In the Beginning...of What?

[sandy whitelinger]

OK! Then your questions are meaningless if they only relate to what it says in the Bible, because you believe the Bible is literal as is, and no further questions are necessary. Kind of intensely circular, but its your thread, and you have to deal with it.

Very authoritarian of you.

 

[shunyadragon]

Suck it up buttercup, this is a debate.

If it is truly a debate then it should deal openly with alternatives and other sources that relate to your questions asked. Unfortunately you chose to shut that down, and alas no substantive debate allowed.

 

[shunyadragon]

Very authoritarian of you.

No, just based on the historical, archaelogical, geological, and cosmological evidence. The evidence speaks for itself.

I am perfectly willing to dialogue concerning a coherent and logical discussion based on the evidence.

 

[Muffled]

The first the words of the Bible. Why does this mean the beginning of the universe?

I believe the beginning of the Universe produces the beginning of time which is what beginning usually means.

 

[Muffled]

It's a creation story, no different from the creation stories of other folklore. It's not meant to be taken literally.

I believe God doesn't speak in folklore.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Suck it up buttercup, this is a debate.

I see, and you don't want it to end.

 

[Muffled]

Ok, let's go a bit slower. I.know you know your Bible. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Why haven't we discovered the physicality of heaven?

I believe if you are actually referring to Heaven and not heaven then there is no physicality.

 

[Muffled]

It seems to me that the universe separated heaven from earth.

I believe since heaven is emptiness and creation is material then the creation of material causes a separation ie a dichotomy.

 

[Muffled]

It's pretty obviously a creation story, from the content of it.

I believe people who think things are obvious have no rational basis for their beliefs. The context is God and that is in the content and very much indicates something more than a story.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I believe if you are actually referring to Heaven and not heaven then there is no physicality.

KJV calls it heaven. Now if heaven has no physicality then why does everything else that was formed or created have physicality?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I believe since heaven is emptiness and creation is material then the creation of material causes a separation ie a dichotomy.

I agree that God created dichotomies. Yet one of the first dichotomies created was heaven and earth and yet it was earth that was formless and void not heaven.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I believe since heaven is emptiness and creation is material then the creation of material causes a separation ie a dichotomy.

Also, according to the text, the firmament of heaven (the second heaven) contained the celestial bodies. That's not emptiness.

So is the the firmament of heaven a product of the dichotomy.

Finally, are heaven and earth part of the dichotomy that was first mentioned as being created?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I see, and you don't want it to end.

Job 21:3

 

[David T]

Bingo! In the beginning. Face value.
Now, the next words, God created the heaven (singular in the English) and the earth. Where's heaven?

The kingdom of God is very very near. Its all about the apple.
I have a degree in theology. I am not in theology I only use theology now as a psychological tool to determine how individuals understand themselves. Theology as personal statement for me is absurd but as a tool to determine how we are understanding ourselves it's fantastic. I measure psychologists as they try and measure. They are cute.

So where is heaven? What is death?. As the story goes, female, starts humanity out from a world seen with zero death. There is no understanding in adam and eve about death as we understand death today just eternal life. Eve eats the apple, turns to Adam and Adam is confronted by "kill nature dead, or become extinct" i say a hell of a choice!!! Adam chose properly. The action to eat the apple rendered nature dead it killed that which we call God and that which we call nature by spliting it apart with us as the point of this determines that.In modern terms causality.

That today can be seen in religion and science. We have a dead sun, dead cosmos, dead dirt, dead sky dead air dead 99.9999999999% dead. So if nearly every aspect in science and in religion is dead then yep heaven is some reality outside dead reality, and since science insists reality is just dead random accidentalism one aspect affirms the other aspect.

SO you need to then process is reality actually dead? Or is that Normal" very Christian very atheistic, very scientific intellectalizing reality nonsensical bull****. I would say mother Mary and Mary Magdalene would totally agree it's bull****. How did the bull**** manifest itself into Christianity? It takes a lot of time out of culture in the forests away turn house into home. The garden of eden story is turning home into house, we now have to turn house into home. We are not home. Hildegard von Debingen said "we cannot live in an interpreted world, for an interpreted world is not home." I pay extremely close attention to females in Christianity. The have some of the most brilliant women in our history who have been very in touch with reality. Unfortunately we only get the nonsense of men being taught. Boys, are a stupid bunch. I am an expert on that.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

The kingdom of God is very very near. Its all about the apple.
I have a degree in theology. I am not in theology I only use theology now as a psychological tool to determine how individuals understand themselves. Theology as personal statement for me is absurd but as a tool to determine how we are understanding ourselves it's fantastic. I measure psychologists as they try and measure. They are cute.

So where is heaven? What is death?. As the story goes, female, starts humanity out from a world seen with zero death. There is no understanding in adam and eve about death as we understand death today just eternal life. Eve eats the apple, turns to Adam and Adam is confronted by "kill nature dead, or become extinct" i say a hell of a choice!!! Adam chose properly. The action to eat the apple rendered nature dead it killed that which we call God and that which we call nature by spliting it apart with us as the point of this determines that.In modern terms causality.

That today can be seen in religion and science. We have a dead sun, dead cosmos, dead dirt, dead sky dead air dead 99.9999999999% dead. So if nearly every aspect in science and in religion is dead then yep heaven is some reality outside dead reality, and since science insists reality is just dead random accidentalism one aspect affirms the other aspect.

SO you need to then process is reality actually dead? Or is that Normal" very Christian very atheistic, very scientific intellectalizing reality nonsensical bull****. I would say mother Mary and Mary Magdalene would totally agree it's bull****. How did the bull**** manifest itself into Christianity? It takes a lot of time out of culture in the forests away turn house into home. The garden of eden story is turning home into house, we now have to turn house into home. We are not home. Hildegard von Debingen said "we cannot live in an interpreted world, for an interpreted world is not home." I pay extremely close attention to females in Christianity. The have some of the most brilliant women in our history who have been very in touch with reality. Unfortunately we only get the nonsense of men being taught. Boys, are a stupid bunch. I am an expert on that.

A long and thoughtful reply. Thank you for the time and effort.

And I think I'm one of those boys. I really am trying to keep this simple. As a foil for my look at the beginning is the Taoist cosmology. Simply put it says out of the great emptiness arose the supreme ultimate which gave rise to the ten thousand things.

With that in mind, where does heaven fit in? Is it the great emptiness or the supreme ultimate or one of the ten thousand things?

 

[David T]

In the beginning means exactly what it means.
In Genesis 1:1, it's taking us back to a time way before this world that we live in came to be.
Back when the earth and heaven first came to be.
Back during the world of the dinosaurs. A time of over a Millions to Billions of years ago.
So in the beginning is in reference to that world that then was.

Yes. It's the pan shot in a movie. Creationism or Atheists for that matter never ask how did the author(S) know this "they" weren't there?. They read it like a scientific explanation. It should be extremely curious and important for those of faith to ask questions about what is going on in the shared dialog of creationism and science. That never happens because that requires questioning theology.

Theology is a great tool to determine nonsense across spectrum inside and outside religion. . Because theology itself is nonsense intellectual abstraction. It is not an adequate anything to explain the bible at all. Hell I use theology to measure psychologists. Talk about creationism. Multiverse? Creationism. Darwins interpretation which itself is a separate reality from life interconnected is just Creationism.. Reality as contained by the big bang creationism.
So most of our cultural dialog are a whole variety of creationism stories really. All myths arguing with each other which myth is true..

Jesus called bull**** on myths. He is the ground. He is the dirt he is the sky he is the air he is everything nature alive or extinction. Not that hard. How did Christianity revert to its pre Christian ways of killing nature dead and begin to just sit there chomping on that old dad apple once more? Christianity is very dead because all it knows is dead. I say wrong.... alive he is alive. Everything in totality alive. Alive gave birth to life eternal. Read Christian, the story about your song "how great thou art," nature gave the author that song. Nature breathed in, Inspired that song. Identical to the genisis story God breathed in inspired the clay. Jesus was all about breath.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I really am trying to keep this simple. As a foil for my look at the beginning is the Taoist cosmology. Simply put it says out of the great emptiness arose the supreme ultimate which gave rise to the ten thousand things.

Oh...so now you tell us that its got to be an answer in a particular category or its just excluded from your mind. Why didn't you tell us from the start that you had no intention of debating anything but that? Why the open question "What is Genesis 1 about?" and in Biblical debates, too.

 

[David T]

A long and thoughtful reply. Thank you for the time and effort.

And I think I'm one of those boys. I really am trying to keep this simple. As a foil for my look at the beginning is the Taoist cosmology. Simply put it says out of the great emptiness arose the supreme ultimate which gave rise to the ten thousand things.

With that in mind, where does heaven fit in? Is it the great emptiness or the supreme ultimate or one of the ten thousand things?

Lao tzu is one of my three ancient wise men I pay very very close attention to. They lived nearly at the same time. There is taoism, buddhism, and heraclitus in ancient Greece. Taoism is a major anchor for me. One could say it helped me to understand the ocean. Ursela leguin is an awesome author, a taoist and her left hand of darkness an amazing work. She's an amazing lady who lives near me. Taoism and early Christianity are deeply interconnected as well as all the major traditions. Modern Christianity is profound nonsense. But what can one expect fro. A religion who's founder is a female taught by men!!! That's why it articulates out today as pure fantasy in most but not all cases.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Oh...so now you tell us that its got to be an answer in a particular category or its just excluded from your mind. Why didn't you tell us from the start that you had no intention of debating anything but that? Why the open question "What is Genesis 1 about?" and in Biblical debates, too.

Well, because I'm looking at Genesis 1.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Lao tzu is one of my three ancient wise men I pay very very close attention to. They lived nearly at the same time. There is taoism, buddhism, and heraclitus in ancient Greece. Taoism is a major anchor for me. One could say it helped me to understand the ocean. Ursela leguin is an awesome author, a taoist and her left hand of darkness an amazing work. She's an amazing lady who lives near me. Taoism and early Christianity are deeply interconnected as well as all the major traditions. Modern Christianity is profound nonsense. But what can one expect fro. A religion who's founder is a female taught by men!!! That's why it articulates out today as pure fantasy in most but not all cases.

So far, I see no conflict between the Biblical account and Taoism. I'm therefore trying to deepen my understanding of Genesis as the narrow minded Biblist I claim to be.