Inner and Outer Bible Meanings - Results in Untruthfulness

[Doubter]

All traditional churches are esoteric in nature. That is, their authoritative writings are presented as having inner meanings for the initiated and an outer or literal meaning for the uninitiated. With Christianity, for example, the inner meanings have long been forgotten and people have now been reduced to guessing. In any event, trying to present multiple uncertain meanings as being truthful is dishonest.

In the case of the Bible, the writers themselves point out that the literal meaning is for the profane or uninitiated and the inner or true meaning is reserved for the chosen. In the case of Jesus talking to his disciples he says outright that they will know the secrets of the parables, but non-disciples will not.

Some examples using the Revised Standard Version of the Bible follow:

1) Mark 4:11- When asked about the parable, Jesus said that the disciples have been given the secret of God, but for those outside, everything is in parables; they may see, but not perceive; they may hear, but not understand.

2) John 16:25 - I have said this to you in figures (i.e. parables); the hour is coming when I shall no longer speak to you in figures, but tell you plainly of the Father.

3) Matthew 13: 1-23 - The Parable of the Sower

The parable of the sower that Jesus told to a great crowd must be explained to the disciples since the meaning certainly is not obvious. When asked by his disciples about using parables Jesus answered “that to you is given the secrets of heaven, but to them it has not been given”

Jesus is saying outright that only the disciples will understand his message. It is promised in John 16 that some time in the future the communication will be clear, but has not been up to now. Christianity, of course, centers around Jesus, but Jesus says openly to Christians that you will not understand what I am saying. His message is very clear. The question is - Why do Christians depend of the Bible as an authoritative writing when they are told by Jesus that they will not understand it?

People depend on Bible scholars to interpret the esoteric writings of the Bible, i.e. accept the word of experts. People should not fool themselves into believing experts - Jesus said that his teachings would be made clear to his disciples, not experts after two thousand years. By getting into the mindset of accepting the word of experts, society suffers from having members accepting the word of experts rather than developing critical thinking skills.

Esoteric religions that depend on multiple possible meanings are inconsistent with honesty. In fact, they become a untruthful environment for their members. Trying to translate old, esoteric writings is nothing more than guessing.

Since existing esoteric religions are not based on truthfulness; an alternative would be the formation of philosophical communities based on honesty with its authoritative writings clearly stated in the language of its adherents vs. the dishonest nature of esoteric religious groups. The members of philosophical communities would be assured that other members were truthful. These philosophical communities could be secular or religious, but would not be esoteric since esotericism is not consistent with an honest culture.

Is the Bible revealing that it cannot be understood and that possibly other options should be considered?


Doubter

 

[Kemosloby]

Because he wanted to keep some of the Jews in the dark, unable to believe. That was part of spreading the gospel to the Gentiles, and bring salvation to all nations, Like the promise says, "a blessing to all nations".

 

[Brickjectivity]

You pose a good question, and I will disagree with your tentative thought about it as clearly as I can:

Is the Bible revealing that it cannot be understood and that possibly other options should be considered?

No, however the NT should not be treated like a textbook, like it has been. Also the Bible is Torah centric, so a big part of the confusion here is that it is being treated as if the Torah is an attachment. That is why it appears esoteric and can be claimed to be esoteric by clergy, whose livelihoods benefit from keeping a layer of mysticism in everything. Power and influence come from dividing people and confusing them, not from comforting and uniting them. Therefore we have 'Esoterism' vs 'Dumb hick theology', which seems like simple dishonesty.

In the case of the Bible, the writers themselves point out that the literal meaning is for the profane or uninitiated and the inner or true meaning is reserved for the chosen.

I do not agree. That is a modern conspiratorial interpretation I think. No, the blame lies squarely with clergy. The clergy will claim that there is an esoteric meaning that you need them to interpret. The last thing they will consider is that there is no need for themselves.

1) Mark 4:11- When asked about the parable, Jesus said that the disciples have been given the secret of God, but for those outside, everything is in parables; they may see, but not perceive; they may hear, but not understand.

We can return to this later, but this story is performing a re-enactment of an event recorded in Isaiah in which Israel is threatened with spiritual blindness. Jesus is not at all suggesting that people should not understand. No, Jesus emphasis is the opposite of what you are suggesting. He wants full disclosure; and in this story the people are kept in the dark as a punishment for not doing what they should, mirroring what happens in Isaiah. The implication is that if we are in the dark it is a punishment, not the norm; not that ignorance is the norm.

2) John 16:25 - I have said this to you in figures (i.e. parables); the hour is coming when I shall no longer speak to you in figures, but tell you plainly of the Father.

We can return to this later, but Jesus is speaking of Logos and the promised holy spirit. Consider James 1 which talks about how directly God can reveal wisdom to a person who both hears what is right and does what is right. This is not at all suggesting that truth ought to be limited by layers of secrets, and I think James is representative of how Jesus views things. I do grasp that we cannot learn everything at once and have to have personal growth. That is far, far different from purposely stunting someone's ability to learn.

3) Matthew 13: 1-23 - The Parable of the Sower

This is the clearer example. What Jesus says is hidden from the crowd in the story but is not at all intended to be hidden from you, the reader. You aren't supposed to be struggling with it. The seed is not knowledge but the kingdom, and note that Jesus does not say its knowledge. He says the seed is the kingdom of God but that if your heart is not right then seeing you do not see and hearing you do not hear. Yes the people in the story do not grasp his parable, but its not puzzles that you and I are faced with. We know what we should do and have the Holy Spirit. We are not faced with parables but with seeing what we see and hearing what we hear and doing what we know we should.

Jesus entire ministry opposes the concept of teacher-student discipleship. He tips the discipleship boat, picking 12 random and ill-selected people to be his disciples, then refuses to fully train them. He says that they will get the holy spirit instead. Central to this Jesus dies and leaves us all to figure out what to do next, without instructions: not with esoteric instructions but zero instructions.

 

[danieldemol]

All traditional churches are esoteric in nature. That is, their authoritative writings are presented as having inner meanings for the initiated and an outer or literal meaning for the uninitiated. With Christianity, for example, the inner meanings have long been forgotten and people have now been reduced to guessing. In any event, trying to present multiple uncertain meanings as being truthful is dishonest.

In the case of the Bible, the writers themselves point out that the literal meaning is for the profane or uninitiated and the inner or true meaning is reserved for the chosen. In the case of Jesus talking to his disciples he says outright that they will know the secrets of the parables, but non-disciples will not.

Some examples using the Revised Standard Version of the Bible follow:

1) Mark 4:11- When asked about the parable, Jesus said that the disciples have been given the secret of God, but for those outside, everything is in parables; they may see, but not perceive; they may hear, but not understand.

2) John 16:25 - I have said this to you in figures (i.e. parables); the hour is coming when I shall no longer speak to you in figures, but tell you plainly of the Father.

3) Matthew 13: 1-23 - The Parable of the Sower

The parable of the sower that Jesus told to a great crowd must be explained to the disciples since the meaning certainly is not obvious. When asked by his disciples about using parables Jesus answered “that to you is given the secrets of heaven, but to them it has not been given”

Jesus is saying outright that only the disciples will understand his message. It is promised in John 16 that some time in the future the communication will be clear, but has not been up to now. Christianity, of course, centers around Jesus, but Jesus says openly to Christians that you will not understand what I am saying. His message is very clear. The question is - Why do Christians depend of the Bible as an authoritative writing when they are told by Jesus that they will not understand it?

People depend on Bible scholars to interpret the esoteric writings of the Bible, i.e. accept the word of experts. People should not fool themselves into believing experts - Jesus said that his teachings would be made clear to his disciples, not experts after two thousand years. By getting into the mindset of accepting the word of experts, society suffers from having members accepting the word of experts rather than developing critical thinking skills.

Esoteric religions that depend on multiple possible meanings are inconsistent with honesty. In fact, they become a untruthful environment for their members. Trying to translate old, esoteric writings is nothing more than guessing.

Since existing esoteric religions are not based on truthfulness; an alternative would be the formation of philosophical communities based on honesty with its authoritative writings clearly stated in the language of its adherents vs. the dishonest nature of esoteric religious groups. The members of philosophical communities would be assured that other members were truthful. These philosophical communities could be secular or religious, but would not be esoteric since esotericism is not consistent with an honest culture.

Is the Bible revealing that it cannot be understood and that possibly other options should be considered?


Doubter

The interpretation of esoteric scriptures remains with God, therefore further divine Messengers are capable of bringing the explanation of the esoteric scriptures to us.

 

[Doubter]

Because he wanted to keep some of the Jews in the dark, unable to believe. That was part of spreading the gospel to the Gentiles, and bring salvation to all nations, Like the promise says, "a blessing to all nations".

The problem is that not only were the Jews kept in the dark but also anyone trying to understand the Bible in modern times.

 

[Doubter]

You pose a good question, and I will disagree with your tentative thought about it as clearly as I can:

No, however the NT should not be treated like a textbook, like it has been. Also the Bible is Torah centric, so a big part of the confusion here is that it is being treated as if the Torah is an attachment. That is why it appears esoteric and can be claimed to be esoteric by clergy, whose livelihoods benefit from keeping a layer of mysticism in everything. Power and influence come from dividing people and confusing them, not from comforting and uniting them. Therefore we have 'Esoterism' vs 'Dumb hick theology', which seems like simple dishonesty.

I do not agree. That is a modern conspiratorial interpretation I think. No, the blame lies squarely with clergy. The clergy will claim that there is an esoteric meaning that you need them to interpret. The last thing they will consider is that there is no need for themselves.

We can return to this later, but this story is performing a re-enactment of an event recorded in Isaiah in which Israel is threatened with spiritual blindness. Jesus is not at all suggesting that people should not understand. No, Jesus emphasis is the opposite of what you are suggesting. He wants full disclosure; and in this story the people are kept in the dark as a punishment for not doing what they should, mirroring what happens in Isaiah. The implication is that if we are in the dark it is a punishment, not the norm; not that ignorance is the norm.

We can return to this later, but Jesus is speaking of Logos and the promised holy spirit. Consider James 1 which talks about how directly God can reveal wisdom to a person who both hears what is right and does what is right. This is not at all suggesting that truth ought to be limited by layers of secrets, and I think James is representative of how Jesus views things. I do grasp that we cannot learn everything at once and have to have personal growth. That is far, far different from purposely stunting someone's ability to learn.

This is the clearer example. What Jesus says is hidden from the crowd in the story but is not at all intended to be hidden from you, the reader. You aren't supposed to be struggling with it. The seed is not knowledge but the kingdom, and note that Jesus does not say its knowledge. He says the seed is the kingdom of God but that if your heart is not right then seeing you do not see and hearing you do not hear. Yes the people in the story do not grasp his parable, but its not puzzles that you and I are faced with. We know what we should do and have the Holy Spirit. We are not faced with parables but with seeing what we see and hearing what we hear and doing what we know we should.

Jesus entire ministry opposes the concept of teacher-student discipleship. He tips the discipleship boat, picking 12 random and ill-selected people to be his disciples, then refuses to fully train them. He says that they will get the holy spirit instead. Central to this Jesus dies and leaves us all to figure out what to do next, without instructions: not with esoteric instructions but zero instructions.

 

[Doubter]

You reinforce my point by saying that the clergy profits from esotericism. If the Bible were not esoteric, people would not be so dependent upon religious interpretation.

I agree with you that Jesus wants full disclosure, i.e. truth as stated in John 16:25. The problem is that at the time of Jesus’ death, truth had not been achieved in communication.

You say that - “Jesus dies and leaves us all to figure out what to do next, without instructions: not with esoteric instructions but zero instructions.” Many people consider the Bible to be the instructions.

 

[Brickjectivity]

You reinforce my point by saying that the clergy profits from esotericism. If the Bible were not esoteric, people would not be so dependent upon religious interpretation.

I agree with you that Jesus wants full disclosure, i.e. truth as stated in John 16:25. The problem is that at the time of Jesus’ death, truth had not been achieved in communication.

You say that - “Jesus dies and leaves us all to figure out what to do next, without instructions: not with esoteric instructions but zero instructions.” Many people consider the Bible to be the instructions.

I think where we agree is the clergy take advantage of esoterism. Where we disagree is that I think they invent the problem in order to be its solution. You seem to deflect blame from where it lies and place it onto the Bible, but the Bible is plainly screaming for people to read the Torah and think on it daily, which they do not do. A minimal fair path is to read it with understanding before proceeding to read all the commentary about it. Its insupportable to refuse to study it and then insist all the commentary is esoteric, secretive and problematic when the problem is that people do not study the center. Its so central that its like the arithmetic in a Calculus course, and analogously all of Calculus does appear esoteric if you haven't learned arithmetic.

 

[Tumah]

Esoteric religions that depend on multiple possible meanings are inconsistent with honesty. In fact, they become a untruthful environment for their members. Trying to translate old, esoteric writi

Not all esoteric writings rely on guesswork to interpret them. Some rely on traditions not included in the text, so as to maintain its opacity to all but those initiated by the traditions.