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Incompleteness of Science proves Truth Holder

questfortruth

Well-Known Member
Introduction:

My contribution:

Suppose Dr. Gödel is wrong. In such case the probability to find [given unlimited research time and resources] the first way to prove the Riemann Hypothesis is perfect 100%. After that somebody will look for the second way to prove Riemann Hypothesis, like there are some people today, who look for "one page proof" of Fermat's Last Theorem. But because the number of ways to prove something is limited [surely, one can imagine infinite non-equivalent ways to prove the Pythagorean theorem during the infinite long development of science, but, there is non-vanishing probability, that there are or will be some theorems or hypothesises, which will never have infinite many proofs], then the probability to find the second proof of Riemann Hypothesis is less than 100%. But because the second way of proving Riemann Hypothesis could have been the first instead of the second, then it is wrong to assign to every first proof the perfect 100% probability. Therefore, the Dr. Gödel must be right.

Evidence: in 2020AD there are several ways to prove the Pythagorean Theorem, but only one way to prove the Fermat's Last theorem. Theorems with infinite ways of proving are not known yet.

Application to Astrobiology:

Same line of reasoning could tell us, that even having perfect conditions for life on an Earth-like planet, one does not have perfect 100% probability of abiogenesis.

Application to Theology: because there is gap between Absolute Truth and proof, then:
1. There must be God, who holds the Truth: e.g, Physics is incomplete without Metaphysics.
2. God is Spirit of Absolute Truth, because He knows all about Riemann Hypothesis even without any proofs.

 
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Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
It is incorrect to tell: "you have errors" without showing them first.
No its not. You're not even using the term "error" correctly. But anyway.

See you in the next thread where you claim to prove the existance of God by fundamentally understanding some other scientific principle.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Application to Theology: because there is gap between Absolute Truth and proof, then:
1. There must be God, who holds the Truth: e.g, Physics is incomplete without Metaphysics.
2. God is Spirit of Absolute Truth, because He knows all about Riemann Hypothesis even without any proofs.
Even though I'm a theist, the above simply are non-sequiturs.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Why? Because I am stupid, perhaps.
No, I'm not implying that, but what I am saying is that just because we cannot always determine what is an "Absolute Truth" doesn't mean there must have been a Creator.
Because the Science can not reach Omniscience, but definition of Science is Truth-seeking, then one must have Omniscient Being.
But that doesn't follow. Just because we may not know much about X doesn't mean that there had to be an "Omniscient Being".

To put it another way: Whatever is, is.
 

questfortruth

Well-Known Member
No, I'm not implying that, but what I am saying is that just because we cannot always determine what is an "Absolute Truth" doesn't mean there must have been a Creator.
But that doesn't follow. Just because we may not know much about X doesn't mean that there had to be an "Omniscient Being".

To put it another way: Whatever is, is.
1. The reality has sense,
2. Science is part of reality,
3. Science has absolutely no sense, if it can not answer all questions. If the complete picture is missing, then the Flat Earthers could be right: the see round Earth as hallucination, or evil deception.
4. Science can ask God. Thus, Science becomes complete. The Science has missed to get one Scientist: God.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Why? Because I am stupid, perhaps.

Perhaps, but all it really shows is that you don't understand how to construct a valid logical argument.

Because the Science can not reach Omniscience, but definition of Science is Truth-seeking, then one must have Omniscient Being.

Another non-sequitur and with an obviously false premiss to boot. Science is not truth-seeking by definition and even if it was, its (supposed) inability to reach omniscience doesn't imply that there is some being that is omniscient.

You also seem to be confusing recursively axiomatizable formal systems with science. Science never proves anything at all in the absolute mathematical sense that Gödel is talking about.
 

questfortruth

Well-Known Member
Another non-sequitur and with an obviously false premiss to boot. Science is not truth-seeking by definition and even if it was, its (supposed) inability to reach omniscience doesn't imply that there is some being that is omniscient.

You also seem to be confusing recursively axiomatizable formal systems with science. Science never proves anything at all in the absolute mathematical sense that Gödel is talking about.
I have written my own proof, it is not limited by mathematics of Gödel. It is more general. Please read the text. I became scientist (with publications in Physical Review E) not because Science does not look for Truth. For lies then?
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
1. The reality has sense

How do you know?

2. Science is part of reality

OK.

3. Science has absolutely no sense, if it can not answer all questions.

Nonsense. Science is about building models that match reality within their scope of operation.

If the complete picture is missing, then the Flat Earthers could be right: the see round Earth as hallucination, or evil deception.

We can never rule out the possibility that everything is an hallucination or deception, but that's a philosophical dead end that has nothing to do with science.

4. Science can ask God.

No, it can't. People might be able to but only if this "God" character actually exists and wanted to answer questions in a clear an unambiguous way (which doesn't seem to be the case).

Thus, Science become complete. The Science has missed to requite one Scientist: God.

This is nothing but a statement of your faith. None of what you've said leads to this conclusion.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
I have written my own proof, it is not limited by mathematics of Gödel. It is more general. Please read the text.

I did read the text, it's nonsense. If Gödel is wrong then it's possible to find a recursively axiomatizable system in which all theorems of number theory can be proved or disproved. Assuming we can find it, then there is one or more proofs (or dispoofs) of the Riemann hypothesis. If we find one then, if there's more than one, the probability that any one is the first is not 100%, so the whole thing falls apart. And, what's more, you seem to switch from perfection to probability in the space of a paragraph, so it doesn't even make the slightest sense as you've actually written it.
 

questfortruth

Well-Known Member
I did read the text, it's nonsense. If Gödel is wrong then it's possible to find a recursively axiomatizable system in which all theorems of number theory can be proved or disproved. Assuming we can find it, then there is one or more proofs (or dispoofs) of the Riemann hypothesis. If we find one then, if there's more than one, the probability that any one is the first is not 100%, so the whole thing falls apart. And, what's more, you seem to switch from perfection to probability in the space of a paragraph, so it doesn't even make the slightest sense as you've actually written it.
You missed the point. I do not care about probability of what the second proof is not the first. The order of proofs is not important. I argue, that probability to find the first proof (I am talking about true theories and hypothesis-es) is less than 100%, and probability to find the second proof is less than 100.
 
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icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
you are theist, I am theist, I have paper for God, why the trolling?

As an atheist, I'm more than happy to accept that billions of people have faith in some variation of supernatural god(s).

But as soon as you try to proof this using the scientific approach, you have to check your faith at the door, and constrain yourself to logically sound arguments.
 
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