India Just Got More Dangerous

[psychoslice]

Its a shame that there are still backward thinking in this world today, some places on the earth just never seem to grow up.

 

[oldbadger]

I did consider it, but I went to observe a trial in Canada. Controversial issue re. First nations sovereigntists. Their legal defense was rock solid but they were still "made an example of" and thrown in jail due to some extremely dodgy instructions to the jury from a crooked judge. I learned that the Canadian justice system can be very corrupt and political in some significant circumstances and it put me off.

It can be, and certainly has been, the same here.

I still believe in the jury system; in fact I have yet to be introduced to a better judicial system, but the mistakes and injustices do occur. Once upon a time I raged and ranted about our system............... :sad:

 

[oldbadger]

Its a shame that there are still backward thinking in this world today, some places on the earth just never seem to grow up.

It's 'all over'. Where you find folks you'll probably find crazy ideas and notions. Our 'Church of England' has got itself excluded from our new legislation about same-sex marriage, so the prejudice still reigns here.

I think that the situation in India is more serious than that of, say, Arizona, simply because in Arizona you might get excluded from some event or institution whereas in India the jail sentences could be very long.

But the changes and movements for an Egalitarian World are slowly progressing, and I can only hope that they will accelerate soon.

 

[psychoslice]

It's 'all over'. Where you find folks you'll probably find crazy ideas and notions. Our 'Church of England' has got itself excluded from our new legislation about same-sex marriage, so the prejudice still reigns here.

I think that the situation in India is more serious than that of, say, Arizona, simply because in Arizona you might get excluded from some event or institution whereas in India the jail sentences could be very long.

But the changes and movements for an Egalitarian World are slowly progressing, and I can only hope that they will accelerate soon.

And a big Amen to that.

 

[Reverend Rick]

What little I know about India, they have a caste system. There is no middle class. When they come to the States they have a hard time dealing with contractors. We work for a living so therefore we must not be upper class so we should work for nothing.

They love to negotiate and everything seems to be negotiable even after a deal is made.

My experience is not based on one person either, it seems to be a common trait. One guy had an arranged marriage. His family and her family picked them for each other.

Don't even get me started with Pakistanis

 

[oldbadger]

What little I know about India, they have a caste system. There is no middle class. When they come to the States they have a hard time dealing with contractors. We work for a living so therefore we must not be upper class so we should work for nothing.

They love to negotiate and everything seems to be negotiable even after a deal is made.

My experience is not based on one person either, it seems to be a common trait. One guy had an arranged marriage. His family and her family picked them for each other.

Don't even get me started with Pakistanis

For some years I worked closely with a guy whose Mum and Dad had emigrated from Pakistan. My colleague traveled to Pakistan and made marriage arrangements for his nine year old daughter. He boasted to me that it was worth a house. He was one of the most prejudiced guys I ever met. He once visited another work colleague at his home, and after he had been there for over an hour it was discovered that he had left his wife in the car outside. He would not bring her inside no matter what the hosts said.

We've got a long way to go in the West, sure, but some countries......

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

What little I know about India, they have a caste system. There is no middle class. When they come to the States they have a hard time dealing with contractors. We work for a living so therefore we must not be upper class so we should work for nothing.

What does varNAshrama have to do with being middle class? In case you didn't know, brAhmaNa-s on average aren't exactly richer than other caste groups:
[youtube]4k65p7H-44Y[/youtube]

They love to negotiate and everything seems to be negotiable even after a deal is made.

Meh, perhaps some but not all. bhAratiya-s do have an obsession with bargaining though, although I'm not sure if that's what you're talking about.

My experience is not based on one person either, it seems to be a common trait. One guy had an arranged marriage. His family and her family picked them for each other.

Arranged marriages are common among most South Asian groups, I'll agree on that.

Don't even get me started with Pakistanis

Considering I'm Pakistani, I'm interested in what you think...

 

[Poeticus]

What little I know about India, they have a caste system. There is no middle class. When they come to the States they have a hard time dealing with contractors. We work for a living so therefore we must not be upper class so we should work for nothing.

They love to negotiate and everything seems to be negotiable even after a deal is made.

My experience is not based on one person either, it seems to be a common trait. One guy had an arranged marriage. His family and her family picked them for each other.

Don't even get me started with Pakistanis

Howdy, Rick:

I hope you may be kind as to allow me to offer a few thoughts:

There is a vibrant middle class in India, especially in the metropolitan areas. All of my aunts and uncles back in India are Upper-Middle Class.

A decade ago, many of those that were Low-to-Middle-Middle Class sought citizenship in countries such as the USA and the UK, and moved out. However, a lot of them, especially from the state that I am from or that I originate from, Gujarat, India, have financially grown to be very well established in these past ten years. There is a vibrant Middle Class growing in India, especially in highly developing Indian states such as Gujarat. So much that many Indian American males and females are now finding it difficult to find suitable marriage partners back in India, because a lot of males and females back in those metropolitan areas of India are now more settled financially than various Indian Americans. What seemed to be an opportunity that slightly resembles hypergamy, now seems to have fizzled away for the "I'm content now with what I have and I don't need to move to a different country; I have acquired a degree or two here and seem to be making sufficient money for myself and my family". Even though the country may be developing, arranged marriages are staying strong, and many females and males opt for an arranged marriage than a 'love marriage', even though most of my cousins had a 'love marriage' than an arranged marriage. Personally, I'd prefer an arranged marriage for myself for socio-cultural reasons. But, my 'birth-map' [janam patrikā] states that I will have a 'love marriage' with a female outside of my ethno-linguistic community - with someone from the Indian South. I think that is very cool. I have always found people of the Indian South to be very beautiful and colorful.

Regarding experiences you have had with various Indian ethno-linguistic groups that you may have encountered and their aptitude to negotiate on everything...yes, you are right - many Indians are stringent, yet potent, negotiators. This is a social-related trait that many develop from childhood when they grow up buying food or household-related items from street kiosks near their neighborhoods or homes. The vendors have a tendency to start off at a relatively high price, and the buyers work their way down. This is a popular layout in most areas of India that are proto-suburban, so to speak.

I grew up in the US since I was very young - I'm in my very early 20s currently. I find various aspects of Indian social life as strange as many American 'natives' do due to a subconscious abiding of a Western socio-cultural paradigm that I have identified with since a very young age. But, how I have handled these socio-cultural differences is entirely a different matter that can turn very pedagogic. But, I can say that in many instances, arranged marriages are not wrong or evil or backwards, especially when in most cases they are between two consenting adults. They are not entirely just a phenomenon of the Subcontinent. They occur globally, and not just amongst ethno-linguistic groups that are Indians living abroad, but amongst quite a diverse range of varying ethno-linguistic groups from different parts of the world.

Regarding the topic of the OP, RF member NYK created a thread in the HinduDIR in order to acquire statements of how RF Indian Hindu members feel about this travesty. You are more than welcomed to take a look at the conversation that occurred therein.

~I pray for the wellbeing and safety of my LGBTQ brothers and sisters in India; and I hope that the Indian courts soon eradicate this draconian colonial-era penal code in order to stay true to the social and religious secularism they self-proclaim is an integral part of 'Secular India'.~

 

[Reverend Rick]

What does varNAshrama have to do with being middle class? In case you didn't know, brAhmaNa-s on average aren't exactly richer than other caste groups:
[youtube]4k65p7H-44Y[/youtube]

Meh, perhaps some but not all. bhAratiya-s do have an obsession with bargaining though, although I'm not sure if that's what you're talking about.

Arranged marriages are common among most South Asian groups, I'll agree on that.

Considering I'm Pakistani, I'm interested in what you think...

I have had business dealings with two different Pakistani doctors here in the States. One, the husband would make a deal and when I sent the bill, the wife would try to reduce the bill. They kept double teaming me and I quit doing business with them.

Her father came to visit and we really got along great. He was a fighter pilot.

The other is the kindest nicest man I have ever met. We have had a few religious discussions and I have done several projects for him and would do more for him again, but he stills tries to get me to do more and more for the same price. I like him so much, I feel bad when I have to charge him more or not do these things.

The first guy stiffed me on a job and did not pay for some of the work. He had a selective memory on what we discussed. Later he wanted me to come back and do some more. Sorry, Once shame on you. Twice shame on me.

 

[Revoltingest]

I have had business dealings with two different Pakistani doctors here in the States. One, the husband would make a deal and when I sent the bill, the wife would try to reduce the bill. They kept double teaming me and I quit doing business with them.
Her father came to visit and we really got along great. He was a fighter pilot.
The other is the kindest nicest man I have ever met. We have had a few religious discussions and I have done several projects for him and would do more for him again, but he stills tries to get me to do more and more for the same price. I like him so much, I feel bad when I have to charge him more or not do these things.
The first guy stiffed me on a job and did not pay for some of the work. He had a selective memory on what we discussed. Later he wanted me to come back and do some more. Sorry, Once shame on you. Twice shame on me.

I've never been a landlord to Indians or Pakistanis, but I have noticed that immigrants from the mid-east are the worst commercial tenants. (An Iraqi plastic surgeon was my worst nightmare.) Once we agree to all the terms & sign a lease, that's when they want to start negotiations. I no longer rent to them to people who come from a culture with such a radically different sense of ethics. Contractors I know juice up their bids to such people because they know they'll never be paid in full.
Good story:
A local mason gave a bid to a lawyer, who wanted to know if the work can be done for less. The mason responded....
"This isn't a ******* hobby! This is a ******* business!"

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

I've never been a landlord to Indians or Pakistanis, but I have noticed that immigrants from the mid-east are the worst commercial tenants. (An Iraqi plastic surgeon was my worst nightmare.) Once we agree to all the terms & sign a lease, that's when they want to start negotiations. I no longer rent to them to people who come from a culture with such a radically different sense of ethics. Contractors I know juice up their bids to such people because they know they'll never be paid in full.
Good story:
A local mason gave a bid to a lawyer, who wanted to know if the work can be done for less. The mason responded....
"This isn't a ******* hobby! This is a ******* business!"

Well, India and Pakistan aren't even a part of the Middle East (you seem to be implying that Indians and Pakistanis are Middle-Easterners).
This is the Middle East (dunno why they didn't include Yemen though):

This is South Asia (I like this map because it displays all of kashmIr as apart of bhArat even though that's not true, ):

Don't you Americans pay attention in geography class? Sheesh!
Just kidding...

 

[Revoltingest]

Well, India and Pakistan aren't even a part of the Middle East.

I agree with you.
I thought I made a clear distinction between the mid-east & the India-Pakistan area.
But it seems I failed.

Don't you Americans pay attention in geography class? Sheesh... Just kidding...

I'm an expert in geography.
After all, I'm the one here who figured out that Australia is a myth, & doesn't actually exist.
Just look at the critters they claim live there. Who would buy such nonsense?

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

I'm an expert in geography.
After all, I'm the one here who figured out that Australia is a myth, & doesn't actually exist.
Just look at the critters they claim live there. Who would buy such nonsense?

Speaking of Australian animals, do these Koalas look like they're mating or is that just me?:

 

[Revoltingest]

Speaking of Australian animals, do these Koalas look like they're mating or is that just me?:

I only see good friends.
Clearly, you have a dirty mind.

 

[satyaroop]

I'm an expert in geography.
After all, I'm the one here who figured out that Australia is a myth, & doesn't actually exist.

hmmmm...we know that both australia and agartha claim to be the "land down under"

 

[Omkara]

India's gay community scrambling after court decision recriminalises homosexuality - Asia - World - The Independent

The amount of nonsensical reportage in the foreign media about a country that constitutes 1/7 th of humanity is just shocking.

There have been less than a hundred convictions under this law over two centuries, and most of those were in the colonial era. Most of the convictions were cases of bestiality (the law targets 'unnatural sex' not homosexuality).

Also, the court did not 'uphold' the law, it ruled that repealing the law was the prerogative of Parliament, not the courts.

 

[Omkara]

You would think that these 3rd world cesspits would be attempting to catch up to the more developed, modernized, and enlightened 1st world nations. You would think they would stop, take a step back, and contemplate what it is about their culture that's holding them behind.

You betray your own ignorance of history with this nonsensical diatribe. India was the world's largest economy for 16 of the last 20 centuries. India gave women the right to vote over a decade before the West.

The contentious law in question was imposed by a foreign colnial power. There was no persecution of sexual minorities in India before that, unlike in the west.

let's not forget the heinous rape epidemic going on over there, as well.

Nonsense. India has one of the lowest rape per capita rates in the world.

 

[Nyingjé Tso]

Vanakkam,

I've traveled several time to India and lived some months here. As far as I'm aware, nobody raped me or even tried to assault me.

While I do not approve what is happening, nor want to idealize India as a perfect country, which is not, I think there are many ways to express an opinion without sinking into the easy bashing.

There are the things you want to say. And then there are the WAY to say it.

And the best way is to keep a minimum of respect for Indian members of this forum, and stop talking when our own ignorance begins.

You local Bengladeshi waiter at your favorite Indian restaurant is not representative of the whole Indian people. Stop talking about how horrible, terrible, full of idiots, rapists, diseases, cheaters and whatever are the people in India when you never step a SINGLE FOOT in this country.

I think this tread was supposed to open a debate, not bashing an entire country.

 

[Sunstone]

The human capacity to increase its own suffering beyond what nature itself seems to require of us seems infinite.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think this tread was supposed to open a debate, not bashing an entire country.

Aye, we especially want to hear the Indian perspective.

Personally, I like many things about India (even though I've never been there) & the
many people I've known from there. Thus, this news was all the more distressing.