die by drowning and many people have. Revelation 20:13 How many people have died by a spinkling of water?

 

[sojourner]

Ya, but a person is not "immersed in the sprinkling". A small part of the body gets wet with sprinkling. Like a small part of the body gets oily with anointing. That is not my opinion. It is fact.

Sure they are! If not actually, then spiritually (which is the whole point).

Do many Christians believe in Christian superiority?

I don't know; some do. I certainly don't.

Are kings superior? Do they get to be rulers by an anointing?

What do kings have to do with this??? Take your own advice and think! We're talking about Christians, not kings.

Christian baptism means dying and a washing away of sins. A sprinkling of a little water kills a person how?

It's a spiritual death, not an actual death. The means doesn't matter. The intent matters.

 

[savagewind]

Sure they are! If not actually, then spiritually (which is the whole point).

People for Christ get baptized because he did. How was he baptized?

I don't know; some do. I certainly don't.

Really? must I believe sprinkling is the same as immersion? Am I wrong and you are right that immersion and sprinkling are the same things?

What do kings have to do with this??? Take your own advice and think! We're talking about Christians, not kings.

No we were talking about an anointing. You said sprinkling is not like anointing.

It's a spiritual death, not an actual death. The means doesn't matter. The intent matters.

IF organizations which sprinkle babies immersed adults then people would ask why the difference and church elders would have no answer. That would be bad. So they sprinkle babies AND adults. Can a baby intend to do anything at all?

 

[sojourner]

People for Christ get baptized because he did. How was he baptized?

With water. In a river. Does it really matter? No.

Really? must I believe sprinkling is the same as immersion?

No, but you should respect that other people do.

Am I wrong and you are right that immersion and sprinkling are the same things?

They're both valid baptism. In that sense, they're the same thing.

No we were talking about an anointing. You said sprinkling is not like anointing.

It's not. Sprinkling is baptism. Anointing isn't.

IF organizations which sprinkle babies immersed adults then people would ask why the difference and church elders would have no answer.

That's not true. I've been in churches where both are done. I've done both. There's absolutely no problem.

Can a baby intend to do anything at all?

Its parents and fellow churchgoers can.

 

[savagewind]

No, but you should respect that other people do.

Then you should respect that other people don't.

Its parents and fellow churchgoers can.

Like control?

 

[sojourner]

Then you should respect that other people don't.

I do -- I just don't respect the undue judgment placed upon me by those who don't.

Like control?

No, like making decisions for their kids that kids aren't able to make for themselves. Can infants/toddlers decide for themselves what they will eat, where they will sleep, when they will nap, who they will play with, what they will wear? Is that "control?" Why is spiritual nourishment any different? Answer: It's not.

 

[savagewind]

I do -- I just don't respect the undue judgment placed upon me by those who don't.

How am I judging you? I disagree with you.

No, like making decisions for their kids that kids aren't able to make for themselves. Can infants/toddlers decide for themselves what they will eat, where they will sleep, when they will nap, who they will play with, what they will wear? Is that "control?" Why is spiritual nourishment any different? Answer: It's not.

Are you calling baptism spiritual nourishment?

 

[sojourner]

How am I judging you? I disagree with you.

I didn't say you did. Do you have a guilty conscience?

Are you calling baptism spiritual nourishment?

Of course! Any sacrament is spiritual nourishment.

 

[savagewind]

I didn't say you did. Do you have a guilty conscience?

OK

Of course! Any sacrament is spiritual nourishment.

It happens once.