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In Defense of Beauty Against This World's So Called "Holy Men" (A Polemic)

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
A few years ago, an imam urged his congregation to "avoid looking at the moon because its beauty will distract you from thinking of God". By far, he is not the only holy man or woman to say such a thing.

Jiddu Krishnamurti, a man who lived such an exemplary life that thousands or tens of thousands of people once considered him the final reincarnation of the Buddha (Though he himself seems to have thought that ridiculous), passionately wrote:

"Throughout the world, so-called holy men have maintained that to look at a woman is something totally wrong: they say you cannot come near to God if you indulge in sex, therefore they push it aside although they are eaten up with it. But by denying sexuality they put out their eyes and cut out their tongues for they deny the whole beauty of the earth. They have starved their hearts and minds; they are dehydrated human beings; they have banished beauty because beauty is associated with woman." [Think on These Things, Jiddu Krishnamurti, 1964, pp 62-63]​

The religious arguments against beauty seem to boil down to just three basic arguments: (1) Beauty will hinder or prevent you from "coming near to God", or from attaining to enlightenment (or god, samadhi, satori, kensho, etc), (2) beauty is shallow or superficial, and (3) beauty is fleeting, transitory, and fragile.

As to the first argument, it strikes me as true that beauty can hinder or prevent what might conveniently be called, "spiritual realization". But what exists in this world that cannot hinder or prevent you from spiritual realization if and when you become emotionally or psychologically attached to it?

Anything and everything you become attached to has the very same effect of hindering or preventing you from spiritual realization. Consequently, the solution is to destroy your attachment, but not to deny the things you are attached to. To deny the things you are attached to is foolish because the denial itself is an action of the self and thus serves to actually strengthen your attachment. You will merely substitute "I am emotionally and psychologically attached to beauty" for "I am emotionally and psychologically attached to denying beauty".

Treat beauty like a flower that you do not want to pluck and possess -- for that would be clinging to it, that would be becoming attached to it -- but rather pause only briefly to see and smell the flower before passing it on the road. Thus, attachment will not become a problem that hinders or prevents you from spiritual realization.

Second, the argument that beauty is shallow and superficial is really an argument that your approach to beauty is shallow and superficial. But if you are concerned with spiritual realization, isn't that precisely how you should approach beauty? Not as something so profound you are tempted to cling to it, to become attached to it, but as something so shallow and superficial that you would delight in it lightly and fleetingly without clinging to it.

As for the third and final argument, that beauty is "fleeting, transitory, and fragile", is that a sound objection to it?

Surely, we should not devalue things simply because they are fleeting, transitory and fragile. Flowers don't last forever, nor do most loves. Does that mean viewing flowers and loving people are foolish?

Balderdash!

I say that makes them all the more precious!

Our fleeting years of beauty should be precious to us too. Youth has a glow, a beauty to it, and nearly every young person possesses that beauty for awhile. It is not something to be disparaged because it eventually ends, anymore than we would disparage life itself because life itself eventually ends.

How pathetic are those who live without wholly embracing life, who devalue and deny life because it is transitory! They ought to have carved on their tombstones, "I was given the greatest gift, the gift of life, but refused it. Passerby, if that is your path also, then weep not for me, but for yourself."

Beauty, along with the purest forms of love, are what make it possible for us to embrace life, to wholly accept life on its own terms, even when we are worn and troubled. And unless we can fully accept life, how can we fully live? If we fail to fully accept life then we do not die, it does not actually kill us to deny life, but rather we become "dehydrated human beings", we become shells, outwardly smiling while inwardly sighing in despair.

The only spiritual danger beauty truly poses for us is that we might become emotionally or psychologically attached to it. But that is not an intrinsic problem with beauty, but a problem with ourselves. To blame beauty for creating the problem, and then to deny beauty, is to deny life. Would a genuinely holy man or woman deny life?

Comments? Questions? Radical Political Pamphlets? Used tissues?
 

danieldemol

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I understand the gist of what you are saying to be experience beauty but don’t be attached to it and I agree.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
I cherish Beauty as something that raises my mind and heart to the supernatural creative force that is responsible for it.

I have nothing against Beauty. I have a shrine to some beautiful women in heaven who I feel close to, and I look at their faces while I pray.

It's just, I think fleshly beauty is temporary, and spiritual beauty can be eternal.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
It's just, I think fleshly beauty is temporary, and spiritual beauty can be eternal.

I'm guessing that you feel "fleshly beauty" is somewhat less valuable or precious than "spiritual beauty", because the former is transitory and the latter is not. What I don't understand is this, PopeADope: Why would being transitory amount to something having any less value than it would have if it were eternal?

I mean, the duration of a thing does not make sense to me as something that increases or decreases that things value.

Sometimes a person's bones endure longer in the grave than they themselves endured in life. Does that mean their bones are more valuable than their life was?

Most mystical experiences in which our awareness is radically changed are brief and fleeting, lasting only a few moments, but are they therefore any less life changing, any less life affirming?

Sexual orgasms are thought by many people to be the most intense physical pleasure they have experienced in the whole of their lives, but does that mean they would be happier if they experienced such things constantly, through the day and through the night, with no pause or break? It would be easy to say so, but think what havoc that would make of living!
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
I'm guessing that you feel "fleshly beauty" is somewhat less valuable or precious than "spiritual beauty", because the former is transitory and the latter is not. What I don't understand is this, PopeADope: Why would being transitory amount to something having any less value than it would have if it were eternal?

I mean, the duration of a thing does not make sense to me as something that increases or decreases that things value.

Sometimes a person's bones endure longer in the grave than they themselves endured in life. Does that mean their bones are more valuable than their life was?

Most mystical experiences in which our awareness is radically changed are brief and fleeting, lasting only a few moments, but are they therefore any less life changing, any less life affirming?

Sexual orgasms are thought by many people to be the most intense physical pleasure they have experienced in the whole of their lives, but does that mean they would be happier if they experienced such things constantly, through the day and through the night, with no pause or break? It would be easy to say so, but think what havoc that would make of living!
I've had a lot of ugly people perform acts of kindness for me.

to me, those acts of kindness were more beautiful, then somebody with the best hair, the nicest clothes, the nicest figure, who spends hours and hours before the mirror, who has no love for other people.

I would say, if there is something that is enjoyable and beautiful, that can be eternal, that is better than something brief and fleeting, because it endures far longer...

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with admiring Beauty. I think it can be a very spiritual practice to do so!
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
I see this whole construction as a superego thing (Superego being the perfecting principle--Idealistically based.) See Plato's World of Forms.

Beauty can be seen as "harmony of imperfections." The imperfections (deviations from the Ideal--the Forms/Ideals from Plato's World of forms cannot perfectly manifest here in reality--much to the chagrin of the Superego's Perfection Principle) draw your attention, and the harmony of imperfections that captivate is known as beauty.

So, the question is: are you going to let Superego keep you from appreciating and watering the impermanet (and imperfect) flowers while they last?
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
The religious arguments against beauty seem to boil down to just three basic arguments: (1) Beauty will hinder or prevent you from "coming near to God", or from attaining to enlightenment (or god, samadhi, satori, kensho, etc), (2) beauty is shallow or superficial, and (3) beauty is fleeting, transitory, and fragile.
My reply:
  1. God's nature includes beauty. Enjoying beauty that does not exploit others is to share in divinity.
  2. Beauty is not shallow, but deep and satisfying.
  3. Everything is fleeting. We must enjoy the moments while they persist and release them quickly.
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
But what exists in this world that cannot hinder or prevent you from spiritual realization if and when you become emotionally or psychologically attached to it?
I think it is only psychologically unbalanced attachment that is the problem. For example, my love for my dog (and my dog's love for me) borders on the divine in its purity and awesomeness. Very healthy and spiritually fulfilling.
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
Youth has a glow, a beauty to it, and nearly every young person possesses that beauty for awhile. It is not something to be disparaged because it eventually ends, anymore than we would disparage life itself because life itself eventually ends.
Yes, good observation. All things must pass and etc.
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
Beauty, along with the purest forms of love, are what make it possible for us to embrace life, to wholly accept life on its own terms, even when we are worn and troubled. And unless we can fully accept life, how can we fully live?
Yes, I see these as aspects of God which I share in with him/her/it in enjoying them.
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
The only spiritual danger beauty truly poses for us is that we might become emotionally or psychologically attached to it. But that is not an intrinsic problem with beauty, but a problem with ourselves.
I suppose only a problem if it becomes a psychological problem, a psychological disorder causing suffering.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Seems to me, Christianity and it's philosophical sources were anti-body, teaching that the body is bad. And this nonsensical idea persists even today.

I would agree there is a quite prominent and strong ascetic strain in Christianity, as there is in some other religions as well. Polemics are generally one-sided and mine is no exception. I come down on ascetic holy men and women in it. But in truth, their asceticism is as much a path to spiritual realization as any path is. That is, it might work perhaps as much as five percent of the time, although I suspect much less often than that.

The trouble I have with such holy men and women is that they all to often recommend -- or even demand in some cases -- that everyone be like them, be an ascetic. They think they have the only path that's true or effective, and they think it's a suitable path for everyone.
 

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
A few years ago, an imam urged his congregation to "avoid looking at the moon because its beauty will distract you from thinking of God". By far, he is not the only holy man or woman to say such a thing.

Jiddu Krishnamurti, a man who lived such an exemplary life that thousands or tens of thousands of people once considered him the final reincarnation of the Buddha (Though he himself seems to have thought that ridiculous), passionately wrote:

"Throughout the world, so-called holy men have maintained that to look at a woman is something totally wrong: they say you cannot come near to God if you indulge in sex, therefore they push it aside although they are eaten up with it. But by denying sexuality they put out their eyes and cut out their tongues for they deny the whole beauty of the earth. They have starved their hearts and minds; they are dehydrated human beings; they have banished beauty because beauty is associated with woman." [Think on These Things, Jiddu Krishnamurti, 1964, pp 62-63]​

The religious arguments against beauty seem to boil down to just three basic arguments: (1) Beauty will hinder or prevent you from "coming near to God", or from attaining to enlightenment (or god, samadhi, satori, kensho, etc), (2) beauty is shallow or superficial, and (3) beauty is fleeting, transitory, and fragile.

As to the first argument, it strikes me as true that beauty can hinder or prevent what might conveniently be called, "spiritual realization". But what exists in this world that cannot hinder or prevent you from spiritual realization if and when you become emotionally or psychologically attached to it?

Anything and everything you become attached to has the very same effect of hindering or preventing you from spiritual realization. Consequently, the solution is to destroy your attachment, but not to deny the things you are attached to. To deny the things you are attached to is foolish because the denial itself is an action of the self and thus serves to actually strengthen your attachment. You will merely substitute "I am emotionally and psychologically attached to beauty" for "I am emotionally and psychologically attached to denying beauty".

Treat beauty like a flower that you do not want to pluck and possess -- for that would be clinging to it, that would be becoming attached to it -- but rather pause only briefly to see and smell the flower before passing it on the road. Thus, attachment will not become a problem that hinders or prevents you from spiritual realization.

Second, the argument that beauty is shallow and superficial is really an argument that your approach to beauty is shallow and superficial. But if you are concerned with spiritual realization, isn't that precisely how you should approach beauty? Not as something so profound you are tempted to cling to it, to become attached to it, but as something so shallow and superficial that you would delight in it lightly and fleetingly without clinging to it.

As for the third and final argument, that beauty is "fleeting, transitory, and fragile", is that a sound objection to it?

Surely, we should not devalue things simply because they are fleeting, transitory and fragile. Flowers don't last forever, nor do most loves. Does that mean viewing flowers and loving people are foolish?

Balderdash!

I say that makes them all the more precious!

Our fleeting years of beauty should be precious to us too. Youth has a glow, a beauty to it, and nearly every young person possesses that beauty for awhile. It is not something to be disparaged because it eventually ends, anymore than we would disparage life itself because life itself eventually ends.

How pathetic are those who live without wholly embracing life, who devalue and deny life because it is transitory! They ought to have carved on their tombstones, "I was given the greatest gift, the gift of life, but refused it. Passerby, if that is your path also, then weep not for me, but for yourself."

Beauty, along with the purest forms of love, are what make it possible for us to embrace life, to wholly accept life on its own terms, even when we are worn and troubled. And unless we can fully accept life, how can we fully live? If we fail to fully accept life then we do not die, it does not actually kill us to deny life, but rather we become "dehydrated human beings", we become shells, outwardly smiling while inwardly sighing in despair.

The only spiritual danger beauty truly poses for us is that we might become emotionally or psychologically attached to it. But that is not an intrinsic problem with beauty, but a problem with ourselves. To blame beauty for creating the problem, and then to deny beauty, is to deny life. Would a genuinely holy man or woman deny life?

Comments? Questions? Radical Political Pamphlets? Used tissues?

Thanks for the link to this SS. Excellent timing. Had a kind of melancholy week of reflection with my last child graduating high school this week. Lots of reminiscing. Time really does fly. I think we tend to sometimes (often actually) dread the end of youth, our health, our childrens early years, that we fail to recognize the beauty, fragility and wondrous miracle of every stage of life till it passes us by. May we all strive to appreciate the present moment for how special it truly is.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
The only spiritual danger beauty truly poses for us is that we might become emotionally or psychologically attached to it. But that is not an intrinsic problem with beauty, but a problem with ourselves. To blame beauty for creating the problem, and then to deny beauty, is to deny life. Would a genuinely holy man or woman deny life?
There was a time when spirituality was the opposite of the world; when the spiritual path involved renouncing the world. The histories of both East and West are full of stories of anchorites, of sadhus living in caves having renounced the world.

That time is past or at least rapidly passing.
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
The trouble I have with such holy men and women is that they all to often recommend -- or even demand in some cases -- that everyone be like them
That's the same trouble I have with nearly everyone. Just leave me alone please. :) (I'm talking to you, government.)
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
As to the first argument, it strikes me as true that beauty can hinder or prevent what might conveniently be called, "spiritual realization".
?But what exists in this world that cannot hinder or prevent you from spiritual realization if and when you become emotionally or psychologically attached to it?

?Even attachment to "detachment" + God + "spiritual realization" will be a hindrance.
But keep those 3 to the last. Just giving up 3 attachments is much easier than giving up 1000++
 
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lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm guessing that you feel "fleshly beauty" is somewhat less valuable or precious than "spiritual beauty", because the former is transitory and the latter is not. What I don't understand is this, PopeADope: Why would being transitory amount to something having any less value than it would have if it were eternal?

I mean, the duration of a thing does not make sense to me as something that increases or decreases that things value.

Sometimes a person's bones endure longer in the grave than they themselves endured in life. Does that mean their bones are more valuable than their life was?

Most mystical experiences in which our awareness is radically changed are brief and fleeting, lasting only a few moments, but are they therefore any less life changing, any less life affirming?

For me, it's less about whether they are eternal, and more about the effort in establishing and sustaining them.

There are shortcuts to physical beauty. Makeup, operations, tailoring, etc. Take any person, invest in great grooming and clothing, and their physical beauty is instantly enhanced.

That simply isn't the case with spiritual beauty.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
As for the third and final argument, that beauty is "fleeting, transitory, and fragile", is that a sound objection to it?

Hardly, when life is exactly like this in reality for all humans and for all other life too. Perhaps one of the main issues I have with the more fundamentalist versions of Islam - the niqab or burqa demands - apart from the equality aspect for females, is in actually making beauty more desirable probably. Attachment is possibly the biggest problem we tend to face as humans, whether to ideas or to behaviour or to things. Good post - as usual. :D
 
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