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In the Beginning...

Etritonakin

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
sandy whitelinger said:
This is why I use the KJV it explains the three heavens. They were created in order.

The heaven where God was going to move to.

The firmament of heaven where the celestial bodies are.

The open firmament of heaven where the birds fly.
Click to expand...

I don't see where he moved anywhere from anywhere else.

Perhaps he just made something different of where he already was, as it were -or, more correctly, made something different of what he already was.

That which he creates, he essentially creates of himself -of all that he is.

If we are only a portion of all -and he is all -then he creates of himself rather than external to himself.
As this applies to our individuality, we are essentially a part of what he is -separated only logically.

Similarly, "where" means which part of himself he has caused to be in its present state -as there is technically nothing other than him.
 
sandy whitelinger

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Etritonakin said:
I don't see where he moved anywhere from anywhere else.

Perhaps he just made something different of where he already was, as it were.

Although.... That which he creates, he essentially creates of himself -of all that he is.

If we are only a portion of all -and he is all -then he creates of himself rather than external to himself.
As this applies to our individuality, we are essentially a part of what he is -separated only logically.
Click to expand...
I'm an all or nothing kind a guy.
 
sandy whitelinger

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Etritonakin said:
Not sure if you saw latest edit of that post
Click to expand...
I understand. Language is tricky. The verses do say that the Spirit of God moved on the face of the waters. At this point the waters encompassed both heaven and earth. The Spirit seemed to be the inkling that caused the second heaven to form between the heaven and the earth and separated the waters from above from the waters below. I see no reason not to think that it was Gods inkling that separated heaven and earth previously.

Now as to my op, I sure do long to go back to me and God being indistinguishable, before the separation began in Genesis 1:1. I'm offering to skip heaven and head back to like it was in verse 1:0
 
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Grandliseur

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
sandy whitelinger said:
And why will He need a new heaven later?
Click to expand...
You misunderstand what "new heaven and new earth" refers to.
There is nothing wrong with our physical heavens and earth.
2 Peter 3:
5 For this is hidden from them through their own wilfulness, that heavens were of old, and an earth, having its subsistence out of water and in water, by the word of God, 6 through which waters the then world, deluged with water, perished. 7 But the present heavens and the earth by his word are laid up in store, kept for fire unto a day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.​

The heavens and earth of old that perished - are clearly not the physical heavens and earth if you put a little effort into reading this and thinking about it. Peter is speaking using these a metaphors, the old earth that perished in the flood was the ungodly world of men back then, all perished except those on the ark. The old heavens that perished back then was the ruling class of fallen angels who had set up shop on earth and built our mega remains found around the world even now.

Satan is ruling this world, and is said to be the powers of the air, meaning he rules from space, he and his angels run about in their UFOs USOs, and have bases where ever they like, on the moon perhaps, in our seas, and in places hard to get to.
Ephesians 2:2 in which ye once walked according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience: .
Isaiah 24:
21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that Jehovah will punish the host of the high ones on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. 22 And they shall be brought together, as an assemblage of prisoners for the pit, and shall be shut up in prison, and after many days shall they be visited. 23 And the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed; for Jehovah of hosts shall reign on mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients in glory.​
The host in Isaiah here, of the high ones on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth, are what constitutes the present heavens and earth. The host of the high ones of high, satan and his fallen angels ruling our world now, shall be taken down and imprisoned for a 1000 years and then they after a little while shall be destroyed.

In this prophetic image, the word heavens then refer to the rulership of the angels from on high which shall be done away with. In their stead, a new heavenly rulership shall replace them, a new heavens, with Christ and his sub kings as rulers over the earth.



​
 
David T

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
sandy whitelinger said:
Ok, either you or I is all muddled up. Are you saying we won't know the answer to my op til we get there?
Click to expand...
Think of the bible as music lyrics with no melody. The melody is required to understand the lyrics. Theology attempts at creating melody but it's definitely not it. The text is art and very very unusual kind of writing and old at the same time.it's literally not understandable at all by any modern reasoning. Does that in and of itself make it invalid? It makes theology invalid.
 
sandy whitelinger

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Grandliseur said:
You misunderstand what "new heaven and new earth" refers to.
There is nothing wrong with our physical heavens and earth.
2 Peter 3:
5 For this is hidden from them through their own wilfulness, that heavens were of old, and an earth, having its subsistence out of water and in water, by the word of God, 6 through which waters the then world, deluged with water, perished. 7 But the present heavens and the earth by his word are laid up in store, kept for fire unto a day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.​

The heavens and earth of old that perished - are clearly not the physical heavens and earth if you put a little effort into reading this and thinking about it. Peter is speaking using these a metaphors, the old earth that perished in the flood was the ungodly world of men back then, all perished except those on the ark. The old heavens that perished back then was the ruling class of fallen angels who had set up shop on earth and built our mega remains found around the world even now.

Satan is ruling this world, and is said to be the powers of the air, meaning he rules from space, he and his angels run about in their UFOs USOs, and have bases where ever they like, on the moon perhaps, in our seas, and in places hard to get to.
Ephesians 2:2 in which ye once walked according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience: .
Isaiah 24:
21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that Jehovah will punish the host of the high ones on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. 22 And they shall be brought together, as an assemblage of prisoners for the pit, and shall be shut up in prison, and after many days shall they be visited. 23 And the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed; for Jehovah of hosts shall reign on mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients in glory.​
The host in Isaiah here, of the high ones on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth, are what constitutes the present heavens and earth. The host of the high ones of high, satan and his fallen angels ruling our world now, shall be taken down and imprisoned for a 1000 years and then they after a little while shall be destroyed.

In this prophetic image, the word heavens then refer to the rulership of the angels from on high which shall be done away with. In their stead, a new heavenly rulership shall replace them, a new heavens, with Christ and his sub kings as rulers over the earth.



​
Click to expand...
I was thinking that after all the elements melt with a fervent heat there was going to be a new heaven and a new earth.
 
sandy whitelinger

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
David T said:
Think of the bible as music lyrics with no melody. The melody is required to understand the lyrics. Theology attempts at creating melody but it's definitely not it. The text is art and very very unusual kind of writing and old at the same time.it's literally not understandable at all by any modern reasoning. Does that in and of itself make it invalid? It makes theology invalid.
Click to expand...
I'll take that as a yes.
 
Grandliseur

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
sandy whitelinger said:
I was thinking that after all the elements melt with a fervent heat there was going to be a new heaven and a new earth.
Click to expand...
Even in common speech, we use the word meltdown to denote a 100% stoppage of function, mental or otherwise. While it is clear that our times are suffering from global warming and that this may indeed cause great havoc on society, coastal capitals and large cities, the evacuation of perhaps entire countries if the water goes high as promised - this would cause a meltdown of things society vice. Just imagine if all of Denmark, Holland, and much of Europe had to move into Eastern Europe to avoid the rising waters. The global world as we know it would be gone. Before that, I am sure, wars would be fought as a result. Already, we are seeing the preparation for war, WWIII. Much of Asia with millions, or billions, living would also be affected. We are approaching a meltdown of things we take for granted.

The Bible says things that make me understand that about 90% of all living shall die. If I am right or wrong remains to be seen.
Just think what any serious problem would do to our money base. If money as in WWI lost their value, look at Germany's problem then, a whole wheelbarrow of money could not buy a loaf of bread - we would all be screwed. Total meltdown as in this world being consumed by heat and fire. (fire --> war, anarchy)
 
sandy whitelinger

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Grandliseur said:
Even in common speech, we use the word meltdown to denote a 100% stoppage of function, mental or otherwise. While it is clear that our times are suffering from global warming and that this may indeed cause great havoc on society, coastal capitals and large cities, the evacuation of perhaps entire countries if the water goes high as promised - this would cause a meltdown of things society vice. Just imagine if all of Denmark, Holland, and much of Europe had to move into Eastern Europe to avoid the rising waters. The global world as we know it would be gone. Before that, I am sure, wars would be fought as a result. Already, we are seeing the preparation for war, WWIII. Much of Asia with millions, or billions, living would also be affected. We are approaching a meltdown of things we take for granted.

The Bible says things that make me understand that about 90% of all living shall die. If I am right or wrong remains to be seen.
Just think what any serious problem would do to our money base. If money as in WWI lost their value, look at Germany's problem then, a whole wheelbarrow of money could not buy a loaf of bread - we would all be screwed. Total meltdown as in this world being consumed by heat and fire. (fire --> war, anarchy)
Click to expand...
Ok.
 
Etritonakin

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
sandy whitelinger said:
I understand. Language is tricky. The verses do say that the Spirit of God moved on the face of the waters. At this point the waters encompassed both heaven and earth. The Spirit seemed to be the inkling that caused the second heaven to form between the heaven and the earth and separated the waters from above from the waters below. I see no reason not to think that it was Gods inkling that separated heaven and earth previously.

Now as to my op, I sure do long to go back to me and God being indistinguishable, before the separation began in Genesis 1:1. I'm offering to skip heaven and head back to like it was in verse 1:0
Click to expand...
Actuallyyyyyyyyy.......

If you take many verses together -and the timeline thereof, it becomes clear that God created the heavens and earth in the beginning.... And THEN the earth BECAME waste and ruin for a reason not specified in that chapter, but hinted at in other scriptures (the demonic rebellion).
There is also an unspecified amount of time between the creation of the heavens and earth -and the earth becoming waste and ruin.
Therefore, that which follows the first vague statement is not the very beginning of the heavens or earth, but essentially a repair job in preparation for man.

The "morning stars" sang together -the "sons of God" shouted for joy at the creation of earth (Job)
Satan ascended "above the heights of the clouds" when he launched his rebellion. (Isaiah 14). When the rebellion was put down, he was again on Earth.
Therefore the Earth existed prior to the rebellion -and he had already rebelled before interacting with Eve in Eden.

When the spirit of God (how the Word created) moved on the face of the deep, the deep was already there before the first day of the seven.
What follows has been assumed to be the initial creation of the sun, moon, stars, etc., but, again, it was a matter of repair and relative repositioning.
The "war in heaven" was among beings with power over cosmic events -as angels have more powerful bodies than man (and it is stated that our future glorious bodies will be similar to that which allows the Word "to subdue all things unto himself")
Where there is war, things get broken -when there is that sort of war in heaven, the heavens get broken.
 
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MonkeyFire

MonkeyFire

Well-Known Member
Hell was created one day after God had spent an eternity with Perfection. God can't create or have new things.
 
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