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In Science We Trust

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
So, we are supposed to abandon science because it's wrong sometimes. If only people used the same scale when it comes to evaluating magical thinking.

Science will get things wrong on the frontiers of knowledge, but it is very rare for an established theory to be overturned.

On the other hand, what has magical thinking contributed to human well being? Has it found treatments for cancer or given us the world of electricity and electronics? Has it advanced medical treatment of diseases? No, it just leaves people ignorant and dead.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
So, we are supposed to abandon science because it's wrong sometimes. If only people used the same scale when it comes to evaluating magical thinking.

Science will get things wrong on the frontiers of knowledge, but it is very rare for an established theory to be overturned.

On the other hand, what has magical thinking contributed to human well being? Has it found treatments for cancer or given us the world of electricity and electronics? Has it advanced medical treatment of diseases? No, it just leaves people ignorant and dead.

No, be critical about its limits and understand its cultural part. There are more than one way to understand science and it doesn't involve religion.
How is it that you understand the world in just black or white? There is more than just one kind of science versus religion.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
The state is us, the taxpayers.
And taxpayers/citizens are the beneficiaries. The point being is that the polio vaccine is available to all people regardless of their ability to pay. That is social contract. That is public service. That is civilized.

Contrast that with people who struggle to afford insulin and try to cut back on doses. Sometimes that leads to their hospitalization or death. Meanwhile the "pro-life" party does little to help them.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
In general, I'm saying we should think critically about the sciences rather than simply blindly trusting them

The irony is that it is unscientific to blindly trust anything - including science.
Ironically, the scientific method is developed and structured in such way, specifically to NOT having to trust it "blindly".

Science is very results based.
We can trust atomic theory is quite accurate because nukes explode.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
When humans babies have to use kindergarten science for their adult men liars.....
O earth brother pretend which is what theories are that you own a status you don't own.

I Do it everyday says the human scientist.

Pretend you stand on earth with no atmosphere.

Ludicrous he says.

Okay no conscious concept would exist to use infer the gas advice to convert the planet. No science.

Exactly advised by God the planet only.

No laws either he says as I would not exist to talk about lying.

Yet in theories you pretend earth as rock stone first. And only by formula a substance. No atmosphere your life. Not in the theory...subject just earth rock stone.

Do you see how and why man of science said they were the God?

As you should.

Every star gas group you thesis about. Earth is nothing like any of them.

You exist. Our heavens exists. The planet exists.

Looking out any variable type exists in the same moment.

Rock stone dusts minerals dirt clay crystals all exist in the same moment.

As you look see observe biology consciousness.

Don't you believe you are a liar?

Don't you believe you infer data reckoning to support how right you claim you are? For egotism.

What about a story once we were not sick didn't need your medical meddling either.

What about the theme where did the saviour go....ice melt?

Seeing you pretended a human baby man was the saviour self and still exists is still here. Ice however is gone.

So then women had to do a self assessment on your personality beliefs.

So abused as you said maths was a woman title. So evilly kind of you liars. To still lie.

No he says I got hurt too.

Really? No one would think your sacrificed life claim by brother choice happened.

Oh because ownership greed motivated control reasons places me in that position. Self idolisation false preaching.

As in biology a presence conceived human man baby son dies save human lifes presence.

Being a human never saved anyone from Intense evil science caused sacrificed life suffering.

As science had in fact given us death. It never saved us.

Why you are so determined today to use medical biology advice against us in machine theisms.

Machine to machine
..machine never owned a man's life presence. Yet you theoried transmitted radio sounds created form.

And then do it by machine status claiming self human is now copying God the earth. History.

You own dust converting yourselves.

God never reacted it's dusts into a nuclear conversion. God only reacted sink holes.

So when men tried to convince life that it began from a minetal dust as we live using minerals he said no a nuclear dust reaction. Evil burning first.

Two places machine. Machine built from dusts. Machine used to react dusts.

Man's conscious self destroyed image now reflected as an alien controlling machines.

So he teaches the conscious mind is now psyche possessed by machine feedback. Science thinks it really created life as a God.

No longer do they claim I am just theorising telling beliefs versus other human stories. They claim their human theory invented life itself.

And claim it by machines.

Why a rational human says destroy all your machines and go back living a human life to prove self a liar and egotist only.

No he says I enjoy the lifestyle.

Rich men's game.

Does a man theorising claiming I own by my words what I look at your illness scientist? Yes

The reason he pretends anything he discusses somehow earths God body owns it. As man's science machine status begins with earth.

Yet earth is seen in the same human looking bio claim I see form plus machine looking status is just what form it is in space.

Space he says places it as a reaction in the past. By how much space he pretends exists between mass existing to when it gets removed. His science cause.

Reason. When I destroy earths mass it goes back into those types of star states he claims. As reactions.

Oh so they are destroyed O gods then and you are now trying to remove make vanish our God earth too?

Seeing you said O maths is the only law. O held presence first.

Reaction is second as a human scientist?

Seemingly you forget to use all of the natural life data and presence first before you pretend talk about anything else after.

What earth never was.

Ask a scientist so where did gods saviour man baby life of a stable DNA life biology both go?

It went back to gods body O earth.

How?

It melts under the sea too you know earth gas in underground cavities tunnels where water cools radiating stone mass first so earth won't explode.

As he depicts his thesis in total earth blasting into a God reaction by star study thesis...the thesis first earth a machine history theories the reaction.

As he did of course begin with earth first as a formula what it isn't.

Rock not being rock but just released radiation only.

God earth saviours went back to gods body as cold water to stop its tunnel exploding.

Yet still he lies about it. Man being the saviour of his scientists baby man's life.

No I am not lying. I just don't listen to my natural holy father's man's real advice.

Medical science says man needs woman not science. To be his life equal to continue existing. Sex being his human sin. As science sacrificed DNA existence in his own body.
 
On what basis do you think a non-expert can criticize the findings of a scientist and it be reliable?

On the basis of noticing errors in their approach, same as we do with everyone else. Scientists aren't some magical beings who are beyond reproach.

If everyone did as you suggest, the advancement of human knowledge would have been greatly held back over the centuries as people bowed down to self-proclaimed experts whose ideas seemed out of step with reality.

Could you take ANY headline that reports findings of any scientist and believe you have adequate understanding to criticize the results?

No, but you can sometimes identify the errors of scientists by looking at their clear statements and scientific publications.

On what basis do you suggest the scientist who did the study is the naive one? How would you improve the study to be more reliable?

Because we can look at all of the evidence we have, not simply limit ourselves to a single study, with clear limitations conducted by someone with limited experience in the field.

(I am operating under the assumption that you accept that some PEDs work and provide significant performance advantages)

Firstly, then where would you expect to find the world's premier experts on the effects of performance enhancing drugs?

A scientist trying to jump through ethical hurdles to conduct a limited study? Or the scientists like Ferrari and Fuentes (or their counterparts in other sports) with decades of real world experience with dozens of elite athletes and access to masses more data? Also note that these people have the ability to test EPO in conjunction with other drugs to improve the effects.

Given the attention to detail in the preparation of elite athletes, why should we assume, as the article author does, that these people are naive and know less than him about PEDs?

Who would you put money on being better informed?

Secondly, real world performance. In multiple athletic disciplines distance performances rocketed in the EPO era, before calming down a bit after EPO testing became available.

Third, all kinds of anecdotal data from people involved in pro-sport who talk about massive performance gains from using EPO.

Fourth, we know that some drugs work and that pro-athletes will basically experiment with anything to get an advantage. The idea that EPO was simply a placebo is much less likely when the same cyclist was taking EPO, testosterone, steroids, blood doping, etc. as well.

Fifth, we know from experience that magical mid-career transformations by elite athletes (Armstrong, Froome, etc) are more likely to be the result of cheating than be actual magical mid-career transformations. It was clear that LA was doping at the time he was winning, which required that some of his PED cocktail to actually be providing real benefits.

Sixth, we know that the person who is winning in a dirty strength/endurance sport is more likely to be dirty than clean as the margins between elite athletes are so small that the benefits of PEDs are greater than natural variations between the elites (see Flo-Jo's women's 100m world record from the steroid era for example). This impact is not simply placebo.

On their own, none of these points are definitive (although a few are very indicative). They are not independent of each other though, so the probabilities compound.

Taken together they offer far better evidence of the performance benefits of EPO than one, small limited study conducted on non-elite athletes.

When lab-based scientific studies don't seem to match real world realities, we should certainly be sceptical as to whether they are accurate.

How would you improve the study to be more reliable?

It's more the conclusions being overstated/insufficiently qualified.

Saying EPO doesn't work gets you the attention. It is mildly qualified in the paper, but not very much, and the quote from the lead scientist was expressing a high degree of certainty.

Saying EPO doesn't seem to work in these settings, but that means we are probably missing something and need to identify what that is doesn't make you as many headlines but is much better science.

If you are riding the coattails of experts in science and THEIR opinions, then that is a different scenario than what you have presented: a lay person reading findings and opposing them for non-expert reasons.

No. I'm talking about a lay person opposing them for non-expert reasons. The idea that only an expert can ever spot a mistake seems to be the opposite of critical thinking.

Have you really never noticed a mistake by an expert in a field you are not an expert in? I can't believe that.
 
The irony is that it is unscientific to blindly trust anything - including science.
Ironically, the scientific method is developed and structured in such way, specifically to NOT having to trust it "blindly".

What is the correct trust stance towards findings in a scientific field that replicates at <40%?

Science is very results based.
We can trust atomic theory is quite accurate because nukes explode.

Yes, but can you trust a social psychology paper because bombs explode?

When people give examples about the reliability of "science", they always go to the physical sciences, never the social sciences.

Funny that...
 
I think you have misunderstood what I asked. Why do you assume my confidence in science doesn't recognise it's limitations exactly?

Mostly because you've written thousands of words arguing against me saying scientism exists and is something we should be concerned about [Scientism is just excessive faith in the scope and accuracy of the sciences]

Now in this thread you are arguing against me saying that some sciences are vastly more reliable than other so we shouldn't simply "trust the science" but pay close attention to the particular science in question.

Actually I don't assume you don't know, I assume you misunderstood because you wrongly assumed I was a theist who was being "anti-science" and this lead to you arguing against a figment of your imagination. That's why i keep trying to correct you (alas, to no avail)

Good that you now agree with me :D

So what demonstrated the errors in results you are claiming were discovered? Only I have asked several times and you don't seem to want to answer?

I'm arguing that despite the fact that the sciences tend self-correct over time, and that people use scientific methods to identify the weaknesses of other scientific findings that the sciences still vary wildly in their accuracy and utility and still continually produce lots of false results that may not be identified and corrected for decades.

Talking if not answering questions, do you agree with the above?

And talking about another question you didn't answer, why do you think you are right and Weinberg, Einstein and Heisenberg are wrong about "The Scientific Method" being the true demarcation between science and non-science?

Why do you keep assuming I think it isn't possible to have excessive confidence in science? I have never claimed that. All I said is that the claim it is ubiquitous on here among atheists is untrue.

Just as well I never made that claim. Quote me if I did ;)

I've corrected you on this point twice already btw.

If a scientist, or a branch of science is demonstrated to be consistently publishing retractions about their work, then their reputation and the reputations of those who peer reviewed it would suffer no? So maybe some specific examples of these retractions would help, and why you think they represent a something broader about science, that you think I've missed?

1. Due to varying reliability, you need to think in terms of the sciences not simply "science"
2.

Data on how much of the scientific literature is reproducible are rare and generally bleak. The best-known analyses, from psychology1 and cancer biology2, found rates of around 40% and 10%, respectively.

73077_1526a6ddfa0461368598e848a6675803.png


1,500 scientists lift the lid on reproducibility - Nature

And on confidence from those within the field:

The Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) programme ‘Systematizing Confidence in Open Research and Evidence’ (SCORE) aims to generate confidence scores for a large number of research claims from empirical studies in the social and behavioural sciences. The confidence scores will provide a quantitative assessment of how likely a claim will hold up in an independent replication...

Moreover, they expect replication rates to differ between fields, with the highest replication rate in economics (average survey response 58%), and the lowest in psychology and in education (average survey response of 42% for both fields).

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsos.200566
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
What is the correct trust stance towards findings in a scientific field that replicates at <40%?



Yes, but can you trust a social psychology paper because bombs explode?

When people give examples about the reliability of "science", they always go to the physical sciences, never the social sciences.

Funny that...

I don't think that's funny. I think that's logical.
Especially when talking in context of the natural sciences, which is almost always the case on platforms such as this one... what with all the evolution deniers, noah flood believers, dating method deniers, etc. :rolleyes:
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
On the basis of noticing errors in their approach, same as we do with everyone else. Scientists aren't some magical beings who are beyond reproach.
And how does a non-expert know what the correct approach is better than an expert in science?

If everyone did as you suggest, the advancement of human knowledge would have been greatly held back over the centuries as people bowed down to self-proclaimed experts whose ideas seemed out of step with reality.
Explain what you mean. I advocate for ethics and reliability. How does that hinder anything but sloppiness?



No, but you can sometimes identify the errors of scientists by looking at their clear statements and scientific publications.
Sometimes? So perhaps just an error someone makes. You are being vague again.



Because we can look at all of the evidence we have, not simply limit ourselves to a single study, with clear limitations conducted by someone with limited experience in the field.
This is why replicating studies is important. In studies the one major element that has to be accounted for is variables that can skew results. There are many cases where a study fails because there were variables that were overlooked or not understood to be an influence. This is why scientists keep making changes to work towards the statistical minimum.

(I am operating under the assumption that you accept that some PEDs work and provide significant performance advantages)
PEDs can work, and in some cases you don't need a lot of benefit. Just a little bit of an advantage can help otherwise pretty equal athletes an edge. This is why the Olympics and WADA bans a long list of drugs and chemicals, some of which aren't even PEDs, but masking agents.

Firstly, then where would you expect to find the world's premier experts on the effects of performance enhancing drugs?
The hell if I know. But I know they are out there.

A scientist trying to jump through ethical hurdles to conduct a limited study? Or the scientists like Ferrari and Fuentes (or their counterparts in other sports) with decades of real world experience with dozens of elite athletes and access to masses more data? Also note that these people have the ability to test EPO in conjunction with other drugs to improve the effects.
If they are unethical they risk getting caught. Those people who are caught face criminal charges in Europe.

Given the attention to detail in the preparation of elite athletes, why should we assume, as the article author does, that these people are naive and know less than him about PEDs?
This probably falls into the sport psychology area. Many cyclists who have potential have to work harder and harder to get on pro teams. Good American cyclists who go race in Europe often get blown away. It's way harder racing in Europe than the USA. These guys are hungry and competitive. There is a big temptation to take PEDs just for that little extra edge. This is like job applications, and as we see in the USA and anywhere else, cheating is a big temptation and even acceptable. So as we can tell it is naive to think putting false claims on a job application won't get caught, or taking drugs thinking there will be big improvement.

So I defend the "naive" label having been a racer and just wanting that one little edge somehow. I never did PEDs but I did take herbs and magic potions of some sort (including 6 ounces of beer before races, which actually did help, but I don't do anymore). Now that I'm in my 50's I'm faster than i was at 30, and that is mostly better overall health, diet, and more relaxed mental state in competition. I can look back and see how i was naive.

Now feel free to explain your experience as an endurance athlete and how you weren't naive to seek any sort of advantage in competition.

Who would you put money on being better informed?
Experts.

Secondly, real world performance. In multiple athletic disciplines distance performances rocketed in the EPO era, before calming down a bit after EPO testing became available.
In the 90's with the Festina scandal and US Postal rising to fill the void EPO because the new drug because it was designed to increase red blood cells in cancer patients. There was no test for it then, so athletes all over the world doped up with it. Winning in cycling is BIG business. Just look at how businesses all over the world cheat for advantages. Sport was no different.

As tests came in the EPO had to be administered in microdoses. Even then it could still be detected, so the doctors had to assess the doses to the detection.

Third, all kinds of anecdotal data from people involved in pro-sport who talk about massive performance gains from using EPO.
Take it with a grain of salt. As I noted the "seat of the pants" assessments don't account for the psychological effects.

Fourth, we know that some drugs work and that pro-athletes will basically experiment with anything to get an advantage. The idea that EPO was simply a placebo is much less likely when the same cyclist was taking EPO, testosterone, steroids, blood doping, etc. as well.
From a study point of view if the athletes knew they could have the placebo, a 50% chance, that would offset any psychological boost in confidence.

Fifth, we know from experience that magical mid-career transformations by elite athletes (Armstrong, Froome, etc) are more likely to be the result of cheating than be actual magical mid-career transformations. It was clear that LA was doping at the time he was winning, which required that some of his PED cocktail to actually be providing real benefits.
I don't think you have any data for this. Many cyclists can flounder in their career and be signed by a new team and suddenly they have a banner year. Look at Cavendish in the Tour de France last year. He was washed up, and got signed by Quickstep, and only got named to the TdF team at the last minute due to their other sprinter having a problem. Cav won the Green Jersey and 4, maybe 5 stage wins. By your way of thinking it was drugs and cheating. You really have no clue about how important psychology is in cycling.

Look at Valverde on Movistar. Look at Nibali when he signed with Astana. There are many cases of racers who sign with new teams and management and do incredibly well.

Sixth, we know that the person who is winning in a dirty strength/endurance sport is more likely to be dirty than clean as the margins between elite athletes are so small that the benefits of PEDs are greater than natural variations between the elites (see Flo-Jo's women's 100m world record from the steroid era for example). This impact is not simply placebo.
This is why there are bans. You can't just accuse athletes whose training and life falls into place at some point in their career as cheating, not without evidence.

On their own, none of these points are definitive (although a few are very indicative). They are not independent of each other though, so the probabilities compound.

Taken together they offer far better evidence of the performance benefits of EPO than one, small limited study conducted on non-elite athletes.

When lab-based scientific studies don't seem to match real world realities, we should certainly be sceptical as to whether they are accurate.
The study you referenced only tested the advantages the EPO offers. There is no way to test this in competition since it is banned. Time trials are a good way to test the effects of drugs and equipment.



It's more the conclusions being overstated/insufficiently qualified.

Saying EPO doesn't work gets you the attention. It is mildly qualified in the paper, but not very much, and the quote from the lead scientist was expressing a high degree of certainty.

Saying EPO doesn't seem to work in these settings, but that means we are probably missing something and need to identify what that is doesn't make you as many headlines but is much better science.
They did a study. They published the results. You don't seem happy about it for some reason. You offer no criticisms about what is faulty about the study, or how you would improve it.


No. I'm talking about a lay person opposing them for non-expert reasons. The idea that only an expert can ever spot a mistake seems to be the opposite of critical thinking.

Have you really never noticed a mistake by an expert in a field you are not an expert in? I can't believe that.
Like wearing mismatched socks?

No I haven't. I doubt you have either. If a study makes it as far as being published then it has been reviewed by someone. A simple mistake will be caught.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I don't think that's funny. I think that's logical.
Especially when talking in context of the natural sciences, which is almost always the case on platforms such as this one... what with all the evolution deniers, noah flood believers, dating method deniers, etc. :rolleyes:

And the morality and ethics of how religion is bad. So is that done with evidence and/or rationality?
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
And the morality and ethics of how religion is bad. So is that done with evidence and/or rationality?
Do you mean like when we see Christians lie about evolution not having adequate evidence, and that they push a literalist interpretation of Genesis?

Or at the extreme, when Muslims hijack planes and fly them into buildings to do God's will against the West?

We observe these behaviors of humans under the influence of religion, we observe the negative effects, and should we not apply reason in assessing it?
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Do you mean like when we see Christians lie about evolution not having adequate evidence, and that they push a literalist interpretation of Genesis?

Or at the extreme, when Muslims hijack planes and fly them into buildings to do God's will against the West?

We observe these behaviors of humans under the influence of religion, we observe the negative effects, and should we not apply reason in assessing it?

Yes, but that is not all of religion.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Yes, but that is not all of religion.
But doesn't it make you wonder how religion can be such a dangerous and negative influence given what religion claims as a whole?

I'd be impressed if theists as a whole acted with a remarkable ethical and moral standard, as that would suggest they are onto something. But we don't.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
What is the correct trust stance towards findings in a scientific field that replicates at <40%?


Assuming we can give credence to the claim and the stat, I think that answers itself doesn't it? Just a couple of thoughts, what methodology did you use to arrive at those rates of failures? Are you saying you've got access to a method superior to science, but that is in fact not part of the scientific method? Oh I know the method doesn't exist, I'm afraid that strikes me as sophistry sorry.

Also, what happens to the reputation of scientists who produce that level of retractions after peer review, and to whoever peer reviewed the work? I mean how do you imagine credible scientists view kent Hovind's PhD he purchased from the creation movement? What about the creation institute, do think that is science?

So a branch of science is producing a high level of retractions, that makes that branch by definition unreliable, so that means their methods are less reliable than other branches of science no, is anyone here defending sloppy methods, and failures? I just don't accept that this is as widespread as some here seem to want to claim.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Survey shows that US atheists are overwhelmingly pro-vax

Survey shows that US atheists are overwhelmingly pro-vax

My guess is that this holds true for atheists everywhere. No?

I'd think any actual scientist would not be asking you to "trust the science".
For me, the potential benefits out weighed the potential detriments.
I'm certainly not denying any risks but decided the potential risk was acceptable.

I don't really know what trust the science means. It is the exact opposite of what is expected in science.
 
And how does a non-expert know what the correct approach is better than an expert in science?

When they notice a mistake.

The hell if I know. But I know they are out there.

Take an educated guess then, it's not rocket science.

How does one become an expert in something? Now which people are in the best position to gain this experience ethical scientists, or the unethical ones who help athletes to cheat?

Now feel free to explain your experience as an endurance athlete and how you weren't naive to seek any sort of advantage in competition.

You miss the point. I said that elite athletes and their doping doctors are not naive about the benefits of EPO as they have exponentially more evidence and data than the guy who conducted the study.


i.e. the top doping doctors

In the 90's with the Festina scandal and US Postal rising to fill the void EPO because the new drug because it was designed to increase red blood cells in cancer patients. There was no test for it then, so athletes all over the world doped up with it. Winning in cycling is BIG business. Just look at how businesses all over the world cheat for advantages. Sport was no different.

As tests came in the EPO had to be administered in microdoses. Even then it could still be detected, so the doctors had to assess the doses to the detection.

You are completely missing the point.

The researcher said EPO doesn't work. Tumbling endurance records in multiple sports when people started taking it says it most likely does work.

From a study point of view if the athletes knew they could have the placebo, a 50% chance, that would offset any psychological boost in confidence.

My point is the benefits of PEDs are not simply placebo, and evidence suggests this is true for EPO too.

I don't think you have any data for this. Many cyclists can flounder in their career and be signed by a new team and suddenly they have a banner year. Look at Cavendish in the Tour de France last year. He was washed up, and got signed by Quickstep, and only got named to the TdF team at the last minute due to their other sprinter having a problem. Cav won the Green Jersey and 4, maybe 5 stage wins. By your way of thinking it was drugs and cheating. You really have no clue about how important psychology is in cycling.

Understanding the benefits of PEDs v natural differences between elite athletes is very good data.

The best sprinter in history winning sprints against a weak field after a period out injured is not a magical mid-career transformation though.

A mid-career transformation is Lance, or Froome going from the brink of losing his job to the greatest stage racer of his generation basically instantly

Look at Valverde on Movistar. Look at Nibali when he signed with Astana. There are many cases of racers who sign with new teams and management and do incredibly well.

Both massive dopers

This is why there are bans. You can't just accuse athletes whose training and life falls into place at some point in their career as cheating, not without evidence.

Where you on the Lance train till the bitter end? "Most tested athlete in the world!" "I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles".

The evidence is they destroy other elite athletes who are massive dopers in sports where doping makes a big difference.

The study you referenced only tested the advantages the EPO offers. There is no way to test this in competition since it is banned. Time trials are a good way to test the effects of drugs and equipment.

That's the point.

Doping doctors and athletes test them in competition every single race. They almost certainly know better

They did a study. They published the results. You don't seem happy about it for some reason. You offer no criticisms about what is faulty about the study, or how you would improve it.

Because it's almost certainly wrong for reasons explained above. None of which you really addressed accurately.

No I haven't. I doubt you have either. If a study makes it as far as being published then it has been reviewed by someone. A simple mistake will be caught.

Christ you're naive.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
But doesn't it make you wonder how religion can be such a dangerous and negative influence given what religion claims as a whole?

No, it is natural as how to it is a consequence of human psychology and then relative to knowledge and technology. And there is no as a whole in religion.
This is also a religion: Unitarian Universalist Association | UUA.org

I'd be impressed if theists as a whole acted with a remarkable ethical and moral standard, as that would suggest they are onto something. But we don't.

Theists are not the only religious people. Here is a scholarly academic definition of religion:
"Religion is the most intensive and comprehensive method of valuing that is experienced by humankind."
The Definition of Religion

And here is another definition: religion | Definition, Types, List of Religions, Symbols, Examples, & Facts

And here is a religion that fits those two definitions:
"...
Definitions
Atheism is the comprehensive world view of persons who are free from theism and have freed themselves of supernatural beliefs altogether. It is predicated on ancient Greek Materialism.
Atheism involves the mental attitude that unreservedly accepts the supremacy of reason and aims at establishing a life-style and ethical outlook verifiable by experience and the scientific method, independent of all arbitrary assumptions of authority and creeds.
Materialism declares that the cosmos is devoid of immanent conscious purpose; that it is governed by its own inherent, immutable, and impersonal laws; that there is no supernatural interference in human life; that humankind, finding the resources within themselves, can and must create their own destiny. It teaches that we must prize our life on earth and strive always to improve it. It holds that human beings are capable of creating a social system based on reason and justice. Materialism’s ‘faith’ is in humankind and their ability to transform the world culture by their own efforts. This is a commitment that is, in its very essence, life-asserting. It considers the struggle for progress as a moral obligation that is impossible without noble ideas that inspire us to bold, creative works. Materialism holds that our potential for good and more fulfilling cultural development is, for all practical purposes, unlimited.
"
Our Vision

So those of us, who use more than just natural science as science can have a different opinion. And some of us are still atheists.
 

lukethethird

unknown member
I'd think any actual scientist would not be asking you to "trust the science".
For me, the potential benefits out weighed the potential detriments.
I'm certainly not denying any risks but decided the potential risk was acceptable.

I don't really know what trust the science means. It is the exact opposite of what is expected in science.
Science is an ongoing self correcting process, the alternative is on US coins, in God we trust, guess which one most atheists are going with.
 
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