I'm sick of this forum.

[Axe Elf]

I doubt you want to open that can of worms, because it means Hitler was predestined by god to be so vicious and cruel that we came up with the word genocide to describe the amount of people he killed.

Well of course that's what it means; but I don't see it as "a can of worms"--I see it as the nature of reality.

Italy was not the best it could be before Mussolini took over, and then not suddenly the best when Mussolini took over, and the best yet after the decline of Mussolini's Fascism.

Pre-polio wasn't the best we could have, because if it was the best we wouldn't have had polio. There is this idea that goes we have to work with what we have. That doesn't imply nor should it suggest we have the best possible scenario/situation. It's what we have. And as far as medical treatments are concerned, we are still years and years and decades away from having "the best," if we can even ever perfect our methods and treatments for healing people.

The argument is not that every aspect of reality is as good as it can possibly be; some things in isolation are clearly NOT as good as they can possibly be. The argument is that the universe as a whole is the best of all possible universes. That's a universe that includes Italy, both before and after Mussolini, and human beings, both before and after polio. The best of all possible universes includes the state of medicine as it was 500 years ago, as it is today, and as it will be 1000 years in the future. The best of all possible universes contains the best possible state of affairs at any given moment, even though the best possible state of affairs necessarily changes over time.

God has nothing to do with it. Morality is something that even atheists concern themselves about. It's a far cry to believe it's somehow exclusive to theists and god.

We weren't talking about morality, we were talking about the problem of evil--and God has EVERYTHING to do with it. The problem of evil is why a God Who is all-powerful and all-good would allow evil to exist in the world. If God does not exist, then the problem disappears.

That isn't using Occam's Razor, but making an appeal to popularity, something that serves only to prove how popular something is.

I'm not trying to prove how popular God is; I'm observing that He is popular (to wit, that 84% of all people on Earth believe in God), and then looking for the simplest explanation (per Occam) to account for the observed fact. In this case, the simplest explanation is that God exists, but it is not necessarily the correct explanation, as Occam's Razor is a guideline and not an ironclad guarantee of accuracy.

I'm glad software and hardware designers do not have that attitude, because if they did we wouldn't not have patches and updates to improve such things once they are released. Something may be "the best" we have now, but there is always room for improvement.

But that improvement still happens in the same universe, so the universe is not made any better simply because new aspects of it have been revealed to us--it's still the same universe it has always been, the passage of time just facilitates revealing the process of becoming what it was always created to be.

 

[Axe Elf]

I didn't say that your argument was fallacious. I said that your position regarding this being the best of all possible worlds appeared to be self-evidently incorrect. That is, your argument is valid, but not sound. Yes, we would be living in the best of all possible worlds if an omnisicient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent god exists. I'm with you so far.

Ok, I thought you were saying that the argument itself was self-evidently incorrect, when really you just believe that the conclusion is self-evidently incorrect. That is essentially a religious belief on your part--obviously not one you can demonstrate by evidence or reason--and if it cannot even be demonstrated to be incorrect by evidence or reason, then it certainly cannot be self-evidently incorrect.

Your argument depends on it being the case that no change to the world can makes it better, and you're making it in an age when man has already made countless changes that have made life longer, healthier, safer, easier, and more interesting. What we are doing right now - communicating by computer from though possibly thousands of miles apart - is an obvious example.

But you're acting like it's a different universe after the internet (or any other advance) than it was before the internet--and it's not. It's still the same old universe we have always had--a universe that has, always has had, and always will have the internet at this point in history. Nothing has been made better, just as nothing about the universe has been made any better for the comparative lack of pollution that the Earth enjoyed before the industrial age.

That's a religious belief - one I don't share - and one irrelevant to the matter of whether ours is or has ever been the best of all possible worlds. Are you still arguing that our world is and always has been that? If so, it's because you have painted yourself into a corner by attempting to defend an indefensible position that is self-evidently incorrect.

Or, because I have successfully defended a defensible position that is in no way self-evidently incorrect.

modus tollens - the rule of logic stating that if a conditional statement (“if p then q ”) is accepted, and the consequent does not hold ( not-q ), then the negation of the antecedent ( not-p ) can be inferred.

The problem you have, though, is a total inability to demonstrate by evidence or reason that the consequent does not hold--you have only your religious belief that this universe could be better than it is, and your childlike suggestions of making all animals herbivores, bringing all of our loved ones back to life, and never letting anyone die of malnutrition certainly don't do anything to make your case, as they would all clearly lead to a universe that fails rather quickly.

That's what faith can do. Come by your positions based on reason applied to evidence, and they will likely be be correct, meaning reality will support them. Believe something because it is comfortable or appealing to believe it, and you will likely have guessed incorrectly, which will be followed by reality contradicting you. You began with axioms and a theorem derived from them that reality (relevant evidence) contradicts. You're in the same boat as the anti-evolution creationists.

Yes, all facts are based in faith, but contrary to the anti-evolution creationists, whose conclusions can be refuted by observations of reality, my theorem cannot. It can only be refuted by another statement of faith--that this is NOT the best of all possible universes. Parenthetically, it can also be refuted by showing that an omni-God does not exist, or at least was not the creator of the universe, but at least you have enough sense not to approach it from THAT angle. It's just that the angle you are taking is no more demonstrable; it's still just a baseless denial of my conclusion.

@Axe Elf has proclaimed the opposite. Which of you is to be believed? These kinds of religious proclamations are difficult to discern from guesses.

That's where us prophets come in handy, to sort "guesses" from legitimate interpretations of the divine will and purpose of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's where us prophets come in handy, to sort "guesses" from legitimate interpretations of the divine will and purpose of God.

True, and they are more than just handy.

 

[Trailblazer]

And that is exactly the case, as the Bible verses I posted clearly state.

That's where original sin comes in; people can't stand to think that they're not in control; they want to be their own gods.

So you are saying we are all just God’s robots and we make no choices of our own? If we make choices that does not mean we are in control. Control is an illusion. God can allow our choices to become actions or disallow them. God is in control because God calls the final shots.

I do not believe in the doctrine of original sin. I am a Baha’i. 30: ADAM AND EVE

There's someone else making this same error in another discussion I'm having somewhere on these forums right now.
The fact that God knows what will happen does in fact limit the number of possible outcomes to one, thus removing any basis for calling one's choice "free." Choosing to stay in a locked room when you couldn't leave if you chose to is not a free choice.

But the room is not locked, because God has the key and God can open the room whenever He wants to since God is omnipotent.

No, it is not free in the sense that we cannot override God’s will, since we can only do what has been ordained by God.

However, knowledge of what things will happen should never be confused with causing things to happen. Only the being that CREATED all of spacetime can be said to have caused its composition--oh yeah, that was God too. So God does not cause things to happen simply because God knows they will happen--that would be silly--but God does cause things to happen because He created them to happen in the first place (which also helps explain how He knows what will happen).

In a sense this is congruent with what I believe as a Baha’i because all inaction or the movement of man depends upon the assistance of God:

“Now another question arises. Man is absolutely helpless and dependent, since might and power belong especially to God. Both exaltation and humiliation depend upon the good pleasure and the will of the Most High.

It is said in the New Testament that God is like a potter who makes “one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour.” 1 Now the dishonored vessel has no right to find fault with the potter saying, “Why did you not make me a precious cup, which is passed from hand to hand?” The meaning of this verse is that the states of beings are different. That which is in the lowest state of existence, like the mineral, has no right to complain, saying, “O God, why have You not given me the vegetable perfections?” In the same way, the plant has no right to complain that it has been deprived of the perfections of the animal world. Also it is not befitting for the animal to complain of the want of the human perfections. No, all these things are perfect in their own degree, and they must strive after the perfections of their own degree. The inferior beings, as we have said, have neither the right to, nor the fitness for, the states of the superior perfections. No, their progress must be in their own state.

Also the inaction or the movement of man depend upon the assistance of God. If he is not aided, he is not able to do either good or evil. But when the help of existence comes from the Generous Lord, he is able to do both good and evil; but if the help is cut off, he remains absolutely helpless. This is why in the Holy Books they speak of the help and assistance of God. So this condition is like that of a ship which is moved by the power of the wind or steam; if this power ceases, the ship cannot move at all. Nevertheless, the rudder of the ship turns it to either side, and the power of the steam moves it in the desired direction. If it is directed to the east, it goes to the east; or if it is directed to the west, it goes to the west. This motion does not come from the ship; no, it comes from the wind or the steam.

In the same way, in all the action or inaction of man, he receives power from the help of God; but the choice of good or evil belongs to the man himself. So if a king should appoint someone to be the governor of a city, and should grant him the power of authority, and should show him the paths of justice and injustice according to the laws—if then this governor should commit injustice, although he should act by the authority and power of the king, the latter would be absolved from injustice. But if he should act with justice, he would do it also through the authority of the king, who would be pleased and satisfied.

That is to say, though the choice of good and evil belongs to man, under all circumstances he is dependent upon the sustaining help of life, which comes from the Omnipotent. The Kingdom of God is very great, and all are captives in the grasp of His Power. The servant cannot do anything by his own will; God is powerful, omnipotent, and the Helper of all beings.”
Some Answered Questions, pp. 248-250

This whole passage talks about time as if it is fluid and malleable until after we pass a moment, and only then does the moment become fixed and unalterable. God has a plan in mind, but if some human prays to Him with a better idea, God might grant the prayer and "change" the future. But your final statement, in accordance with common sense, denies this illusion:

I did not say that God changed it because someone prays to God with a better idea. God changes an impending decree only at His behest. Note that it says “The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.” It does not say that it will succeed in averting an impending decree; only that it can (if God wills).

Absolutely correct. For those moments already passed, we understand that they are fixed in time like a fly trapped in amber--but our unwillingness to feel that way about moments yet to come is based only in our inability to examine future moments now. For God, everything that happens in the future, as well as in the past, is eternally fixed in its moment like those flies trapped in amber--all the moments that have already been experienced by man, and all the moments that are yet to be experienced by man, always exist, have always existed, and will always exist, exactly as He created them.

You said: “For God, everything that happens in the future, as well as in the past, is eternally fixed in its moment like those flies trapped in amber-“ That is true from where God is located because everything that happens in the material world is already written on the tablet of fate. Time as we know it as it is measured by the sun does not exist in the spiritual world and time does not exist for God. God knows what He will alter, so if God decides to alter a fate that was impending in the material world, it was only impending because it was not irrevocable (fixed) by God. It was altered because of what a human decided to do, but only because it was God’s will to alter it.

“God witnesseth that there is no God but Him, the Gracious, the Best-Beloved. All grace and bounty are His. To whomsoever He will He giveth whatsoever is His wish. He, verily, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 73

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 209

“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest. He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 284

 

[Axe Elf]

So you are saying we are all just God’s robots and we make no choices of our own?

That is what I am reflecting from the scriptures I cited, yes.

I see that you are having two difficulties with this concept; one, that the concept of the future being just as fixed as the past seems to be anathema to you. You keep talking about destinies being changed, choices being allowed or disallowed, and so on. I believe the Bible is telling us that all of spacetime--every minute and every millimeter--was created in the act of creation. It exists eternally as a fixed, unchanging creation; apparent "change" being only a change in perspective, a manifestation of different points of view in space and time.

There is no interplay between us making a decision, then God deciding whether or not to allow it, etc. Everything we do, every decision we make, was created by God in the act of creating spacetime--the universe. There's no need to tweak that which was created; it's already the best of all possible universes.

The second difficulty you are having, I can't really talk about because of the rules of this site. So here we are.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then maybe you should review them, because they most certainly deny your free will. Shall we review a few together?

A man's mind plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps and makes them sure. --Proverbs 16:9

Correct. Like the passage I quoted in my previous post, God directs our steps, but God does not choose our steps.

The lot is cast into the lap, but the decision is wholly of the Lord [even the events that seem accidental are really ordered by Him]. --Proverbs 16:33
Many plans are in a man's mind, but it is the Lord's purpose for him that will stand. --Proverbs 19:21
Man's steps are ordered by the Lord. How then can a man understand his way? --Proverbs 20:24
Ah, the wisdom of Solomon. Does it sound to you like what a man plans and chooses is what will happen, or does it sound more like what the Lord has created will stand instead? (I'm going to assume you give the correct answer here and move on.)

Man plans and chooses what he wants to happen but it only happens if it is in accordance with God’s will. The final decision is wholly of the Lord.

O Lord [pleads Jeremiah in the name of the people], I know that [the determination of] the way of a man is not in himself; it is not in man [even in a strong man or in a man at his best] to direct his [own] steps. --Jeremiah 10:23

A prophet weighs in with a similar account.

We are assured and know that [God being a partner in their labor] all things work together and are [fitting into a plan] for good to and for those who love God and are called according to [His] design and purpose. For those whom He foreknew [of whom He was aware and loved beforehand], He also destined from the beginning [foreordaining them] to be molded into the image of His Son [and share inwardly His likeness], that He might become the firstborn among many brethren. And those whom He thus foreordained, He also called; and those whom He called, He also justified (acquitted, made righteous, putting them into right standing with Himself). And those whom He justified, He also glorified [raising them to a heavenly dignity and condition or state of being]. --Romans 8:28-30

Even as [in His love] He chose us [actually picked us out for Himself as His own] in Christ before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy (consecrated and set apart for Him) and blameless in His sight, even above reproach, before Him in love. For He foreordained us (destined us, planned in love for us) to be adopted (revealed) as His own children through Jesus Christ, in accordance with the purpose of His will [because it pleased Him and was His kind intent] --Ephesians 1:4-5

[He planned] for the maturity of the times and the climax of the ages to unify all things and head them up and consummate them in Christ, [both] things in heaven and things on the earth. In Him we also were made [God's] heritage (portion) and we obtained an inheritance; for we had been foreordained (chosen and appointed beforehand) in accordance with His purpose, Who works out everything in agreement with the counsel and design of His [own] will, --Ephesians 1:10-11

For we are God's [own] handiwork (His workmanship), recreated in Christ Jesus, [born anew] that we may do those good works which God predestined (planned beforehand) for us [taking paths which He prepared ahead of time], that we should walk in them [living the good life which He prearranged and made ready for us to live]. --Ephesians 2:10

We're not even responsible for our own salvation. What good would it be to have free will if we can't even make that most fundamental choice freely?

So, you are saying that certain people are chosen by God to believe in Jesus and others are not chosen, and God makes that choice?

Belief is a choice. People are guided by God and God knows who will believe since God is omniscient, but the choice is left to man.

Of course we are responsible for our own salvation, because we have to choose what to believe and what deeds to do. God does not live our lives, God only guides our steps and God knows the final outcome. The omniscient God knows who will believe so God guides them. Those who rebel against God cannot be guided because they have made the choice to reject God.

"Some were guided by the Light of God, gained admittance into the court of His presence, and quaffed, from the hand of resignation, the waters of everlasting life, and were accounted of them that have truly recognized and believed in Him. Others rebelled against Him, and rejected the signs of God, the Most Powerful, the Almighty, the All-Wise.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 145

“He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 339

The most likely explanation is that neither of you are prophets. The role of original sin in wanting to be your own gods probably plays a part as well.

No, the most likely explanation is that my Christian friend interprets the same Bible verses differently than you do. He believes in original sin but he also believes in free will.

 

[Axe Elf]

Correct. Like the passage I quoted in my previous post, God directs our steps, but God does not choose our steps.

lol How would that even be possible? If God is directing your steps, He's the one choosing where you place your feet, not you.

Man plans and chooses what he wants to happen but it only happens if it is in accordance with God’s will. The final decision is wholly of the Lord.

Apparently you don't know what the word "wholly" means, if you think that the decision was suggested by our free will and merely allowed by God.

Your whole post is nothing more than a window to watching you try to walk a razor line between two contradictory assertions, which of course is a doomed venture from the start.

So, you are saying that certain people are chosen by God to believe in Jesus and others are not chosen, and God makes that choice?

I am reflecting that from the scriptures I cited, yes.

Belief is a choice.

A choice that has been predestined by God.

People are guided by God and God knows who will believe since God is omniscient, but the choice is left to man.

So if God knows you're going to hell, are you able to make any choice other than that (in which case God would be shown to be a fool), or are you locked into doing that which God knows you will do (in which case your choice is not "free" in the usual sense)? You have only two choices here; pick your pleasure.

Of course we are responsible for our own salvation, because we have to choose what to believe and what deeds to do.

That's not what the Bible tells us; but of course you are free to believe as you will.

God does not live our lives

No, God created our lives, and gave them to us to experience for ourselves.

God only guides our steps and God knows the final outcome.

And He knows every outcome because He created them all in the first place.

The omniscient God knows who will believe so God guides them.

God created some for salvation and some for destruction.

Those who rebel against God cannot be guided because they have made the choice to reject God.

Again, not what the Bible tells us. The Bible says that the wicked are fitted for their role, and created by God to demonstrate His sovereignty. Wouldn't God have been disappointed if they had chosen not to rebel against God instead!

No, the most likely explanation is that my Christian friend interprets the same Bible verses differently than you do.

That doesn't contradict what I said. Obviously, a non-prophet might be expected to interpret Bible verses differently from a prophet.

 

[Trailblazer]

That is what I am reflecting from the scriptures I cited, yes.

I see nothing in the scriptures that says we have no free will, that we are God’s robots. Problem is, every Christian website I was able to bring up says that we have free will, and they are reading the same Bible you are reading. What does that tell you, logically speaking?

I see that you are having two difficulties with this concept; one, that the concept of the future being just as fixed as the past seems to be anathema to you. You keep talking about destinies being changed, choices being allowed or disallowed, and so on. I believe the Bible is telling us that all of spacetime--every minute and every millimeter--was created in the act of creation. It exists eternally as a fixed, unchanging creation; apparent "change" being only a change in perspective, a manifestation of different points of view in space and time.

There is no interplay between us making a decision, then God deciding whether or not to allow it, etc. Everything we do, every decision we make, was created by God in the act of creating spacetime--the universe. There's no need to tweak that which was created; it's already the best of all possible universes.

God does not create our decisions. God just knows what they will be before during and after we make them. God oversees our decisions and God is able to override our decisions.

What you are saying does not correlate with what we see in the real world. Try telling this to the judge after you have just murdered your wife:

“Judge, I did not have any choice in the matter! God created this decision for me so I am not responsible for it.”

That is sure convenient and it takes away ALL accountability for our behavior.
Why would a just and benevolent God allow humans to be punished for what He created?

The second difficulty you are having, I can't really talk about because of the rules of this site. So here we are.

And so that is all you have left, insults, and no more arguments? That’s too bad, because I have lots of more arguments, ones that make sense.

 

[Axe Elf]

I see nothing in the scriptures that says we have no free will, that we are God’s robots.

That's because you have your fingers in your ears, loudly chanting "LA LA LA LA LA LA LA" instead of listening to what they are telling you. I mean this stuff is pretty clear otherwise...

O Lord [pleads Jeremiah in the name of the people], I know that [the determination of] the way of a man is not in himself; it is not in man [even in a strong man or in a man at his best] to direct his [own] steps. --Jeremiah 10:23

No one is able to come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me attracts and draws him and gives him the desire to come to Me, and [then] I will raise him up [from the dead] at the last day. --John 6:44

And when the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified (praised and gave thanks for) the Word of God; and as many as were destined (appointed and ordained) to eternal life believed (adhered to, trusted in, and relied on Jesus as the Christ and their Savior). --Acts 13:48

For we are God's [own] handiwork (His workmanship), recreated in Christ Jesus, [born anew] that we may do those good works which God predestined (planned beforehand) for us [taking paths which He prepared ahead of time], that we should walk in them [living the good life which He prearranged and made ready for us to live]. --Ephesians 2:10

And not only that, but this too: Rebecca conceived [two sons under exactly the same circumstances] by our forefather Isaac, and the children were yet unborn and had so far done nothing either good or evil. Even so, in order further to carry out God's purpose of selection (election, choice), which depends not on works or what men can do, but on Him Who calls [them], it was said to her that the elder [son] should serve the younger [son]. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated (held in relative disregard in comparison with My feeling for Jacob). What shall we conclude then? Is there injustice upon God's part? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion (pity) on whom I will have compassion. So then [God's gift] is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God's mercy. [It depends not on one's own willingness nor on his strenuous exertion as in running a race, but on God's having mercy on him.] For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, I have raised you up for this very purpose of displaying My power in [dealing with] you, so that My name may be proclaimed the whole world over. So then He has mercy on whomever He wills (chooses) and He hardens (makes stubborn and unyielding the heart of) whomever He wills. You will say to me, Why then does He still find fault and blame us [for sinning]? For who can resist and withstand His will? But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and answer back to God? Will what is formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus? Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same mass (lump) one vessel for beauty and distinction and honorable use, and another for menial or ignoble and dishonorable use? --Romans 9:10-21

Is it any wonder that I'm left to question your ability to reason?

Problem is, every Christian website I was able to bring up says that we have free will, and they are reading the same Bible you are reading. What does that tell you, logically speaking?

Logically speaking, it tells me that God created some people to understand His creation in more abstract objective concepts, and He made other people to understand things at a more limited, subjective level. But then the Bible tells us about that, too...

"Yet when we are among the full-grown (spiritually mature Christians who are ripe in understanding), we do impart a [higher] wisdom (the knowledge of the divine plan previously hidden);" --1 Corinthians 2:6

"If indeed God permits, we will [now] proceed [to advanced teaching]." --Hebrews 6:3

Again, that's why you have us prophets, to help you with the more difficult concepts.

God does not create our decisions.

I see God as the creator of the universe. You disagree. So here we are.

What you are saying does not correlate with what we see in the real world. Try telling this to the judge after you have just murdered your wife:

“Judge, I did not have any choice in the matter! God created this decision for me so I am not responsible for it.”

If I was to make an appeal based on the predestination described in the Bible, then the argument you put in my mouth is nonsense. Being predestined to do something does not relieve my responsibility for it.

However, I could get lucky and get a judge who was predestined to make a bad decision and let me go anyway...

That is sure convenient and it takes away ALL accountability for our behavior.
Why would a just and benevolent God allow humans to be punished for what He created?

I have referred you to this scripture like three times now for the explanation of this concept. I'll try it again, but I'm not promising any great leaps in your intellect because of my repetition of it. Predestination does not relieve us of accountability.

And not only that, but this too: Rebecca conceived [two sons under exactly the same circumstances] by our forefather Isaac, and the children were yet unborn and had so far done nothing either good or evil. Even so, in order further to carry out God's purpose of selection (election, choice), which depends not on works or what men can do, but on Him Who calls [them], it was said to her that the elder [son] should serve the younger [son]. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated (held in relative disregard in comparison with My feeling for Jacob). What shall we conclude then? Is there injustice upon God's part? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion (pity) on whom I will have compassion. So then [God's gift] is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God's mercy. [It depends not on one's own willingness nor on his strenuous exertion as in running a race, but on God's having mercy on him.] For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, I have raised you up for this very purpose of displaying My power in [dealing with] you, so that My name may be proclaimed the whole world over. So then He has mercy on whomever He wills (chooses) and He hardens (makes stubborn and unyielding the heart of) whomever He wills. You will say to me, Why then does He still find fault and blame us [for sinning]? For who can resist and withstand His will? But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and answer back to God? Will what is formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus? Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same mass (lump) one vessel for beauty and distinction and honorable use, and another for menial or ignoble and dishonorable use? --Romans 9:10-21

I have lots of more arguments, ones that make sense.

Well jeez, don't you think you should have started with those, instead of the ones that DON'T make sense?

Let's hear them then...

 

[Trailblazer]

lol How would that even be possible? If God is directing your steps, He's the one choosing where you place your feet, not you.

direct: control the operations of; manage or govern. https://www.google.com/search
choose: pick out or select (someone or something) as being the best or most appropriate of two or more alternatives. https://www.google.com/search

We choose where to put our feet but God has control over where they land.

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 209

Apparently you don't know what the word "wholly" means, if you think that the decision was suggested by our free will and merely allowed by God.

wholly: entirely; fully https://www.google.com/search

God gave us a brain with a mind so we could think and make choices.

Humans have the will/ability to make choices based upon their desires and preferences. Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. How free they are varies with the situation. Certainly what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints. However, we have the ability to make moral choices. For example, I can choose to murder my husband or not. Regarding choices that relate to physical needs, we are compelled to eat and sleep, but we can chose what we eat and when and how long we sleep.

We choose to take the walk but the final decision [as to where our feet land] is wholly of the Lord.

Your whole post is nothing more than a window to watching you try to walk a razor line between two contradictory assertions, which of course is a doomed venture from the start.

What is contradictory about it?

I am reflecting that from the scriptures I cited, yes.

So the believers are just innocent bystanders, they do not have to do anything but sit and wait for God to decide what they will believe?

John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

A choice that has been predestined by God.

Predestined by God but not chosen by God. God does not make choices, humans make choices. God just knows what we will choose before during and after we choose it.

So if God knows you're going to hell, are you able to make any choice other than that (in which case God would be shown to be a fool), or are you locked into doing that which God knows you will do (in which case your choice is not "free" in the usual sense)? You have only two choices here; pick your pleasure.

I do not believe in a place called hell, but rather I believe that heaven is nearness to God and hell is distance from God. Whether we are near or distant from God is a choice but it is constrained by the factors I listed above.

No, we do not have any choice except to do what God knows we will do because what God knows what we will do is identical with what we will do. God knows what we will do because God is omniscient, but God does not cause it to happen, we do. The choice is ours.

The fact that God knows what we will do is not want causes what we do to happen. We cause it to happen by choosing. It is the constraints on our free will that prevent us from choosing to be near to God, not what God knows we will do.

That's not what the Bible tells us; but of course you are free to believe as you will.

What the Bible tells YOU is not what the Bible tells everyone else, so that means that the Bible can be interpreted in different ways. I have been going down this road with Christians for four years. The Bible does not talk and tell us things. It is words on a page which have to be read and interpreted. If every Christian interpreted the Bible the same way, there would not be so many different Christian beliefs.

Every Christian I have ever known has said that we are responsible for our own salvation and that salvation is conferred upon us by choosing to believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. That is the core belief although some Christians believe we need to also believe in the resurrection and ascension and return. The fact that God knows which people will choose is not what makes them choose. It is their desires and preferences that cause them to choose one way or another.

And He knows every outcome because He created them all in the first place.

True, God knows every outcome, but we create the outcome by choosing to create what God knows we will create.

God created some for salvation and some for destruction.

As a Baha’i, I do not believe in salvation and destruction. I believe that everyone’s eternal destination is along a continuum.

Again, not what the Bible tells us. The Bible says that the wicked are fitted for their role, and created by God to demonstrate His sovereignty. Wouldn't God have been disappointed if they had chosen not to rebel against God instead!

Again, what the Bible tells YOU is not what the Bible tells everyone else, so that means that the Bible can be interpreted in different ways. If every Christian interpreted the Bible the same way, there would not be so many different Christian beliefs.

That doesn't contradict what I said. Obviously, a non-prophet might be expected to interpret Bible verses differently from a prophet.

Are you claiming to be a prophet of God?

 

[Trailblazer]

That's because you have your fingers in your ears, loudly chanting "LA LA LA LA LA LA LA" instead of listening to what they are telling you. I mean this stuff is pretty clear otherwise...

No, it is all because I INTERPRET the scriptures differently than you do.

O Lord [pleads Jeremiah in the name of the people], I know that [the determination of] the way of a man is not in himself; it is not in man [even in a strong man or in a man at his best] to direct his [own] steps. –Jeremiah 10:23

God directs our steps, but God does not choose where we put our feet.

No one is able to come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me attracts and draws him and gives him the desire to come to Me, and [then] I will raise him up [from the dead] at the last day. --John 6:44

God attracts and draws him and gives him the desire but God does not choose who comes to Him.

And when the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified (praised and gave thanks for) the Word of God; and as many as were destined (appointed and ordained) to eternal life believed (adhered to, trusted in, and relied on Jesus as the Christ and their Savior). --Acts 13:48

Many were destined to believe but they had to choose to believe.

For we are God's [own] handiwork (His workmanship), recreated in Christ Jesus, [born anew] that we may do those good works which God predestined (planned beforehand) for us [taking paths which He prepared ahead of time], that we should walk in them [living the good life which He prearranged and made ready for us to live]. --Ephesians 2:10

We choose to do those good works which God knew we would choose since they were predestined.

Is it any wonder that I'm left to question your ability to reason?

You mean reason exactly like you do.

Logically speaking, it tells me that God created some people to understand His creation in more abstract objective concepts, and He made other people to understand things at a more limited, subjective level. But then the Bible tells us about that, too...

"Yet when we are among the full-grown (spiritually mature Christians who are ripe in understanding), we do impart a [higher] wisdom (the knowledge of the divine plan previously hidden);" --1 Corinthians 2:6
"If indeed God permits, we will [now] proceed [to advanced teaching]." --Hebrews 6:3
Again, that's why you have us prophets, to help you with the more difficult concepts.

In short, you know more than any of those “other Christians” because you were chosen.

I see God as the creator of the universe. You disagree. So here we are.

No, I said God does not create our decisions. God did create the universe.

If I was to make an appeal based on the predestination described in the Bible, then the argument you put in my mouth is nonsense. Being predestined to do something does not relieve my responsibility for it.

If you did not choose to do it then you are not responsible for it.

I have referred you to this scripture like three times now for the explanation of this concept. I'll try it again, but I'm not promising any great leaps in your intellect because of my repetition of it. Predestination does not relieve us of accountability.

Of course it does, if we do not also have free will. If we did not choose to do something we are not responsible for it and we are not accountable. If God made us do a murder [by virtue of predestining it for us, thus locking us in] then we are not accountable, God is accountable. Only if we have free will are we accountable.

Case in point: In a court of law, those who are insane or mentally deficient are not accountable because it has been determined that they are not free to choose their actions.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I have no idea what the hell people are going on about in this thread now but it's very off-topic and I would appreciate it if it was taken to a more appropriate thread.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The argument is that the universe as a whole is the best of all possible universes.

We don't even know if this is the only universe. Could be some are better off.

to wit, that 84% of all people on Earth believe in God), and then looking for the simplest explanation (per Occam) to account for the observed fact. In this case, the simplest explanation is that God exists,

That isn't occam's razor but an appeal to popularity.

 

[Euronymous]

I know I am late to this thread, but what is the purpose of this thread exactly?

 

[Rival]

I know I am late to this thread, but what is the purpose of this thread exactly?

No-one knows anymore.

 

[Euronymous]

No-one knows anymore.

OK.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I know I am late to this thread, but what is the purpose of this thread exactly?

I was angry and venting about the bigotry on this forum. I was thinking of leaving. I have no idea how it got turned into some debate about God and free will, but hopefully that's over.

 

[savagewind]

I was angry and venting about the bigotry on this forum. I was thinking of leaving. I have no idea how it got turned into some debate about God and free will, but hopefully that's over.

Hopefully, it's over.

What happened to your other self, please. I want to know!

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Hopefully, it's over.

What happened to your other self, please. I want to know!

"Other self"? I'm not sure what you mean.

 

[savagewind]

"Other self"? I'm not sure what you mean.

Really? That worries me. Did you not post under a different name and people called that person "Frank" and it was you?