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In Defense of Insulting People and Ideas...

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
It seems to me that censorship is one of the most common and dangerous ways in which governments and other institutions repress humans. It is dangerous not only because it can prevent people from finding out the truth, but also because freedom of speech and press are cornerstone freedoms: Other freedoms are meaningless without them. For instance, freedom of religion, without freedom of speech, is virtually a hollow and meaningless farce.

So far as I can see, one of the key ways in which anti-social politicians, pundits, and preachers attack freedom of speech is to say it is justified when someone's speech offends or insults others.

As it happens, that's pure BS.

It's BS because, among other reasons, there will always be someone who is insulted by anyone or anything that disagrees with him or her. Often enough, that person will not say, "I am insulted because you have told me something I disagree with." They will lie and say instead, "You said something just to insult me."

Again, it is BS to attack free speech on the basis of whether or not it insults anyone because we are a species that all too often finds the truth insulting. In fact, though it is common to claim to be insulted by lies, we tend to be insulted at least as often by truths. Thus to attack free speech on the basis of whether it insults people is, in effect, to promote the suppression of the truth.

For those and other reasons, we should drop this nonsense about free speech ending where insults begin. That is so childish and thin-skinned. A free humanity is not possible with such views.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
One might argue there is no such thing as a "free humanity." Regardless of whether or not we hold social constructs like "freedom of speech" that doesn't eliminate the fact that one's words have consequences. One may supposedly have the freedom to do what one wants, but that doesn't free us from the consequences. Consequences of our actions are regulated by a formal institution (e.g., laws) or informal ones (e.g., etiquette) under all situations. Humans will always be self-limiting their behaviors, and limiting those of others, based upon construction of these social norms.

It's true it is impossible to utter a word without some other human disagreeing with it. It's also ultimately true that we can say whatever we want, regardless of social norms and others disagreeing with us. And, it's also true that it's not a bad idea to consider the consequences of what is uttered from one's mouth. In particular, I really don't think it's too much to ask people to generally adhere to the wisdom of the golden rule: don't be a $#@%. Using "freedom of speech" as an excuse to be a $#@% is something that to me is indicative of poor character. I'll grant that others think that being a $#@% when speaking your mind is admirable, but I am not one of them most of the time.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
As a gay man, who regularly listens to religious people, I can't feel any sympathy for religious people feeling insulted by Charle Hebdo.The list of people who feel that their religion gives them reason to insult me is endless.

I will insult religious people with the truth any time I want to do so.

Tom
 
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Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Freedom of speech is not a shield against criticism. And that applies to anyone, both insulter and insulted.

It's not suppression of freedom of speech to criticize others for being deliberately offensive, or even to tell them not to be offending. It would be suppression of freedom of speech if the law made insults illegal.

I consider it incredibly short-sighted and immature to deliberately provoke dangerous people, particularly when the lives of others are on the line. Bluntly put, such provocation potentially puts me and mine in unnecessary danger. However, I would not ever stand by making such provocation illegal. It would be impossible to enforce fairly, and is far too much a slippery slope into potentially far more suppressive laws that could make freedom of speech obsolete.

In short, if I tell you not to insult me, that's fine because I'm not speaking on behalf of the government, but for myself. If the government told you not to insult me, throw me the worst Irish insult you got and lets stand together against such a tyrant.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I consider it incredibly short-sighted and immature to deliberately provoke dangerous people, particularly when the lives of others are on the line. Bluntly put, such provocation potentially puts me and mine in unnecessary danger.

Such provocation can also contribute to undermining the authority and power of dangerous people. How powerful do you think Pat Robertson would be if he were not daily provoked, insulted, and made fun of? Between your butt and his whip lies a lot of insults, in my opinion, Riverwolf.
 

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
I am a small bit concerned that our governments, in protecting 'freedom of speech', will increasingly restrict our freedom. Off the top of my head I'm thinking along the lines of increased government surveillance, requirements for passports to travel within Europe etc
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
It seems to me that censorship is one of the most common and dangerous ways in which governments and other institutions repress humans. It is dangerous not only because it can prevent people from finding out the truth, but also because freedom of speech and press are cornerstone freedoms: Other freedoms are meaningless without them. For instance, freedom of religion, without freedom of speech, is virtually a hollow and meaningless farce.

So far as I can see, one of the key ways in which anti-social politicians, pundits, and preachers attack freedom of speech is to say it is justified when someone's speech offends or insults others.

As it happens, that's pure BS.

It's BS because, among other reasons, there will always be someone who is insulted by anyone or anything that disagrees with him or her. Often enough, that person will not say, "I am insulted because you have told me something I disagree with." They will lie and say instead, "You said something just to insult me."

Again, it is BS to attack free speech on the basis of whether or not it insults anyone because we are a species that all too often finds the truth insulting. In fact, though it is common to claim to be insulted by lies, we tend to be insulted at least as often by truths. Thus to attack free speech on the basis of whether it insults people is, in effect, to promote the suppression of the truth.

For those and other reasons, we should drop this nonsense about free speech ending where insults begin. That is so childish and thin-skinned. A free humanity is not possible with such views.

Questions.......
Should European countries repeal their laws which ban debates, doubts and questions about the Holocaust?
Do you still support anti- harassment, incitement, discrimination, slander and libel laws?
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I am a small bit concerned that our governments, in protecting 'freedom of speech', will increasingly restrict our freedom. Off the top of my head I'm thinking along the lines of increased government surveillance, requirements for passports to travel within Europe etc

Ha ha! Double-think becoming Double-action!
After recent events the new legislations will put surveillance through the roof. Having said that, if it can save lives...... protect people....... ok.
Recent arrests around the World (Belgium, UK, USA) show that surveillance can produce protection. :)
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I so agree with the OP.

People need to be capable of expressing how inclined they are to accept and respect other people and ideas. And that requires the option of being insulting.
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
As a gay man, who regularly listens to religious people, I can't feel any sympathy for religious people feeling insulted by Charle Hebdo. @1robin confidently asserts that I spread infectious diseases. @A_servant_of_one asserts that my 23 year relationship is pure lust. The list of people who feel that their religion gives them reason to insult me is endless.
I will insult religious people with the truth any time I want to do so.

Well said. I'm not gay myself, but I feel the religious homophobia we see on this forum and elsewhere is both insulting and personal.
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
I am a small bit concerned that our governments, in protecting 'freedom of speech', will increasingly restrict our freedom. Off the top of my head I'm thinking along the lines of increased government surveillance, requirements for passports to travel within Europe etc

It's a tricky balance, but if it stops some religious nutter trying to blow me up on the London underground, well, OK.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
Personally, I am on the RF because they monitor speech. I respect there authority to do so and like it. I wouldn't mind speech being limited in the free world as well but I don't know how to limit it only what I don't like. It is because I don't know how to properly limit it that I support free speech but I don't like it.
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
Should European countries repeal their laws which ban debates, doubts and questions about the Holocaust?
Do you still support anti- harassment, incitement, discrimination, slander and libel laws?

The limits of free speech are politically determined and may change over time. It's far from perfect in modern democracies, but surely preferable to living under a totalitarian regime where freedom of speech is viewed as an unnecessary luxury or as a threat to state control.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
The limits of free speech are politically determined and may change over time. It's far from perfect in modern democracies, but surely preferable to living under a totalitarian regime where freedom of speech is viewed as an unnecessary luxury or as a threat to state control.

So you do support limits to free-speech...?
All this 'calling out' for free speech...... until we don't want it!
Double-think in action! :)
 
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